1850p for a tournament coming up...

Hi ya´ll!

It´s been a while, but i´ve been playing strictly with Dark Eldar now for a couple of months. I have an upcoming tournament next month and this is the list i´m most likely bringing.

HQ

Archon (Agoniser,Blaster,SF,WWP,Haywire)
Court of Archon (4 x Medusae)
Venom (dual cannons)

TROOP

5 x Warriors (Blaster)
Venom (dual cannons)

5 x Warriors (Blaster)
Venom (dual cannons)

5 x Warriors (Blaster)
Venom (dual cannons)

FAST

5 x Scourges (4 x Haywire Blaster)

FORMATIONS

Corpsethief Claw (all with Ichor Injectors/cannons)

Dark Artisan
Haemonculus (Liquifier Gun, WWP) WARLORD
Talos ( Ichor Injector/cannon)
Cronos (Spirit Probe)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1850p exactly...

I´ve lost the first two games (11-5 & 9-5) with this list, against very tricky Marine -based Tournament lists. First game, i lost mainly due to my VERY poor deployment and the second was lost due to my poor choosing of table side. I use these "excuses", cos the points really don´t show, how tight the games were. Tournament uses Maelstrom,Eternal,KP´s and secondaries and has the point spread calculating system.

Next Tuesday, same list, going against Necrons at least (hope to get another game in also) and i´ll keep you posted, how the list does fare...

- Lost Vyper

I don't think you need a WWP on the dark artisan formation. That means it can NEVER charge before turn 3. If you walk/run up the board, it's possible to charge turn 1 if your opponent strays too close, and you'll be able to run up to anything you would have been able to WWP to just by moving+running till turn 3. Also, liquifier guns suck now, and are severely overpriced. So these are the changes I'd make:

Drop the WWP and Liquifier Gun from the Haemy. +50
Drop the blasters from your warrior squads(more efficient) +45
Drop the haywire grenade from the Archon(he already has a blaster) +5
Finally, and this one hurts: drop 1 medusae from that unit +25

Use the 125 points you now have to buy a triple lance Ravager. Said Ravager will be just as productive as the AT you gave up to get it, while providing an additional AV11 target for your opponent to deal with. The warriors will then be specialized with splinter weapons, so you'll have no question as to what they should target.

Tactically, this is what I would say:

Well, first, I'd say taking the corpsthief claw is pretty expensive for what it does for you. But if you're definitely taking it, you should bear in mind that it's not always best to outflank with it. Especially since you have the dark artisan formation. I'd plan on keeping everything except the dusa bomb back at the left and right flanks of the Talos, shooting while using their presence to deter anything coming too close. If you stretch the CC formation out in a line, scout it forward 5 1/2 inches, and place the DA formation behind it at the CC's left or right flank, the entire CC formation would benefit from +1 PfP chart and +1 to FnP with rerolls as they marched up the middle of the table performing area denial for 1-2 turns. Trust me, no one will want to come near this, so you'll own the middle of the table till at least turn 3. In Maelstrom, every turn counts. This, in my opinion, is often a more important role for them to play than trying to outflank. Keep that in mind. Skill, in this game, is recognizing when that is, and is NOT the case.

Good luck!


EDIT: Testing website edit rules.

Thanks for the input!

What i use the DA is the backfield drop/deal with us/roasted marines serving now tactics. Since i dropped Reavers from the list, i really need something to pose a THREAT in the enemy´s backfield. Yeah, the LG is weak now, but i want that double tap from the flamer template ATM. The Blasters are what i love. Assault weapon with 18" range S8 AP2, gimme those please! What i lack (except the Scourges) from this list is AA, and that´s why i want them on my list (Haywire on the Archon is because i had the five points ...really wanted Scissorhand on the Haemie, but no points...). And the Medusae, c´mon man! 4 x template with S4 AP3! That´s the unit, that kills most against the marines in my games.

I face loads of Sternguard, so i get that "start from the table with your DA". BUT...i HAVE faced loads of Sternguard (like, a dozen times at least in drop pods), so Cronos IS the First Blood, if he´s on the table...so that´s why the CTC will start from the table (And Venoms, if there´s no "i got flamers up the jingjang" -type of list) and the rest will DS (unless it´s the Maelstrom with loads of cards on turn 1)...

I got a game with Chaos also for the coming Tuesday (the tournament organizer himself...), so i´ll have to really see, if i´m just too gung ho with this list, or should i re-do it...

Gimme more input people, i appreciate any ideas!

- LV

I understand what deep strike is used for. What I was saying was that by the time you are able to deep strike and DO anything, you are 3 rounds into the game, and have missed 2 rounds of scoring opportunities. I build lists to win, that's all. Efficiency is king in the arena of the winner.

I didn't say to drop all your dusas. What I suggested was to lose 1 model from your medusaes in order to upgrade your 3 18" blaster shots to 3 36" blaster shots + 30 splinter shots and 3 additional AV11 hullpoints. If you don't think that's worth it, then w/e man. Good luck!

I´ve had bad experiences running with the Ravager (another tasty First Blood target), but maybe´ll try it out sometime. That thing should be able to fire all lances with BS4 after moving 12", that one snap shot is so stupid IMHO...I´m also thinking changing the CTC to two sets of Talos (2 and 3), to cover more table. I´ll have still at least two gaming Tuesday´s, maybe three to finalize the list...so it´s practicepracticepracticepracticepractice...and minding the deployment...and choosing the right table half...

It's got 36" lances on it. It shouldn't need to move much. Find a nice place to park it to utilize a bit of a cover save if possible, and make minor movement adjustments as necessary to line up a shot.

Yeah, it'll die sometimes. It might die alot. But every time it does, something else doesn't.

Slight change, for the Tuesdays practice....

HQ

Archon (Agoniser,Blaster,SF,WWP,Haywire)
Court of Archon (4 x Medusae)
Venom (dual cannons)

TROOP

5 x Warriors (Blaster)
Venom (dual cannons)

5 x Warriors (Blaster)
Venom (dual cannons)

5 x Warriors (Blaster)
Venom (dual cannons)

FAST

5 x Scourges (4 x Haywire Blaster)

HEAVY

2 x Talos (Ichor)
2 x Talos
Ravager (3 x DL, Night Shields)

FORMATIONS

Dark Artisan
Haemonculus (Liquifier Gun, Scissorhand, WWP) WARLORD
Talos ( Ichor Injector/cannon)
Cronos (Spirit Probe)
--------------------------------------
1850p

Let´s see, if the 3 x S8 36" shots do scare some vehicles

- LV

Not a fan of the second list. You're paying all the points for all those talos still, but not getting the extra scoring potential of the corpsethief claw, and not giving them the one "must take" upgrade that makes them an all-around threat to anything(ichor injectors).

And you still have blasters on all the warrior squads. Every time you fire all those blasters at a vehicle, you're wasting 24+ splinter shots. That's the fire output of 2 venoms not being put to use. Let me tell you why the "conventional" wisdom was to put blasters in warrior squads: It is a holdover from a time when we simply fit as many darklight shots into a list as we could, wherever we could because other than haywire grenades, it was our only anti-tank.

That is not how our current codex is structured any more. We have far more access to cheaper, longer ranged haywire blasters than we did before, and they're more reliable. The only reasons to take blasters, in my opinion, are:

#1. On an HQ to take advantage of high BS at range.
#2. In a group of blasterborn or scourges for a big burst of specialized AT, possibly deep striking.(And only if all your heavy slots are full)

Honestly, the blaster upgrades are too expensive for a short range 18" shot when compared to the availability of the 36" dark lance. A group of blasterborn costs just as much as a ravager, but the ravager can stay further away from the danger with AV11 instead of AV10 transports.

If you really, really, really want an anti-tank weapon on the warriors, commit to that role and give them a dark lance. Then you can just park them in cover on an objective in your deployment zone and let them defend it while shooting 36 inches. They'll be safer than riding around in a cardboard box with a weapon more valuable than their life.

I agree with BetrayTheWorld here. Blasters on Kabalites are a big trap a lot of players fall into. We're not flexible tactical marines, and by giving a Kabalite an expensive upgrade that isn't even that strong to begin with, you start asking the unit to do too much.

Almost every single unit in our codex is a specialist, and Kabalites are no exception. Giving them the option to shoot infantry or a tank or to run, you actually risk fatiguing yourself with decisions in a tournament environment.

Not to mention those games where they just sit in their Venom on your table edge for 5 turns and never even have a chance to fire the Blaster, which costs almost as much 2 Kabalites itself. Leave it to Trueborn :3

Okay then (Fargo, season 2, awesome...)

- CTC is not a "must" take, cos in the tournament rules, the extra KP´s go to the secondaries (so, maximum 2p in the end of the game there to be had, i asked the tournament runner last time about that...)
- I´ve had Ichor on Talos now on at least 6 games and the insta-gibb, hasn´t come around ONCE
- I don´t own Trueborn/have the models, otherwise i see the potential of 4 x Blaster, and would MOS DEF use them
- I don´t want to use Raiders, i prefer Venoms in every way
- I´ve had very good experiences with the Warriors as they are, but i can see your points also. I personally just like to have that vehicle popping option there

Thanks for the input again, tomorrow, i´ll try the new list (at least once) and see how it goes!

- LV

Why post asking for list advice if you don't want it?

1. The insta-gibb isn't the point. The point of the ichor injectors is wounding all the T6-T10 stuff on 2+, including gargantuan MCs like wraithknights. The insta-gibb is just a bonus.

2. Trueborn ARE Kabalite warriors. They look identical, because they're just kabalite warriors who were born instead of created in a lab. There aren't seperate models. So if you have warriors, you have trueborn. Cut some little cloth capes and tie them around their necks if you want them to look different.

3. Who said anything about using trueborn? I recomended against it unless you had all heavy slots filled with other AT.

4. Who said anything about raiders?

5. I never said to get rid of the vehicle popping option. You'd still have it. It would just be on an AV 11 gunboat instead of in a group of warriors who also waste all their poison shots on the vehicle every time they shoot.


Either way, it's obvious you wanna do what you wanna do, which is GREAT! I'm A-OK with that. But you probably shouldn't ask for tactical advice, then be all like, "Meh, I just like these better, regardless of the statistics."

If you're fielding stuff you "just like", then you've already got a 100% perfect army, and no one here(or anywhere) can help you.

Good luck in your tournament and have a terrific day!

Woah!

No need to get loco here , as i said, i appreciated the input...but

- Never posted the list, just to ask help. More like how it fares in the games ahead
- Forgot about the wounds on 2+ on Ichor, THAT´s my bad , thanks for the reminder!
- I know they look identical, i don´t have four models with blasters, most of the tournaments are WYSIWYG here
- You need 10 Warriors to get a Dark Lance which was suggested --> Raider to hold that many models

- LV

Lost Vyper wrote:

- I know they look identical, i don´t have four models with blasters, most of the tournaments are WYSIWYG here

Well you've obviously got 3 with blasters. 3 Blasterborn in a unit would still be more efficient than having them in 3 different units. You keep saying things that are common sense, as if people said something about not doing it, like not playing WYSIWYG or something. That's pretty much the case everywhere. I think it may even be a rule in the book. No one is suggesting otherwise.

Lost Vyper wrote:

- You need 10 Warriors to get a Dark Lance which was suggested --> Raider to hold that many models

Read again. I said to put them in cover in your deployment zone on an objective, where you just sit and shoot your DL all game. I never suggested putting them in ANY vehicle. I even specifically alluded to the fact that they'd be safer than "riding around in one of our cardboard boxes".

Is English your first language? You spell and punctuate well, but don't seem to comprehend what I'm saying half the time. Am I just typing too many words at once, and it becomes word salad? What's the issue here? I'd legitimately like to clear up whatever is causing the communication breakdown.

I comprehend, but i disagree on most things due to what armies i´ve played against with the Dark Eldar, and the knowledge i´ve gathered. I might miss some of the things (like the Raider thing, cos i NEVER bring any units without a ride), but that´s just me reading these things late at night...

Anywayz...

Today, i had TWO cancellations happened to me ...BUT, i was able to get a couple of pick up games instead, and faced torrent flaming Chaos (Helldrake & Daemon Prince with Brand) and the second game was against the Ravenwing with load of bikes (and Darkshroud AND Sicaran...)...

We played regular Maelstrom and my first version of the list was on the block in both games. Against the Chaos, i was losing 8-3 until the beginning of the 4th round. After that round, he had 6 Cultists, 7 Noise Marines and a Heldrake left and i had tied the game and he called it. #winning

Second game, i was really against a hard army...Ravenwing, Plasma Talons and Gravs up the jingjang...ignored the Darkshroud through the whole game. Medusas grilled the Grav Bikes, his Intercepting Sicaran killed two Venoms, but got blown up by a BLASTER toting Warrior . Dark Artisan couldn´t kill 5 Scouts with 2 flamers and 6 poison shots and got ran over by two squads of bikes (about 15-20 with plasmas and CC). I won the game by points (about 12-8 if i remember correctly)...

What i need practice still (starting to get deployment in order now), is the WWP:ing on to right targets. I didn´t know, that Darkshroud also prevents OVERWATCH...(that´s how the Medusas and Archon went bye bye, but Archon´s Shadowfield rocked! If he hadn´t have S6 on charge, he would STILL be around )

I am happy with the first version of the list and with a 99% chance, i´ll use that in the tournament.
Sorry, if you got the feeling, that i´m not appreciating the input/advice, that was not my intend. I just have strong opinions myself and sometimes a hard head

Let us all make them suffer, so we can thrive and live forever, for Commorragh!

- Lost Vyper

Lost Vyper wrote:

I comprehend, but i disagree on most things due to what armies i´ve played against with the Dark Eldar, and the knowledge i´ve gathered. I might miss some of the things (like the Raider thing, cos i NEVER bring any units without a ride), but that´s just me reading these things late at night...

Well, you'd be correct for the most part - Dark Eldar infantry almost universally need vehicles to get their work done. In this case though, it just so happens that ten Kabalites on foot with a single Dark Lance costs less than the single Venom with 5 Kabalites and a Blaster, get to use their weapon from turn 1 and tend to stick around longer as well.

Lost Vyper wrote:

We played regular Maelstrom and my first version of the list was on the block in both games. Against the Chaos, i was losing 8-3 until the beginning of the 4th round. After that round, he had 6 Cultists, 7 Noise Marines and a Heldrake left and i had tied the game and he called it. #winning

Second game, i was really against a hard army...Ravenwing, Plasma Talons and Gravs up the jingjang...ignored the Darkshroud through the whole game. Medusas grilled the Grav Bikes, his Intercepting Sicaran killed two Venoms, but got blown up by a BLASTER toting Warrior . Dark Artisan couldn´t kill 5 Scouts with 2 flamers and 6 poison shots and got ran over by two squads of bikes (about 15-20 with plasmas and CC). I won the game by points (about 12-8 if i remember correctly)...

What i need practice still (starting to get deployment in order now), is the WWP:ing on to right targets. I didn´t know, that Darkshroud also prevents OVERWATCH...(that´s how the Medusas and Archon went bye bye, but Archon´s Shadowfield rocked! If he hadn´t have S6 on charge, he would STILL be around )

It sounds like you're coping well with the list you've devised, so yeah sticking with that is probably a good plan.

Unless your opponent is full of intercept fire, just point and click with the Medusae to remove heavy infantry. If their Venom dies, positioning the Archon in the front of most enemies is a solid plan but I assume you're already doing that. The rest is mainly about knowing what your opponents are capable of. As an aside, there's actually not a lot out there that denies overwatch; to my knowledge Dirge Casters and Darkshrouds are among the only ones.

The Dark Artisan is tough enough not to care even if there abundant intercept. Usually they're best for deep striking in to support the CTC if they're getting focused, or elsewhere in the board to provide a significant threat and contest objectives etc. If you ever start finding their deep strike contributions pretty sub par, consider walking them on and saving the 35 points.

The main staying power of your list is the CTC, so as long as your strategy with it is solid and you're avoiding/aware of its weaknesses, I think you'll be just fine

Lost Vyper wrote:

I am happy with the first version of the list and with a 99% chance, i´ll use that in the tournament.
Sorry, if you got the feeling, that i´m not appreciating the input/advice, that was not my intend. I just have strong opinions myself and sometimes a hard head

Whatever you say champ. Have fun and good luck in your tournament!

hydranixx wrote:

As an aside, there's actually not a lot out there that denies overwatch; to my knowledge Dirge Casters and Darkshrouds are among the only ones.

Banshee masks. And you can put them on an autarch that can join our units.
I've never done it though. Seems like a lot of points to pay for an autarch just to not get overwatched.

hydranixx wrote:

As an aside, there's actually not a lot out there that denies overwatch; to my knowledge Dirge Casters and Darkshrouds are among the only ones.

Banshee masks. And you can put them on an autarch that can join our units.
I've never done it though. Seems like a lot of points to pay for an autarch just to not get overwatched.[/quote]

Ah yes, of course.

That also valid for the regular Banshees themselves of course, so an attached Succubi in Banshee units get to beat up enemies without dying to overwatch. I do cry when I compare Archite Glaives and Banshee Executioners though...

9 x Incubi in a Raider with a Autarch with a Banshee Mask or Jain Zar...that would wreck face! Gotta try that combo, when i go back to Eldar or DE/Eldar. Planning to keep at least 6 months away from the Eldar and get more in to Dark Eldar...

Unfortunately those incubi will still attack on initiative 1 if there's so much as a rock in the way of a single model. Welcome to assault troops without assault grenades.

Yep. That´s the problem...

UPDATE on the test games

Two weeks of testing and i have 3 wins out of 4 games with this list.

I´ve got the deployment now in order (no more deploying open-topped vehicles in a drop pod flamer assault ), and choosing the table sides too. Those were the two problems i had. I believe this is officially going to be my list in the tournament 9.-10.4...

I absolutely love the amount of poison i can dish out. Never would have thought, that the Corpsethief Claw would be this awesome AA against flying MC´s! Twin-Linked for the victory! Medusae-bomb has been working nicely, especially against re-rollable jinking bikers (i hate Darkshroud!)...

Only thing, that is still a bit dud, are the Scourges. I´ve tried them deep striking (mishapping A LOT) and jumping out of the cover and scoring one glancing hit, then horribly molested by (insert any unit here)...but i really don´t have anything to replace them with. That Ravager could be one option, but it´s such an easy target, and i STILL trust 4 x Haywire, to do more damage to a vehicle with my dice throwing with lance weaponry...

I lost to a tournament GK+Dark Eldar+Imperial Knight (shooty version) and won a tough Necron list this Tuesday list and have won CSM (basic list) & Ravenwing...

What i really can´t stand (i mean, the units will go bye-bye), is flamers (especially torrent) and Grav-weapons...Plasma is still doable with CTC, but drop pod assault with Grav and Melta AND "Sternguard wounds on 2+ -shots" are HURTING! At least my CTC hang around in CC with the Knight for two rounds, before he rolled that 6 on a Stomp table...could have had him, but failed to roll two three´s in the last round in that combat...

Last try outs for the list is today (a triple threat match) and next Tuesday, try to get two games there also...

- LV

Keep going strong! Against drop pods what about building a castle?
Transports as walls and passengers inside the circle? So he can't Fry that much.

O-righty-then!

Today, we had a Triple Threat -match, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves and the Blood Angels. We had a special mission, Relic (3p)+ 4 x Objectives (2p each) + Kill points + Slay the Warlord as the only "tertiary"...

It was a TIGHT game! In the end (turn 7...), Space Wolves were wiped out and the Blood Angels had a Drop Pod (which survived a volley of Long Fangs with Missile Launchers & Las Cannons...) and about eight Tactical Marines left. Me, i got 4/5 Corpsethief holding the Relic, 2 x Warriors (Venoms all gone...), Dark Artisan and 3 x Scourges...the end result...Dark Eldar 19p, Blood Angels 20p!
If that Drop Pod was destroyed, i had won, or if the game ended on turn 6. Anywayz, very fun game!

Space Wolves player learned NOT to come after Dark Artisan with Fenrisian Wolves and a Lord on a wolf . Blood Angels player learned about the Medusae (whoooosh!)...i learned, that if you have 2+ save, you´ll fail the FIRST S6 shot coming your way...

My Warlord is lacking the proper CC-weapon. I had to butt out every turn from the Lords challenges with my Haemie...but on the other hand, Talos is there to protect and sever

Next Tuesday, the final tests, i love the CTC, especially in Relic...

- LV

A surprise match today against the Blood Angels!

A change in the list, dropped the Haywire from the Archon and got tl Heat Lance on the Talos in the Dark Artisan...

Dang it , i lost...i got the Tertiary and we tied on kill points (Archon with a Blaster and Talos with a tl Heatlance couldn´t drop ONE hp from a Razorback...) and he got Maelstrom and Eternal War, 14-6 win for the Blood Angels...

GOOD:

- Scourges ALMOST killed a vehicle
- CTC got me the Teritary and survived the Sternguard (ate them and another Tactical unit and a pod...)
- Blaster on the Warrior squad (who i deployed with out a Venom) waved menacingly to a Rhino, getting 2 hp´s of from it and immobilizing it


BAD

- I really gotta stop deploying too much stuff, when the Contact Lost -mission comes on as Maelstrom...lost one Venom on turn 1 and one in 1 hp with out a another gun and third jinked...just leave them in reserves and deal with the objectives later darn it!
- Medusae bomb didn´t come until turn 4
- Just.Can´t.Hit.With.Anything killing vehicles...
- Horrible FNP throws! Talos´s died from bolters...

Come on dudes, help me out here, Scourges with 4 x Haywire Blasters or a Ravager with 2 x Lances and the other weapon?

- LV

Last training games today, against CSM (player attending the same tournament and with her tournament list...) and against the Black Templar (CC oriented, pretty tough list)...

So first on the platter, CSM...she had a vicious list...THREE (3!) Heldrakes (2 torrent flamers), Nurgle Daemon Prince with torrent flamer, and a Typhoon Super-Heavy...we had a draw, 10-10, which was an AWESOME result, due to the fact, that i had like couple of warriors & the Dark Artisan left in the end...Archon DUSTED the DP in CC! Agonizer rules! That Thunderblitz is NASTY from a Super-Heavy...tried to avoid the torrent flaming, so i won the Tertiary (4p) and the Scouring (6p), she got KP´s and the Maelstrom for similar points. Blaster´s didn´t WORK at all today...with couple of them, Haywires, Smashing, the Typhoon was on 1 HP in the end of the game...

Second game and i got my a** handed to me raw...i lost on EVERYTHING...last time, i´ll Scout move on CTC, that´s for sure...everything went horribly wrong, dice didn´t work...aaaarrgh...
BUT...a silver lining here. This thought me a valuable lesson about the Scouting and lesson learned!

I´ll try to get the camera with me to the tournament and will film a "tournament experience", not whole batreps and let´s see, how i´ll do!

- Lost Vyper