Corsairs - How many Hate Bringers are too many Hate Bringers?

Greetings, fellow pirates

I have but three questions fer ya:

First question, can I play 2 Princes in 2 separate detachments, thus unlocking 2-8 coteries? Or are there specific detachment rules for Corsairs that prevent this?

Second question, can multiple Hate Bringers coteries select the same enemy unit as the their target ie can 3 hate bringer coteries all select the same Tactical Squad, and earn me 3 VP's if it dies?

Third question, has anyone played a list with multiple, cheap hate bringer coteries for the extra VPs? I'm thinking like 4-7 of them. Any sample lists would be awesome.

I figure I could spend around 150 - 250 pts per coterie, yielding me some combination of Cloud Dancers, Reaver squads in transports, and maybe one of the cloaked corsair 'ranger' units. A Hornet or two would not go amiss either.

I don't have the 2nd ed DoM book yet; I'm still looking for a place to 'acquire' it online . If anyone knows where I can 'obtain' a copy of it, please private message me. This is a Corsair sub forum, after all, is it not?

Each coterie per detachment has to use a different specialization, so only 1 hatebringer coterie per detachment.

But yes, you could take 2 detachments and select a hatebringer coterie in each, and I don't see anything stopping you from making both of their targets the same unit. Though that makes it an easy call for your opponent to keep that unit in reserves, unless it's their deathstar or something.

I'd like to be more help, but, I don't have a clue what the Corsairs are.

If I knew, I could see about finding you a copy of that book.

It's from the doom of mymeara, second edition.

Oh, I have several sources for that.

Is linking it in here alright or do I need to PM?

Looking this over...this...seems like way better Dark Eldar with access to craftworld tomfoolery...

Is...is this even legal to run?

Korazell wrote:

Looking this over...this...seems like way better Dark Eldar

You could end the sentence even there, and it's still valid.

Corsairs got all the love and rules that the Dark Eldar deserve - better rules for movement shenanigans, drugs, obsessions that sculpt the focus of your Prince etc.

Korazell wrote:

Is...is this even legal to run?

Forgeworld stuff is more legal now than ever before, and Corsairs are no exception.

But yeah, I need the 2nd edition DoM, sadly. I think it's dated 2015, but I'm not sure.

It is. It came out november of 2015.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Each coterie per detachment has to use a different specialization, so only 1 hatebringer coterie per detachment.

Ah, such a pity, thanks for letting me know though.

I hear the Princes themselves are actually decent too, so I would definitely consider picking up 2 detachments with a single Coterie each.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

But yes, you could take 2 detachments and select a hatebringer coterie in each, and I don't see anything stopping you from making both of their targets the same unit. Though that makes it an easy call for your opponent to keep that unit in reserves, unless it's their deathstar or something.

I think messing with their heads in such a way is perfectly plausible. The tax for such shenanigans is not exorbitant, even if your opponent does play to try deny you the kills.

The ability to pick up 2 free VP's is amazing... Select their snowflake Warlord, effectively making them (try) stay away from you the entire game or become worth 3pts if killed. Even if they try stay in reserve, they might show up on turn 2 or 3, and come on automatically turn 4 even if they don't.

We're fast enough to catch them once they turn up.

...This is literally the best thread I have found, suddenly.

I could have DE Corsairs and wait for a better codex.

Oh boy. This is christmas.

If anyone else wants a copy of the book, let me know.

Just want to say the Ghostwalkers are not too shabby. Especially for hate bringers. Nominate a vehicle and the combination of infiltrate (12-18 inches away) plus scout (12 inch move if you give them jump packs [DO!]) Means no vehicle can stay out of your melta range for first turn. Haywire grenades add a little more oomph and combined with the jet packs and reckless abandon it's almost impossible to assault them and they will happily bounce through the backfield from tank to tank haywiring them to death. Don't forget move through cover so auto pass all those dangerous terrain tests.

As a general question...

Don't jet pack troopers get +1 strength when using their packs to assault into melee?

Or was it hammer of wrath hits?

The Red King wrote:

Just want to say the Ghostwalkers are not too shabby.

Stoked to hear that. They're the guys with the cloaks, right? I definitely wanted to include at least one unit of them.

The Red King wrote:

plus scout (12 inch move if you give them jump packs [DO!])

I thought Jetpacks were simply 6" move or 6+d6" move at most in the movement phase, and then the extra assault 2d6 movement?

The Red King wrote:

combined with the jet packs and reckless abandon it's almost impossible to assault them

I think there's still some debate if you get to use Reckless Abandon during overwatch. I'm not sure there's a clear conclusion to the argument, but if you can in fact use it during overwatch ie during the enemy's turn, they just turned into Corsair Warp Spiders with Meltas. Mind you, you still die to templates really easily.

Korazell wrote:

Don't jet pack troopers get +1 strength when using their packs to assault into melee?

I believe that's Jump Packs, not Jet Packs, and only if you choose not to move with the Jump packs in the movement phase ie only move 6". You would then reroll charge distance and get Hammer of Wrath.

To my (admittedly minimal) knowledge, the only +1 for Hammer of Wrath goes to White Scars on their bikes due to their chapter tactics.

I just meant the scout move is 12 because the jet packs change their unit type.

It very clearly says after making a shooting attack at a target within 12 inches. It meets all the criteria with no plausible reason to say it doesn't take effect. In my mind.

Your movements are right.

The Red King wrote:

I just meant the scout move is 12 because the jet packs change their unit type.

Whoa, really? I wasn't aware the unit type influences scout move distance! Learn something every day, thanks for that.

The Red King wrote:

It very clearly says after making a shooting attack at a target within 12 inches. It meets all the criteria with no plausible reason to say it doesn't take effect. In my mind.

I agree with you here. There's just sporadic debate from time to time that hasn't really died down since release. (from what I've read)

I think it makes more sense for Reckless Abandon to influence overwatch than your own shooting phase. I can just picture a bunch of airborne pirates jet packing backwards, wildly spraying their guns, as Tyranids charge after them.

Yeah. I had to give the scout rule a read. And I agree it does make more sense.

Korazell wrote:

Looking this over...this...seems like way better Dark Eldar with access to craftworld tomfoolery...

I started to mention this to you in your other thread about getting back in to  DE/40k, but I feel like all I do in every thread just tell people to play corsairs... So I skipped it for once.  The good news is though - for the most part, you can use core dark eldar units as corsairs with no modification at all.

But ya corsairs are significantly better at being dark kin than the dark kin.  They bring more splinter weapons and speed than our "splinter weapons and speed" army.  They (can) have better night fighting rules, better combat drugs, better web way portals, and access to most of the dark eldar armory anyway (blasters being cheaper).  Then of course there are the dirty tricks, like being virtually immune to ever being charged while still bathing chargers in overwatch fire.

On top of this they have tons of flexibility to field multiple, effective army types - as opposed to venom spam.

Korazell wrote:

Is...is this even legal to run?

Ya they're legal, but they're forgeworld so depending on your opponent/tournament conditions they may not be permitted.

To be honest I've barely touched my dark eldar since this release except to convert most to corsairs.  It fits my army better though since it's exodite-refuge themed.  Occasionally one of my buddies picks up what's left of my collection and plays them against me, but between the corsair rules and the new daemon decurion (which is my other army)... the dark kin look really, really sadface.

stilgar27 wrote:

To be honest I've barely touched my dark eldar since this release except to convert most to corsairs.

I can see myself going down this path as well. It's a pity that all the infantry units are 5 strong and each Baron has to be attached to a unit. Venoms are a lot less appealing now.

I might just use some of my existing Venoms as Vypers instead and save myself 15 pts. The platform at the back can just be used for carrying loot, ammunition or narcotics.

I've been pretty impressed with what I've read in the book. Getting on this hype train coincided with the recent topics on the Splintermind Podcast...

I've started making my unmade Reaver Jetbikes into Cloud Dancers. I'm thinking of using either 2 units of 3 with Dark Lances or 1 unit of 5, then use the 6th Bike as a Baron with Shadowfield to tank wounds and boost Ld. I think they'd be perfect for either Hate Bringers or Tank Hunters

hydranixx wrote:

The Red King wrote:

It very clearly says after making a shooting attack at a target within 12 inches. It meets all the criteria with no plausible reason to say it doesn't take effect. In my mind.

I agree with you here. There's just sporadic debate from time to time that hasn't really died down since release. (from what I've read)

I actually saw on another website that forgeworld answered the site owner's email regarding this issue, and said that they DO, in fact, get to jump after overwatch if the opponent is within 8 inches. So basically, it forces your opponents to try for longer charges to avoid your jumpback move, unless your opponent is an idiot. But there are plenty out there.

hydranixx wrote:

Getting on this hype train coincided with the recent topics on the Splintermind Podcast...

I've started making my unmade Reaver Jetbikes into Cloud Dancers. I'm thinking of using either 2 units of 3 with Dark Lances or 1 unit of 5, then use the 6th Bike as a Baron with Shadowfield to tank wounds and boost Ld. I think they'd be perfect for either Hate Bringers or Tank Hunters

I find it ironic that you mention the splintermind podcast right before talking about kitting up your cloud dancers exactly how they say NOT to kit out your cloud dancers. lol

They talked about dark lances on them sort of being a trap due to how ultimately fragile they are compared to things that would normally carry them, like ravagers or raiders. Further, they didn't say this, but with corsairs having access to an 80 point hornet with 4 S8 AP2 shots at 36" and front/side AV11 with 3 hp, why pay 40 points for a T4 jetbike with 1 S8 shot that can die to a bolter?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EDIT: Looking at the corsairs again, I just realized that wasp assault walkers are Elite choices. This makes corsairs pretty mechtacular (mine, just now ), being able to take a single detachment with a prince, a void dreamer, and a unit of cloud dancers to unlock 3 units of assault walkers, 2 units of hornets, and a lynx.

You should keep in mind that all separate coteries treat each other as desperate allies, and that 2 detachments led by difference princes treat each other as desperate allies as well, so having 2 detachments might be somewhat unwieldy with the number of "one eye open" rolls you may have to make.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

I find it ironic that you mention the splintermind podcast right before talking about kitting up your cloud dancers exactly how they say NOT to kit out your cloud dancers. lol

They talked about dark lances on them sort of being a trap due to how ultimately fragile they are compared to things that would normally carry them, like ravagers or raiders.

I know it seemed contradictory haha, but there's method to my madness. I was following the logic presented in the "corsair tactics" thread by Shredder.

The idea was that 3 Jetbikes with Dark Lances cost less than a Dark Lance Ravager, and more often than not they end up shooting more lances because they can move more than 12", and can usually end up more survivable because they jump behind cover/out of range after shooting, possibly twice.

It's clear that yes, they do fold to bolters. However, with their supreme mobility (12" + RA + JsJ) if they're dying to bolters* it's my fault and I should probably lose the game anyway. Also, in my experience anything that carries a bolter usually also carries krak grenades, so a Ravager isn't going to stick around for long either.

* The exception is drop pods - these are sources of bolters (and other nasties) that I can't actually predict/escape from. Usually units in drop pods also have access to meltaguns or gravguns or both, all of which kills Ravagers without issue.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Further, they didn't say this, but with corsairs having access to an 80 point hornet with 4 S8 AP2 shots at 36" and front/side AV11 with 3 hp, why pay 40 points for a T4 jetbike with 1 S8 shot that can die to a bolter?

I don't have access to the book atm, but I was sure Hornet's have 2hp?

And yes, of course Hornets are the go to for S8 AP2 shots. They'll find their way into any list I make, methinks. It's worth noting they do lack the Lance rule, objective secured and a 36" turbo boost. I would still take Hornets everytime of course; I think they'd work nicely in concert with any and all ranged Jetbikes as well as Ravagers if they turn up.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

You should keep in mind that all separate coteries treat each other as desperate allies, and that 2 detachments led by difference princes treat each other as desperate allies as well, so having 2 detachments might be somewhat unwieldy with the number of "one eye open" rolls you may have to make.

Again, I don't have access to the book atm, so I might be completely wrong... But I think that separate coteries in the same detachment treat each other as allies of convenience, not desperate allies. It's a rule they made for purely what seems like Barons/Void Dreamers not joining separate coteries.

But yes, separate Princes and their detachments may get skittish near one another. This is quite a liability, so I am a little nervous about it. I think the two best ways around it is to either focus each detachment towards a separate flank, or one of the detachments using exclusively infiltrating and/or deep striking units so there's few times in which I'd need to worry about the OEO rule.

Maybe it's catering too much of my force, (and no small amount of tax barons...) just to acquire 2 hate bringer coteries. I'll have to figure out a balance in the days to come!

@BetrayTheWorld , if I were to run 5 regular with 2 Fusion guns, in Jetpacks or a Venom, would you recommend I kit the other 3 models in the unit with splinter, shuriken or lasblasters?

I guess I'm just stoked that I'm looking at an army that is similar in concept to Dark Eldar, but actually gets more than one feasible option -  rather than "Here's your 105pt 5 Kabalites + Dual Venom Squad, enjoy picking the exact same unit 5 more times in your CAD!", We're instead asking ourselves:

Do these guys want transports or jetpacks?
Which weapon(s) do they want to take?
How many Coteries do I want to pay tax for? Which ones do I need most?

And of course, how many Hornets can my wallet afford...? xD

hydranixx wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Further, they didn't say this, but with corsairs having access to an 80 point hornet with 4 S8 AP2 shots at 36" and front/side AV11 with 3 hp, why pay 40 points for a T4 jetbike with 1 S8 shot that can die to a bolter?

I don't have access to the book atm, but I was sure Hornet's have 2hp?

Yup, my mistake. They have 2 hp each. But bear in mind that they can get dark lances instead of pulse lasers for the same price(80). It's just unlikely to matter because there isn't a lot of AV13+ in most metas, and if you DO run into it, they have outflank and acute sences for a rear armour shot with the pulse lasers. Not that they really need it. They'll probably still kill AV13 from the front fairly easily. They're just so cheap.

And the pulse lasers are best against everything NOT AV13+ because it's like having 4 dark lances on an 80 point model.

hydranixx wrote:

Again, I don't have access to the book atm, so I might be completely wrong... But I think that separate coteries in the same detachment treat each other as allies of convenience, not desperate allies. It's a rule they made for purely what seems like Barons/Void Dreamers not joining separate coteries.

But yes, separate Princes and their detachments may get skittish near one another. This is quite a liability, so I am a little nervous about it.

Yup, you're right. Internal coteries are allies of convenience...not so bad. Separate detachments are desperate allies. Not nearly as bad as I thought. You could probably pull it off by planning table halves like you mentioned, but a cunning opponent that recognizes this weakness could exploit it by focusing one flank to try to spread you out. Not really a huge disadvantage since you'd mostly be able to avoid the rolls altogether, then when you DO have to roll, only failing on 1/6 times. But those times you fail could be devastating. Like at adepticon when my 195 point Eldrad rolled a 6 to perils, I rerolled, rolled a 6 again, then rolled a 1 on the perils chart and got eaten by the warp turn 1. lol

hydranixx wrote:

@BetrayTheWorld , if I were to run 5 regular with 2 Fusion guns, in Jetpacks or a Venom, would you recommend I kit the other 3 models in the unit with splinter, shuriken or lasblasters?

I'd probably need to consider the army list as a whole, but my kneejerk reaction would be to take none of the above and take the ccw + brace of pistols. The brace gives them both splinter fire and shuriken options as well as extra attacks in CC. And if I recall correctly, those particular pistols aren't really giving up much range. I think the shuriken pistol and shuriken catapult may actually have the same ranges, but I don't have my eldar codex handy at the moment.(I don't use pistols much on eldar)

hydranixx wrote:

I guess I'm just stoked that I'm looking at an army that is similar in concept to Dark Eldar, but actually gets more than one feasible option

Oh no doubt. Corsairs are definitely very cool, and not short on flavor. Corsairs are what a "Return of Duke Sliscus" supplement should have looked like.

That said, they're definitely cool, and the mymeara book certainly didn't leave us short on options for how to set up the units we're given access to, but they're still a side faction that will almost certainly get no updates/expansions until mymeara is redone again. So when you really look at it, and what they have available, they have significantly less variety than DE do. Even though the DE codex is horrible in my opinion, it's still a complete codex while corsairs will only ever be like a really well-done supplement army.

But enough of my naysaying. It's not going to stop me from playing some corsair pirates with my DE and Eldar armies. I'm going to convert some pistols from the naked wych arms so I can show off my pirate scum's tattoos.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

hydranixx wrote:

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Further, they didn't say this, but with corsairs having access to an 80 point hornet with 4 S8 AP2 shots at 36" and front/side AV11 with 3 hp, why pay 40 points for a T4 jetbike with 1 S8 shot that can die to a bolter?

I don't have access to the book atm, but I was sure Hornet's have 2hp?

Yup, my mistake. They have 2 hp each. But bear in mind that they can get dark lances instead of pulse lasers for the same price(80). It's just unlikely to matter because there isn't a lot of AV13+ in most metas, and if you DO run into it, they have outflank and acute sences for a rear armour shot with the pulse lasers. Not that they really need it. They'll probably still kill AV13 from the front fairly easily. They're just so cheap.

And the pulse lasers are best against everything NOT AV13+ because it's like having 4 dark lances on an 80 point model.

Yeah man, I agree. Hornets are just so damn good. I would of course, always play them with Pulse Lasers; the Lance rule isn't really that great, especially in an army that can not only take meltabombs and meltaguns, but can also take haywire grenades on almost every entry...

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

But those times you fail could be devastating. Like at adepticon when my 195 point Eldrad rolled a 6 to perils, I rerolled, rolled a 6 again, then rolled a 1 on the perils chart and got eaten by the warp turn 1. lol

The chances of that ever happening... and at a big event such as that! Haha dude, I feel for you. That must have really hurt!

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

hydranixx wrote:

@BetrayTheWorld , if I were to run 5 regular with 2 Fusion guns, in Jetpacks or a Venom, would you recommend I kit the other 3 models in the unit with splinter, shuriken or lasblasters?

I'd probably need to consider the army list as a whole, but my kneejerk reaction would be to take none of the above and take the ccw + brace of pistols. The brace gives them both splinter fire and shuriken options as well as extra attacks in CC. And if I recall correctly, those particular pistols aren't really giving up much range. I think the shuriken pistol and shuriken catapult may actually have the same ranges, but I don't have my eldar codex handy at the moment.(I don't use pistols much on eldar)

Yes I believe they're both 12" range - Shuriken Pistols and Catapults that is - and that's an option I hadn't even thought about... If it's 0pts to grab the brace of pistols and ccw, it's really a no brainer. So much flexibility in just 5 models... I seriously may never play Kabalite Warriors again.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

So when you really look at it, and what they have available, they have significantly less variety than DE do. Even though the DE codex is horrible in my opinion, it's still a complete codex while corsairs will only ever be like a really well-done supplement army.

Yes, you're right. They're a little lacking on their own, so treating them as a supplement to other Eldar forces is probably the best approach. I can see myself running a detachment of Corsairs as an add-on to almost any list of DE or CWE. By taking only 1 or 2 Coteries, the Baron/Void Dreamer tax is not nearly so exorbitant.

There's so many combos with Princes and Void Dreamers in DE and CWE units that it's almost a crime not to ally up.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

But enough of my naysaying. It's not going to stop me from playing some corsair pirates with my DE and Eldar armies. I'm going to convert some pistols from the naked wych arms so I can show off my pirate scum's tattoos.

Aye! and a bottle of Rum! harhar.

(seriously though, if you do actually convert said pistols like this and add tattoos to your Corsairs, please take a picture for me!)

hydranixx wrote:

The chances of that ever happening... and at a big event such as that! Haha dude, I feel for you. That must have really hurt!

I actually lost another farseer to the warp in a similar fashion in that tournament. But thems the breaks when you run 3 farseers plus eldrad and 7 warlocks. A lot of psychic rolls will inevitably result in some bad stuff happening eventually, even for eldar.

All tournament long, it seemed like my rune rerolls kept continuing to result in a perils. Most of them were still ok. Just lost some warp charge and/or wounds that I usually blocked with my ghosthelms, but spiking those 1's at inopportune times can hurt!

Pretty sure I still won all the games those happened in. I only lost 1 game by 2 battle points, but in that game I wasn't failing psychic rolls. It was just my first game in that tournament setup and I wasn't familiar enough with the rules.

They made obsec SUPER powerful in adepticon this year by putting objectives on the table that were basically 24" objective markers. If you had a model within 12" of a point on the board, you were considered scoring/contesting it.

I wasn't prepared for that in the first round, so didn't deploy as well as I could have.

Long story. I played all of adepticon with ZERO sleep from the night before. I got a flat tire 45 minutes away from the hotel. So after staying up all night trying to change a tire in the pouring rain on the freeway while waiting 6 hours for a tow truck, i ended up having to get the mechanism that held my spare tire sawed in half with a grinder to get my spare tire off and onto my vehicle at an auto shop at 6am. Just managed to make it to adepticon at 9am for sign-in.

Drank a 5 hour energy and got 24th place in the best general category. Top 16 went to day 2.

hydranixx wrote:

Yes I believe they're both 12" range - Shuriken Pistols and Catapults that is - and that's an option I hadn't even thought about... If it's 0pts to grab the brace of pistols and ccw, it's really a no brainer. So much flexibility in just 5 models... I seriously may never play Kabalite Warriors again.

Yeah, the pistols everywhere thing is really cool. I'm going scrounging for pistol bits now. Oh, and yeah, the brace of pistols upgrades for the regular guys are free, fyi. But I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what a dissonance pistol should look like.

hydranixx wrote:

(seriously though, if you do actually convert said pistols like this and add tattoos to your Corsairs, please take a picture for me!)

Will do. I'm notoriously slow getting my painting done though, fyi. It normally comes down to a week long crunch session the week before a GT. lol

Brace of pistols are generally the way to go.  They are effectively shuriken catapults by themselves, but with an extra melee attack.  Compared to splinter rifles; they lack the single 12-24" attack, but hold the advantages of the assault ability and an extra melee attack when comparing them at 12".  12" is optimal for reaver bands on foot anyway.

Lasblasters are maybe the only other choice for reavers.  The advantage is obviously range and weight of fire, which comes in handy when deep striking or on open top transports (or both).  Most people malign strength 3 weapons as "flashlights", but I'm usually pretty happy with what they can do.  I've even taken to running my corsair venoms (when I do run them) with the stock twin linked lasblasters in front.  It's 10 points cheaper and hits about as often as the splinter cannon when jinking due to the re-rolls (since corsair venoms don't have flickerfields - you'll have to do that often).  Besides, it's not like we can't pack in enough splinter fire elsewhere, a cannon here costs twice as much as it would on a bike.

As far as bikes go - I'd say it's scatter lasers or splinter cannons, leaning more towards splinter cannons.  In general, my anti tank is covered by 4 hornets, melta gun reavers, or occasionally falcons.  Pulse lasers may not have the lance rule, but they out-range lances by 12", which brings them more in line with other armies' anti tank range anyway.  Not to mention the whole "heavy 2" thing.

Kind of silly, but I sometimes run a flexible/distraction "deathstar" of 10 splinter cannon bikes with a biker baron, shimmerfield, with optional tanglefoot, combat drugs, and haywire grenades (or just vault breachers).  They kill pretty much anything, but they do get pricey...ish, have the wrong target order (ideally anti tank comes at range, not in melee) and are pretty much impossible to hide.

ooh, are pulse lasers 48"?

If so, I've been playing them wrong at 36".

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

ooh, are pulse lasers 48"?

If so, I've been playing them wrong at 36".

Ya pulse lasers are range 48" Str 8 AP 2 Heavy 2, which in my book makes them more than twice as effective... until you run into AV 13+ anyway.

A hornet with 2 of these also has scout, star engines, and can flat out and still make snap shots.  So they can reach  just about anything (up to 8' away) on the first turn.  

I also had 2 beat up old falcons I re purposed for my corsairs, which together let me scout a couple more pulse lasers up the table.  As expensive as these can get, I stuck eldar missile launchers on each so their turrets all have that same 48" range.  Didn't upgrade the 3rd gun though since it's not on the turret and you'll have to snapshot 1 of the 3 weapons anyway if you move at combat speed.

Falcons DO get to keep their starhawk missiles though unlike most corsair units.  So these can become durable little obj sec, anti air bunkers.

And ya I realize only dark eldar players would consider a vehicle that can be glanced to death with krak grenades or scatter lasers to be durable.