BetrayTheWorld Retiring From TDC

Due to irreconcilable differences of opinion between myself and certain members of the Mod Staff, I will be henceforth suspending my prior forum activity in which I attempted to help the community with advice and commentary via comments & articles on the forums.

The point of contention is as follows. I posit that:

"A truthful and undeniable fact, stated as such, without using any derogatory or otherwise impermissible language, CANNOT be considered disrespectful in an open forum while still fostering an environment hospitable to the open exchange of ideas."

The Mods in question have demonstrated that they disagree with that statement, and I cannot continue to participate in, and therefore by proxy, be a part of a system where factual truth is punishable with administrative action.

Some may not lament my exit, others may miss the discourse and exchange. To either party, I bid you well. I may yet see you on the tables if you make it to any national tournaments in the US. Good luck, and remember to have fun! I'll miss you guys!

dont betray us ! :p

in all seriousness you are really active in here and often times with long posts backed up with facts so i almost always enjoy reading your thoughts on matters be it positive or not-so-positive

Really? Sad to hear.
Was nice (and very entertaining) to have a hard counter to some people on here who are more or less selling their untested personal opinions as tactical fact.
Oh well...

I'm not sure this is news...

This is really unfortunate. Your insight will be missed.

I always found your advice to be some of, if not the best and most reasonable advice.
This sucks

One less reason to check in for me.

I have to admit that I haven't felt that TDC has been very "hospitable" in recent months either.  As the dark eldar slide further into obsolescence with each update, I feel like some players have become hostile, or adopted a "feels over reals" attitude which discourages rational examination.

That said, I have not really observed this in the mod staff.

To be honest - Most of the folks I looked forward to hearing from (like mushkilla, shredder, etc) have slowly disappeared, and anymore I play... almost anything other than the dark kin.

Anyway - I will keep an eye out for your avatar elsewhere.

Bugger! I enjoyed reading your comments.

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

"A truthful and undeniable fact, stated as such, without using any derogatory or otherwise impermissible language, CANNOT be considered disrespectful in an open forum while still fostering an environment hospitable to the open exchange of ideas."

Calling an idiot an idiot may not be well received by said idiot. There are lots of ways to technically speak the truth and still cause drama at the same time.

I can imagine you checking back in a month or two and seeing a fashion for Blasters on Kabalites, Wracks and Beastpacks and deciding you need to return as a public service.

I have not had too many run ins with the mods yet, but that is because I normally write a response along the lines of "Do you even PLAY this game? How the hell do you feel mandrakes are competitive!" but then I erase it, because history has shown that you can lead a DE player to the truth, but they will not believe it.

You, on the other hand, I feel has also been "out there" and know what struggles we face as DE players. It will lessen the forum to have one less voice speaking the truth, rather than vomiting up the nonsensical tripe I hear constantly about how we are doing fine as an army.

When a post begins with "no bashing or criticism please, lets talk about how great DE is!" The end has begun. I never had to tolerate reading any of your posts that reflected that sentiment. I understand you come on here to throw a spotlight on how best to play your favorite army in a competitive scene... i do the same. And in doing such, we agree most of the time.

But I think i know why the forum is swinging to a "friendly game" and "modelers club" type arena. It is because all the tournament players moved on. They HAD to. Dark Eldar, on their own, in most tournaments are not viable to win. Sure, play and have fun, but some of us want to WIN. So as attrition stole tournament player after tournament player, all that remains are a few die hards, and people who play for fun.
People who play for fun don't want to hear how their ideas will not fare well in competition. They want to hear how innovative and fluffy their lists are.

So best of luck to you, And I am sure I will see you around the tournament scenes. I will be at ATC under team Skull N Bones, come look me up if you are there. i will be the player that gave up on DE as primary, but took them as an Ally.

I guess we will need somebody else to debunk the BS Posts in the tactics section.
And with BS i don't mean ballistic skill.

It is unfortunate to hear that you have had this issue and that your interaction with the mods/admins has resulted in this outcome. In my opinion we are losing an important member who has helped out many of us with his suggestions and insights and that the community becomes poorer for the lose. I don't have the level of experience and knowledge that you and several other members have so I try really hard to not get into discussions I feel that are out of my league to comment on. Do to my experience with mods in other forums in the past I also tend to limit my posting, often times beginning to type things and then delete them without posting. As a result I haven't had much interaction with the moderator/administrator staff with their mod hats on in this forum but I can't say that I'm impressed with some of the things I've seen with a couple of them.

I wish you luck Betray and, mod/admins willing, should you get your own website going as you have mentioned as wanting to do in the past I'll add it to my signature here.

CurstAlchemist wrote:

I wish you luck Betray and, mod/admins willing, should you get your own website going as you have mentioned as wanting to do in the past I'll add it to my signature here.

That would be totally fine with with the staff - he isn't banned, nor is he being asked to leave, and we encourage links to DE/40k related sites in sigs.

There is an aikido saying that when your enemy is gone, who will you fight? It appears the great Incubi got tainted by the disposed snake and decided to fight it with a deadly outcome. I can say that I have found him a good rhetoric and wish him good luck.

What a bummer.

I also to some degree subscribe to the "truth trumps manners" way of conducting an argument. It works fairly well in deterring people from using unfounded arguments or non factual statements because they know I will challenge them to explain the logic behind it or show me the evidence they base the statements on. If they are right and I am wrong, I will happily admit to it because nothing is better than learning something new.
Unfortunately text is not well suited as a medium for getting away with that way of arguing since it lacks all the micro information you get from a live conversation. Like facial expression, tone of voice etc. Instead the reader often projects their own inflection etc on to the text, oftentimes misinterpreting the intents behind the statements they read.
To make matters worse, anonymous internet debates are so notorious for bringing out the trolls in people that it is easy to automatically assume that everyone always has the worst intentions. Even though this is as friendly a forum as you will ever get.

I'm not a big believer in absolutes and as such I think we are too quick to use statements like "truthful and undeniable fact", without considering that other people might not think our facts are all that undeniable. Because of this I think it is unrealistic to expect there to exist a universal level of factuality that will automatically stop people from taking offense to any given statement. I wish there were.

I have been reading most of your posts for the last couple of years, and I have never found any of them to go outside ( my perception ) of the norms of acceptable online conduct. Could some posts be interpreted as a bit... confrontational at times? Sure. I always wrote that down to enthusiasm and eagerness to find out how we can best play our army. I can't imagine anyone actually being happy to see you go.
If somehow, after the tempers have cooled a little bit, you come to some kind of understanding with the mods, I, and I can probably safely say we, would be delighted to have you and your insights back.

It's a shame, 'cause one reason I joined this forum was to get some real advice with my lists and play from you in particular later. (I just posted my intro yesterday, but have lurked for some months, just bought a pile of ravagers, venoms etc.) Despite being a dirty casual I prefer information over sugar-coating it if I'm bad.

This is a shame, I had just responded to some very friendly & helpful advise from this guy, who had responded to a noob starting out. Guess I'll never hear back now...

That Betray feels that the Mods are forcing his stance I feel is just, well, a shame.

Alot of the time I personally felt that rather than post a differing opinion, people liked to discredit a play style, or a forum responce. This just ended posts rather than developed discussion.

Betray would say drop Blasters & buy Ravagers, others would never say, yes, that is a good way to do it, or you could also do this as well.

"Just I like Blasters" or "I don't like Ravagers"

Never posting a counter example list with what they would then actualy do.

Sad Times TDC

This is just silly. The mods didn't force him to do anything. It looks like they told him to hop off his high horse and he had to use this soap box to dismount due to the staggering heights his ego achieved.

BetrayTheWorld has, indeed, been a longstanding and valued member of the TDC community, and he will be welcomed back if and when he chooses to end his self-imposed suspension. As most people here have noted, his rational and often alternative or counter lines of thinking are valued by many.

His differences with the Mods, who have been unanimous in their thoughts, are certainly not irreconcilable, they simply may require some time to reflect and a slight adjustment in accommodation.

We, as the Mod team, are not infallible. We do sometimes get things wrong, we also mis-interpret things on occasion, and thus a false element is wrongly inserted into a conversation or an action. We will always admit our mistakes and correct them, when they are clearly shown to be mistakes.

Differences of opinion are not so clearcut, unfortunately. We try to promote as open a forum as possible, whilst keeping within the bounds of reason and decency. No one, least of all us, wants to come here and listen to the same old, same old. In RL, for example, I am a professional librarian, to whom freedom of thought and freedom of expression are essential in today's society, and I work hard every day to give people the opportunity to gain new knowledge and generate a variety of new ideas for themselves.

This forum is now just over 5 years old. We never want to see denizens leave us, for any reason. In that time, we have had cause to ban only 13 people. Anyone who spends any decent amount of time on the Interwebz today knows that there are no limits to the levels of anger, blind obedience and sheer stupidity that are expressed online in great volumes, each and every day. That we have only had to ban 13 people in 5 years, I think, says something about the tolerance of the Mod team, and more importantly the fantastic nature of our membership as a whole.

There will always be differences of opinion here, debate and constructive criticism are what we all come for. Hopefully, those differences that are taken too much to heart or are taken out of context, will be mended with time.

Gobsmakked wrote:

His differences with the Mods, who have been unanimous in their thoughts, are certainly not irreconcilable, they simply may require some time to reflect and a slight adjustment in accommodation.

I've withheld further comment, or further explanation of the situation because it appeared the mods were attempting to keep this mostly contained to PMs, which I was trying to respect while still letting the rest of the forum know that I was leaving, and the core reason why. But since a mod has deigned this thread an appropriate place to talk about details, here you go:

Reconciliation requires communication, something you and all other mods have been unwilling to participate in, based on what appears to be policy. It seems like no mod is allowed to answer a simple email from a member with a grievance without having a secret police pow-wow first. I am not allowed to participate in a discussion with a mod or the mods collectively. You talk in secret, get half-baked information from a mod who specifically and explicitly does not like me and doesn't know what's going on himself, then you send me mandates via private message. I respond back to said message, and again, no conversation. I have to wait 2 weeks for you to discuss it amongst yourselves in secret to only, once again, send me a mandate/decision via private message.

You're not trying to communicate with me. You never have been. You're trying to execute judicial decision against me in a secret trial where I'm not allowed to speak.

Edit: Gobs hardly discussed details. He issued a statement so I hope that we can prevent this from escalating.

It has always been our goal on TDC to create and keep a friendly atmosphere for all members. This is why we advocate reporting people causing actual trouble and keeping out of it to prevent tensions from rising. The mod team are all volunteers who are here in their spare time. Some are here more than others.

The rules apply to all members equally whether Denizen, Patron of the Dark, Dark Architect or Dark Muse. We have communicated with you, but communication starts to fail when unreasonable demands start to be made.

We are always trying to work harder to make TDC a better place. If we continue to talk in black and white to try and get a message across then I feel like the discussion should abate for now, as little can be achieved.

We will welcome you back with open arms if you ever change your mind.

Cavash wrote:

Edit: Gobs hardly discussed details. He issued a statement so I hope that we can prevent this from escalating.

He issued a reply to my assertion, and I issued a reply to his. Details or otherwise, prior to this I was keeping it in PMs because that seemed to be how you guys wanted it. No big deal, it's here now.

Cavash wrote:

The rules apply to all members equally whether Denizen, Patron of the Dark, Dark Architect or Dark Muse. We have communicated with you, but communication starts to fail when unreasonable demands start to be made.

Now you're simply misrepresenting the truth. All Patrons, Architects, and Muses get the opportunity to defend themselves because they have access to the hidden forums, so they can clarify misunderstandings as they come up instead of having to wait 2 weeks for the first response, 2 weeks for the next response, etc. Denizens, on the other hand, are subject to secret behind the scenes trial that apparently takes weeks of discussion where they don't get to speak.

In particular, I asked YOU about what was going on with the request I sent, and you specifically said you couldn't discuss it until staff was done talking about it in private. I didn't message any other mods, or push further about it because I try to be respectful. I let you guys do your thing, then got a completely ABSURD response that appeared as if you all had played the telephone game for 2 weeks. The message I got was almost completely unrelated to the ACTUAL events that occurred. As if a bunch of people who didn't really keep up to date on the content of the website were judging someone based on heresay and speculation with a distinct lack of any real information. Basically, people who visit the website once or twice a week, and only look at the art projects section probably shouldn't be mods on this website, and if they are, they probably shouldn't be taking part in secret trials of prominent members regarding complex and long-standing interactions with other members over a period of time, based on the content of a single post that they haven't even bothered to read themselves.

Someone changed the title of that thread AFTER I posted in it, making it appear confrontational when it originally was not. You realize that, right? Or did the mod I sent the PM to not bother posting that fact after I PMed it to him? I have no idea, due to the secret police way in which you handle disciplinary action. I have no idea what mods have what information. I'm sending a message to 1 mod, then getting a message back from a different one with a "verdict" and explanation that doesn't seem to have the information I gave the first one. Not one mod has asked me a SINGLE question, in a MONTH of deliberation. That's communication? This is ridiculous.

Get your act together, or bring someone passionate about justice, equality, and free exchange of information in to get it together FOR you. I'll volunteer if you don't have anyone else who has that kind of time or inclination, but debating this with me here will only dig a hole for the mod team to bury themselves. The only way for you to "win" an open debate against me is to ban me, because the more our truth and private interaction comes out, the more absurd people will see that this entire situation was to begin with, particularly bearing in mind the source of the original issue.

Betray... I like your posts and discussions with you even if we did not agree quite a few times. It would surprise you how much I understand your point of view being generally considered a haughty and arrogant person just for expressing my opinion in full, truthfully and including things people do not want to hear, being extremely dedicated to truth, rigid in judgements and love disputes with similarly minded people... But I am afraid that I have to disagree with you...

What I will say now, I say as a denizen who have had few run-ins with mods and other denizens about the way I expressed myself... even if your (or mine) point of view is 100% accurate, even if you (or I) have been wronged, it is not yours, mine or anybody else's (beyond staff and moderators) place to judge how this forum is ran. This is not a country. This is a forum about a faction in a game ran by a group of people who have limited time to do this and I for one respect that fact and will rather swallow my ego than make the job for them more difficult just because I am right or feel that I have a right to express myself as I wish.

We, denizens, do not get a vote. We have right to register, post if we adhere to rules and judgements of the moderators and leave if we dont like it here. That is all. Number or validity of our posts does not give us rights. Yes, moderators judgement can be summary, yes they might have secret debates, because they do have the right. Your choice is either adhering to the rules and judgements or leave. This is not a democracy, never has been, never will. No forum or website or blog ever will, dont kid yourself. And even if it were, if you were found on the minority side as I believe you would in this case, you would have to adhere to the majority opinion again and democratic principles would also require you to keep your peace. Freedom of expression? You have that right, but you have to understand that there are and will be consequences. Not just here. Everywhere. There is freedom of expression, but there is nothing that binds others to tolerate your expressions. You wont go throwing this kind of words and accusations around a tournament that has ruled against your belief or opinion. Ruled by a secret consensus of handful of people. The only thing you can do is either go to the tournament and adhere to the rules or dont. You participating in the tournament for 10 consecutive years does not give you any rights either. This is nothing appaling, nothing unfair. That is perfectly normal and reasonable.

Everytime I get the feeling that I should say something about how a mod responds to someone or perhaps this thread, I always end up telling myself "this is not my forum". And honestly... this is the first time I hear anybody here talking about being punished by administrative action for stating the truth.

In the end... this is still about a game. I know it is passionate thing for many, but it is actually quite comical seeing people applying lawyering principles to gaming rules or stating things like "rights" and "administrative action" and "punishment". Thats drama. Yes I lawyer myself sometimes. But I try my best to step back from it and laugh and solve it by a dice roll and beer. If you cant, you cant...

aurynn wrote:

We, denizens, do not get a vote.

You're so very, very wrong. When I returned from a short hiatus to this forum 6 months or so ago, there were basically very few people logging on at all. I came by daily, several times a day, and there was generally either 1 or ZERO people in the chatbox. The latest chatbox messages were literally WEEKS old. I endeavored to answer every single unanswered tactical thread, to start my own threads, and to help every noob who stopped by the site to get help with a list. The tactics thread and army list thread was filled, top to bottom with my avatar for the first 3 pages. And, with a LOT of hard work, over the last 6 months, this site sprang back to life. Am I wholly responsible for that? Perhaps not, I can't say with certainty, but I undeniably had something to do with it. I may not own the site, but I OWN ME. I own all that I bring to this site.

There may not be a "formal" method in which we get a vote, but there is one method that always works to get your message across, "Protest to bring attention to the problem, and if it doesn't get fixed, vote with your feet. Walk away, and don't support something that promotes ideals you don't belive in."

It works on businesses that you don't own, TV stations that aren't yours, and governments you're not in control of. There is no reason it shouldn't work on a forum you also don't own. If the people running said forum don't care about the continuing success of said forum, it will ultimately die as people of like minds walk away. If they DO care about it's success, then they will take notice of what it is their members want.

And if all they want is a yesbox where they don't have to deal with dissenting opinions, and they want an army of drones and yesmen who go along to get along, that ban button is just a click away. I DON'T think that the mods are malicious in their intent for this site. I think they want it to succeed, which explains why I haven't been banned yet. But I DO believe that they under-value the effect of prominent posters here, and generally value carebear hugs style posts over truth and logic.

Now, I'm not saying MY desires are reflective of everyone else, but I don't think punishing truth is something that should be done, and as I told the mods, so shall I tell you: If I have to choose a hill to be crucified upon, it will be the hill of TRUTH!