How do you plan on countering the new marine psychic powers?

What about letting him deep Strike and you got nothing on the table and in your first round you put the scalpel squadron in play?

Painjunky wrote:

WhysoSully wrote:

So far we have seen solutions such as:

More reaver shenanigans combo'd with tank shocks.  Eliminate the enemy deathstar via unorthodox trickery (I like it! but hard to do)

Heavy coven style talos deathstars. (make the only target a super tough one)

MSU (meh I didnt agree with this, but including it anyways) In theory when facing a deathstar, they cant possible target/shoot/assault that many units a turn.  Could work.

We also had a great discussion about our anti psyker stuff like crucibal (sp?) and what it might take to work against the new space marine psychic powers or how it might be improved with different rules.

Anyways that's where we're at now guys. (let me know if I missed something)

What about WWPing in D-sythes, lots and lots of D-sythes. Fight cheese with cheese as i already mentioned.

D-sythes + MSU will be my approach and this is coming from a guy that avoids including eldar allies but hey, if GW are going to release bags of hot, wet garbage i may as well dive in and swim!

That is exactly what I am doing in Competitive play. I will be deep striking a 5 man WraithGuard Squad with Succubus in a Tantalus.

mrmagoo wrote:

Painjunky wrote:

WhysoSully wrote:

So far we have seen solutions such as:

More reaver shenanigans combo'd with tank shocks.  Eliminate the enemy deathstar via unorthodox trickery (I like it! but hard to do)

Heavy coven style talos deathstars. (make the only target a super tough one)

MSU (meh I didnt agree with this, but including it anyways) In theory when facing a deathstar, they cant possible target/shoot/assault that many units a turn.  Could work.

We also had a great discussion about our anti psyker stuff like crucibal (sp?) and what it might take to work against the new space marine psychic powers or how it might be improved with different rules.

Anyways that's where we're at now guys. (let me know if I missed something)

What about WWPing in D-sythes, lots and lots of D-sythes. Fight cheese with cheese as i already mentioned.

D-sythes + MSU will be my approach and this is coming from a guy that avoids including eldar allies but hey, if GW are going to release bags of hot, wet garbage i may as well dive in and swim!

That is exactly what I am doing in Competitive play.   I will be deep striking a 5 man WraithGuard Squad with Succubus in a Tantalus.  

I dont have much experience with wraithguard, how will the dscyths get through 3++/3++/ 3+ fnp (rerollable 3+ invuln and 3+ fnp)?  Most of these deathstars will be ap2 to deal with each other so thats a lot of points to sacrifice into rerollable saves no? (grav+assault would insure their destruction after we wwp them in)  I might be missing something though, wouldnt 5 venoms cause more saves on average?

Remember, they are going to see the list before rolling on psychic powers so if they see wraiths with dscyths they will for sure go for invuln rerollable.

Do D scyths prevent FNP's? otherwise we are back at the start with them still having all those saves and us just using a really expensive way to make them take them.  

Wouldnt D scyths be better for like termies or something?  I dont think rerollable invulns is a good target can someone confirm how they work?

would be 350-550 points to wwp them down depending on squad size and upgrades on the succubus, they would still get all their saves and knowing they know you have d scyths you should expect them to be spread out at max coherency.

Ok,   So first off they are AP1,  So they are going to ignore any 2+ saves.  

Second=  The are assumed to be STR 10 for the of Determinng if the weapon has the instant death special rule.   So NO FNP unless they are T6+

Third =  Each wound Causes D3 Wounds.

Lastly = They are flamers that deep strike where they want.  So unless your opponenat was really good at spreading way out.  You can count on 5 hits, meaning 25 Wounds.

Nothing I can do about the 3++ inv save.

Plus Most of those DEATHSTARS aren't going to have good Shooting weapons to break the Armour 12 on the tantalus.  Meaning you will get 5 D3 when they charge the tantalus.


Also its 570 Points all together.

Unfortunately with bikeys we are looking at t6 deathstars (also remember they can get +2 s/t/i/a etc).  so they will still get both rerollable 3+ and the 3+ fnp (2+ on the commander).  Darn.

D3 wounds sounds good, although, you are looking at maybe 16-24 wounds on avrg (guesstimate) for 550+ points.

5 venoms could do 60 shots, 30 hit, 20 wound.  However, they would get 2+'s if they have them.  But at least you get the MSU and objective secured to play the objective game.

D scyths seem like an all in, but might work.

Can someone try it out?  I can when I get home tonight (about 8 hours from now uhg).  Tried to find a probability calculator for this, but no luck.

Edit: With the tantalus, if they take control of it and boost you, you wont be able to fire template because of snapfiring next turn right?  Gotta remember all the new vehicle psychic powers too >.< this is going to be a headache.  

Need to mathhammer how many wounds we need to get through the double 3++ and 3+ FNP.  I want to check how survivable the wraithguard would be too.  I assume they would just get massacred but maybe they could survive.  All that ap2 though... makes me sad.


Edit 2: Now I am thinking corpse theif with aspect host of warp spiders to kill all the grav might work. Still playing with battlescribe though.

Marines are t 4 and putting them on a bike is only t5. Unless the are a special character or get a physchic power off. They are not going to get all of these powers off in one turn even if they can het the powers.

This way all they are getting is the inv save and there is nothing i can do about that.

Splinter cannon fire will be mostly negated with 2+ rerollable save.

@mrmagoo 8 chances to get 2 powers is not farfetched.  I think many of you are under estimating how easy it is to get the psychic powers you want (not surprising as we dont have psykers).  Multiple people seem to think this.   Grab your dice and roll on the tables.  Most deathstars will get 8 chances to get the powers they want.  See how many times you fail to get what you want.  I was doing this last night, after 5 tries I was still getting the 2 powers I wanted, sometimes with spare rolls!

8 chances on a d6 table.  Odds are you will get what you want more than once!  (aka when you see d scyths in the list you are facing, roll for the single power that gives +2 toughness, then they manifest on a 2+ so easy peasy.

marines t4, on bikes t5, buffed t7 they will get their FNP.  Remember: They get to see your list before rolling on psychic powers.  Once they see 30-50% of your list in one unit they will pick appropriate powers.  This is of course assuming highly competitive play.  I am sure any one of our ideas could work in friendly games or against novice opponents.

minimum 30% of your list to do 1 round of wounds just doesnt seem like the answer, even if they did happen to lose their FNP.  

Is there any positive?  They still would get their FNP and two 3++ so this hasnt really changed anything.  It is a good way to put one round of wounds on them but I dont see it lasting longer than that and at the points cost... Oh and I just realized you only factored 5 in... that will definitely not work.  Thats going to average less than 10 wounds that they get 3++/3++/3+fnp.  550 points to deliver 10 wounds with all those saves and then just feed the unit.

Also... a key problem here.  This unit can first turn charge.  So you wont even be able to use template weapons to shoot them if your wraiths come down while they are in combat (which they have hit and run so they can basically choose when to leave)

Ok Sully. You don't think D-sythes would work. I agree they're not perfect.

What's your plan?

Painjunky wrote:

Ok Sully. You don't think D-sythes would work. I agree they're not perfect.

What's your plan?

Tell me how you are going to use d-scyths when a t7 deathstar can charge first turn, move 36 inches, and switch in and out of combat during the psychic phase.  Using templates to counter a CC unit is not a good idea when they can be in combat turn one. If you want someone to lie to you and tell you its good, you are asking the wrong person.  If they had to spend a turn or two to get into CC it would be a completely different story.

I have posted multiple ideas, worked through multiple other ideas. Demanding ideas from me is going to get you no where quick because I dont fly like that.

Its not a competition?  You do know there is absolutely no prize for whoever figures this out.  We are trying to work together.  Its not my idea vs yours...

Edit: I have been working on a dark artisan/corpse theif list with a seer council for invis but its just too much points. Its really hard because we have to commit with our list super focused while they can run a more avrg list and specialize via psi powers.

In all honestly the most sound advice I can think of is just pray they dont get the psychic powers and if they do just walk away.  It sucks which is why I am hoping, even if it take 100 pages, we will figure something out.  If we dont talk about what doesnt work we will never figure out what does.   For all you know, someone was working on a way to kill them with template but now that we discussed how CC will be able to protect them they wont waste the time.

I actually just had another idea while thinking about this.  What if we could tempt them into taking cover in a Void generator (placed far far out of the way, aka in a corner) with a juicy unit, then hopefully put them a turn away from your other units giving you a chance to put some shotting into them.  Preferably do this without the void generator, but this is going to require some trickery.  Do you guys think we could do some damage with shooting like this?  I didnt jump right for the d scyths because of the whole combat thing and it being relatively predictable when it will come down (autarch could help this though). This would give us a little breathing room to deal with the 5 obsec rhinos they can take with a list like this.

Also warp spiders seem like they are going to be more common, one of the few units that will be able to move as fast as them while still being resilient.

mrmagoo wrote:

Ok,   So first off they are AP1,  So they are going to ignore any 2+ saves.

AP2 actually but the effect is the same on armour saves  

Quote :

Second=  The are assumed to be STR 10 for the of Determinng if the weapon has the instant death special rule.

S4 for D-Scythes but that doesn't really matter because...

Quote :

So NO FNP unless they are T6+

D weapons specifically disallow FNP rolls anyway!

Quote :

Third =  Each wound Causes D3 Wounds.

But only on a 3+. Rolls of 1-2 do nothing and they can't get the dreaded 6 result on the Destroyer table and therefore the target will still get their rerollable 3++. Sadly that pretty much nerfs the D-Scythes before we even consider the chances of getting to shoot them at a target that will be in combat by turn one.

Ah good to know about the FNP, I forgot about that.  All D weapons disallow FNP based on just being D weapons.

Alot of this wouldnt be AS bad if only they werent allowed to see our list when rolling for psi.  Thats my issue with all of this, the fact that they can basically cherry pick abilities tailored specifically for the list they are up against.  Please nobody suggest they wont get the abilities they want, minimum 8 tries with 6 possible outcomes they will get it, the question is if they will get 2 or 3 of the powers they want, for they will certainly get at least one. (obviously terrible rolls are a possibility but trust me you dont want to base your whole plan on requiring less than 1/6 odds to go in your favor.

Not giving up, but damn this is a tough cookie to crack...

Maybe playing team games (like 2v2 or 3v3) could help reduce the advantage of a deathstar style army.  Bigger table too, but still not a competitive answer.

Censor? No. I'm merely asking you to stay on topic. Unless my reading comprehension fails me this thread is titled "how do you plan to counter..." not " let's complain about..."

Let me put it in context. We are all in a desert and someone asks "how could we be less hot" and you instead go off about how hot it is and that other people aren't as hot. As if we are somehow unaware of the heat. Do you see how that might seem off topic and unhelpful?

Speaking of stages, let's hurry up and get to acceptance. It's been how long?



On topic, a culexus weakness of mobility is more pronounced for us since we can't even stick him into a pod. However area denial is its own kind of power. Still probably the best suggestion. That's a lot of points to just get shut off like that.

Also Dscythe deepstrike is a decent idea as high mobility won't stop a deepstrike and the deathstar will be far too killy to hide in combat.

WhysoSully wrote:

@mrmagoo 8 chances to get 2 powers is not farfetched.  I think many of you are under estimating how easy it is to get the psychic powers you want (not surprising as we dont have psykers).  Multiple people seem to think this.   Grab your dice and roll on the tables.  Most deathstars will get 8 chances to get the powers they want.  See how many times you fail to get what you want.  I was doing this last night, after 5 tries I was still getting the 2 powers I wanted, sometimes with spare rolls!

8 chances on a d6 table.  Odds are you will get what you want more than once!  (aka when you see d scyths in the list you are facing, roll for the single power that gives +2 toughness, then they manifest on a 2+ so easy peasy.

You know the chances of each level 2 getting the power are exactly the same right? Especially when you roll the powers correctly - ie one at a time... You have a 16% chance on the first roll and a 20% chance on the second should you not get it on the first go...

That chance does not be come cumulative as you don't remove powers from the pool as they are generated.

Essentially its a 1 in 3 per psyker of getting the specific power from 1 tree of powers you want. Taking 4 psykers does not make it guaranteed. They may get 8 chances at the power but its still a 1 in 4 shot per psyker. Tigurius makes it far more reliable with 3 rolls on the chart with a reroll but the odds are still not 100%

Isn't the new teleport power just a swap? So we have to kill all the little guys out there that the enemy uses to teleport around. After that it's just a slowly walking points sink hole.

The first round pod is there anyway and I guess the second one too, but if we go MSU we could destroy that. Don't forget that this conclave must be a lot of points.

Wouldn't be mirror of minds a good idea? Just make the leadership small enough and he can't win anymore. And he can have as much saves as he want, repeat to infinity and he's dead. You shouldn't even do rolls for that anymore.

Massaen wrote:

WhysoSully wrote:

@mrmagoo 8 chances to get 2 powers is not farfetched.  I think many of you are under estimating how easy it is to get the psychic powers you want (not surprising as we dont have psykers).  Multiple people seem to think this.   Grab your dice and roll on the tables.  Most deathstars will get 8 chances to get the powers they want.  See how many times you fail to get what you want.  I was doing this last night, after 5 tries I was still getting the 2 powers I wanted, sometimes with spare rolls!

8 chances on a d6 table.  Odds are you will get what you want more than once!  (aka when you see d scyths in the list you are facing, roll for the single power that gives +2 toughness, then they manifest on a 2+ so easy peasy.

You know the chances of each level 2 getting the power are exactly the same right? Especially when you roll the powers correctly - ie one at a time... You have a 16% chance on the first roll and a 20% chance on the second should you not get it on the first go...

That chance does not be come cumulative as you don't remove powers from the pool as they are generated.

Essentially its a 1 in 3 per psyker of getting the specific power from 1 tree of powers you want. Taking 4 psykers does not make it guaranteed. They may get 8 chances at the power but its still a 1 in 4 shot per psyker. Tigurius makes it far more reliable with 3 rolls on the chart with a reroll but the odds are still not 100%

I never said they are 100% just they are more likely to get it than to not, which is why we keep talking like they are going to have it.  No use planning for them to fail if it only happens 20-30% of the time.  Odds favor them getting 1-2 spells they want.

https://www.random.org/dice/?num=1

For instance, I picked the number "3".  I rolled, if it was 3, I marked "O" and counted it a success, if it failed I rolled once more, rerolling if it was the same number I got previously.  If the second roll failed I marked an "X".  After doing this 4 times if I didnt roll any 3's I counted it as a complete failure.

Looks like this:

O
XXO
XXXX
XO
XXO
XXXO
XXXX
XXXX
O
O
XXO


8 times getting it 3 times not.  and I gave up.   Yesterday I got it 5 in a row and gave up.

Try it on your own and you will see how easy it is. Its disgusting.  This is why we need to be prepared.

Like we have to mind games this or something.  Maybe we can use something minimal to force them to take certain powers and then really be using a different strategy.  Not a good plan, but something to get thinking.  Something for them not to use all 8 going for these broken abilities.

I have an idea, lads.

And yes, it is something inspired by spite more than anything else, but here we go.

The Vindicare Assassin.

He's BS8, with a 72" sniper that always has Precision Shots, Ignore Cover, Ap2, gives -2 to LoS's, and most importantly, access to a bullet type that ignores invulnerable saves, and access to a bullet type that does d3 wounds instead of one.

Therefore, if his conclave has the 3++ rerollable, I will choose to ignore it, and his armour save, and his cover save, entirely, and wound the Librarian that has the most threatening powers fairly reliably.

If his conclave does NOT have access to a 3++ (remember we get to pick which model is hit, so even if one has the SS to tank for the others, we can always pick another Librarian) we nail him with a d3 wound bullet, that still ignores his armour and cover save.

I would happily play a trio of Vindicares to see how it fares against the conclave.

WhysoSully wrote:

Painjunky wrote:

Ok Sully. You don't think D-sythes would work. I agree they're not perfect.

What's your plan?

Tell me how you are going to use d-scyths when a t7 deathstar can charge first turn, move 36 inches, and switch in and out of combat during the psychic phase.  Using templates to counter a CC unit is not a good idea when they can be in combat turn one. If you want someone to lie to you and tell you its good, you are asking the wrong person.  If they had to spend a turn or two to get into CC it would be a completely different story.

I have posted multiple ideas, worked through multiple other ideas. Demanding ideas from me is going to get you no where quick because I dont fly like that.

Its not a competition?  You do know there is absolutely no prize for whoever figures this out.  We are trying to work together.  Its not my idea vs yours...

Edit: I have been working on a dark artisan/corpse theif list with a seer council for invis but its just too much points. Its really hard because we have to commit with our list super focused while they can run a more avrg list and specialize via psi powers.

In all honestly the most sound advice I can think of is just pray they dont get the psychic powers and if they do just walk away.  It sucks which is why I am hoping, even if it take 100 pages, we will figure something out.  If we dont talk about what doesnt work we will never figure out what does.   For all you know, someone was working on a way to kill them with template but now that we discussed how CC will be able to protect them they wont waste the time.

I actually just had another idea while thinking about this.  What if we could tempt them into taking cover in a Void generator (placed far far out of the way, aka in a corner) with a juicy unit, then hopefully put them a turn away from your other units giving you a chance to put some shotting into them.  Preferably do this without the void generator, but this is going to require some trickery.  Do you guys think we could do some damage with shooting like this?  I didnt jump right for the d scyths because of the whole combat thing and it being relatively predictable when it will come down (autarch could help this though).  This would give us a little breathing room to deal with the 5 obsec rhinos they can take with a list like this.

Also warp spiders seem like they are going to be more common, one of the few units that will be able to move as fast as them while still being resilient.

I think you read some hostility into my post that actually wasn't there. I don't need you to tell me anything and i wouldn't be so rude as to demand a response. I too have talked about multiple possibilities and am interested in what people are planning.

The d-sythes would WWP in so they would shoot the deathstar altho rerollable invulns is a huge problem. I agree.

@painjunky understood. no worries.

@hydranixx now that sounds interesting. could stick them in a void shield too. Void shield would protect you in case of ignore cover shinanigans right?

WhysoSully wrote:

I never said they are 100% just they are more likely to get it than to not, which is why we keep talking like they are going to have it.  No use planning for them to fail if it only happens 20-30% of the time.  Odds favor them getting 1-2 spells they want.

https://www.random.org/dice/?num=1

For instance, I picked the number "3".  I rolled, if it was 3, I marked "O" and counted it a success, if it failed I rolled once more, rerolling if it was the same number I got previously.  If the second roll failed I marked an "X".  After doing this 4 times if I didnt roll any 3's I counted it as a complete failure.

Looks like this:

O
XXO
XXXX
XO
XXO
XXXO
XXXX
XXXX
O
O
XXO


8 times getting it 3 times not.  and I gave up.   Yesterday I got it 5 in a row and gave up.

Try it on your own and you will see how easy it is. Its disgusting.  This is why we need to be prepared.

Like we have to mind games this or something.  Maybe we can use something minimal to force them to take certain powers and then really be using a different strategy.  Not a good plan, but something to get thinking.  Something for them not to use all 8 going for these broken abilities.

That's not realistic though - its literally a 1 in 3 shot (approx.) of getting a specific power per psyker and its not cumulative. Its hardly something they are more likely to have then not as you claim. With 4 psykers or 10, the odds of any one getting the power are the same as the next - approximately 1 in 3.

Its completely possible for them all to roll fishing for the one power and none of them get it - infact I would say its even the more likely scenario given the 6 possible results and each only gets 2 rolls.

WhysoSully wrote:

@hydranixx now that sounds interesting.  could stick them in a void shield too.  Void shield would protect you in case of ignore cover shinanigans right?

Well all assassins come standard with their own 4++ save and 3 wounds. So ignore cover shenanigans don't worry me - and neither does Grav or Plasma spam as Grav's hurt him on a 6+ (I don't think he has a regular armour save at all) and Plasma can't ID him or ignore his saves.

It's just their T4 that leaves them vulnerable to getting potentially one hit by a krak missile etc.

A Void Shield would increase their life expectancy quite a lot, I suppose, especially against said krak missile(s).

Massaen wrote:

WhysoSully wrote:

I never said they are 100% just they are more likely to get it than to not, which is why we keep talking like they are going to have it.  No use planning for them to fail if it only happens 20-30% of the time.  Odds favor them getting 1-2 spells they want.

https://www.random.org/dice/?num=1

For instance, I picked the number "3".  I rolled, if it was 3, I marked "O" and counted it a success, if it failed I rolled once more, rerolling if it was the same number I got previously.  If the second roll failed I marked an "X".  After doing this 4 times if I didnt roll any 3's I counted it as a complete failure.

Looks like this:

O
XXO
XXXX
XO
XXO
XXXO
XXXX
XXXX
O
O
XXO


8 times getting it 3 times not.  and I gave up.   Yesterday I got it 5 in a row and gave up.

Try it on your own and you will see how easy it is. Its disgusting.  This is why we need to be prepared.

Like we have to mind games this or something.  Maybe we can use something minimal to force them to take certain powers and then really be using a different strategy.  Not a good plan, but something to get thinking.  Something for them not to use all 8 going for these broken abilities.

That's not realistic though - its literally a 1 in 3 shot (approx.) of getting a specific power per psyker and its not cumulative. Its hardly something they are more likely to have then not as you claim. With 4 psykers or 10, the odds of any one getting the power are the same as the next - approximately 1 in 3.

Its completely possible for them all to roll fishing for the one power and none of them get it - infact I would say its even the more likely scenario given the 6 possible results and each only gets 2 rolls.

First psyker picks the type you want, then rolls for the power you want.  Either makes it on the first, or second,  and if not, then the next one picks the SAME and then rolls for it twice, then the next, and the next.  They do affect each other because you as a player only need one of them to get the ability.  It doesnt matter which one gets it.

Lets forget about rerolls and just talk about trying to roll a 6,  we will roll 8 times.
% chance of rolling at least one 6:
out of 1 roll:  16%
out of 2 rolls: 30%
out of 3 rolls: 42%
out of 4 rolls: 51%
out of 5 rolls: 59%
out of 6 rolls: 66%
out of 7 rolls: 72%
out of 8 rolls: 76%

Remember this is the % chance you will roll at least one six.  imagine 6 being the ability you wanted.  

With rerolls its even higher.  They will get at least one power they need almost every game. Its probably between 76-80% chance to get the power they want but that gets a bit above my head with all the rerolls.

If they had only taken one lvl 2 psyker than it would be like you said only a 30% chance, but since they get to attempt that 30% chance 3 times (plus the lvl 3 psyker) the probablilty goes up.

@hydranixx  ooo you could combo the vindicare with a callidus for the ap 2 template wounding on 4's and then 6's in cc ignore invulns.  would also take some threat off of smaller units trying to take out the vindicare. Even better, 2 vindicares guarded by a callidus.

The great thing about this is that either the deathstar goes after the vindicare, or it hides in cc and you take out grav or pop the ridiculous amount of obsec rhinos they get.

Maybe stomps could be a thing vs the SM psychic deathstar of OP cheesy doom, as Skulnbonz mentioned earlier.

Which do you think could do the job better? Imp knight, chaos knight or wraith knight or other? Also what loadout?

For us the wraithknight is probably the best choice because you are most likely going to want to use it to protect/distract from nearby units.  Having to worry about one eye open doesn't seem worth the trouble (although I really want a reason to get that new renegade box).

You're going to need the shield for a chance to survive and with their speed you might not get too many shots in before CC so the glaive is a good option.  That would be a judgement call but I think sword and board is the way to go, however, that is from a pure research standpoint.  I haven't gotten my hands on one to test yet.

The Skathach forgeworld one has some intesting rules and its weapon options are pretty nice, 48" large blast str 7 ap 4 monofiliment with shred(with hellstorm version) or 36" str 8 ap 1 heavy d3+2  melta.  Also has the option of a shield, but the interesting bit is that you can choose to redeploy in the movement phase within 12" and at least 1" from enemies.  Now you scatter 1 d6, if you land on enemies you join ongoing reserves and take one wound.

Phantom titan could probably handle them

Agreed. WK sword and board seems to be the best option at first glance.

Now im just theory hammering here but could a WK and culexus work together (whilst still not getting close enough to trigger one eye tests) to control an area that this deathstar would seriously not want to get close to?