Incubi vs Grots

heya

im prepping for a casual tourney and it boils down to this:

i have a huskbladed archon that needs a bodyguard
and the choices are
5 incubi + klaivex / raider
or
2 grots + aberration scissorhand / raider

now, the meta seems to be marine heavy and some favor termies. the rest of the list is 3 venom kabbies/blaster/hwg
2x6 reavers cc/blasters
1 lance ravager
corpsethief hwb/ichors

i definitely have some available ap2, just wondering if i could use some more

As a general rule - mathematically, Incubi are about twice as killy, while Grots about three times are survivable. In a purely bodyguard-getting-shot-at train of thought, go Grots. If you want an elite assassination unit, go Incubi.

Don't forget grots have ID, poison, and S5 so they're rerolling wounds against T4.

TeenageAngst wrote:

Don't forget grots have ID, poison, and S5 so they're rerolling wounds against T4.

You've mentioned ID a number of times on a couple of threads. Just wanted to clarify that it's only ID on a To Wound roll of 6, in case anyone was getting confused.

MHaruspex wrote:

As a general rule - mathematically, Incubi are about twice as killy, while Grots about three times are survivable. In a purely bodyguard-getting-shot-at train of thought, go Grots. If you want an elite assassination unit, go Incubi.

are incubi 'that' killy? they have max 3 attacks while one grot can be max 8 with rampage

The AP makes a huge difference.

They are right. A grot will hit and wound more, but you will get a save. The Incubi can force invuls, which are generally worse. Grots can kill a Term squad but that would be on weight of attacks. On the other hand a Incubibsqad can roflstomp them because those klaves cut through their best save. If you bump up their power from pain then they too can wound on 3's the turn you charge if they have gotten Furious Charge.

Why an archon and not a succubus?

Might just be me, but I find the Archon works well with the incubi, while the succubus works well with the grots.

The incubi make up for what the Archon lacks (ap2) while his shadow might prevent the unit from being nuked for a turn or two.
Many others have already pointed out how well the succubus works with grots, the Archon on the other hand doesn't fix or add anything for them.

I can see that, having the AP that the Succubus provides gives you a nice hitting power with the many rerolling attacks of the grots.

Though If I was looking to make a survivable HQ squad I would say Grots and Archon. If you want a very nice assassination star, then Incubi and a Succubus.

I've tried the Archon with grots and it didn't work out well the 3 games I played (blood angels, ad mech, and CSM), the biggest problem was that the Archon's shadowfield didn't really provide much additional protection (do you want to chance a plasma shot save on your archon and have a 1/6 chance of losing him or just let the grots handle it) and then if you do run into a 2+ armor save (which an opponent familiar with grots will throw at them) you'll be in an uphill battle.

Though your mileage may vary

dumpeal wrote:

Why an archon and not a succubus?

well its primarily because i like the idea of an archon more than the succy.
as others have pointed out, ap3 archon goes well with ap2 incubi
and
ap2 succy goes well with ap- grots, they make up for each others weaknesses. succy has practically no save so grots provide the meat she needs

Seshiru wrote:

I've tried the Archon with grots and it didn't work out well the 3 games I played (blood angels, ad mech, and CSM), the biggest problem was that the Archon's shadowfield didn't really provide much additional protection (do you want to chance a plasma shot save on your archon and have a 1/6 chance of losing him or just let the grots handle it) and then if you do run into a 2+ armor save (which an opponent familiar with grots will throw at them) you'll be in an uphill battle.

Though your mileage may vary

i played the grotesquerie formation vs some marines. he had a 2+ 5+fnp unit with a baller hq. i threw 5 venoms at that unit for 3-4 turns and both 3man grot squads with the haemy. it basically took me all game to make it go away. my dl-s were working overtime trying to deal with his armor. just one of those games where he made ALL teh savez

Seshiru wrote:

I've tried the Archon with grots and it didn't work out well the 3 games I played (blood angels, ad mech, and CSM), the biggest problem was that the Archon's shadowfield didn't really provide much additional protection (do you want to chance a plasma shot save on your archon and have a 1/6 chance of losing him or just let the grots handle it) and then if you do run into a 2+ armor save (which an opponent familiar with grots will throw at them) you'll be in an uphill battle.

Though your mileage may vary

Don't rely on the shadow field!  
It's a hideous little b-tch that seeks only to break your heart and drink your delicious tears.  

Drop it like its hot, get another grot for the pts and let them (or the heamy if your playing grotesquerie, which you should be!) take the heat.

Make sure grots get a cover save if the raider gets wrecked/exploded.
T5, 4/5+ cover and FNP can be quite resilient.
An expendable heamy on point can share wounds around.
Avoid 2+ AS units. Kill them with splinter, darklight, dissies, caltrops, etc

Grots are so versatile. With a succubus they can kill pretty much everything, even vehicles, and are durable vs most attacks too.

Incubi are far more specialised. Where they have to soak up a lot of attacks before swinging they can struggle, even vs MEQs. You'd expect even a tac squad to take a few out if they're swinging first now that they have the extra attack from their bonus close combat weapon.

I'd ditch the archon and take the grots with succubus.

Grots are far more meta atm than Incubi. Neither carry grenades so you're going to be swinging at I1 for half your assaults anyway. You're gonna want that weight of dice too, it just tends to perform better in my experience than low AP and low attack numbers.

Ya, my Incubi have seen 1 battle on the tabletop, where they actually managed to charge something with 2+ save that wasnt in cover. Unfortunately it was a Necron Command Barge. So it was T5/6, with a 4++ and RP. So dispite sitting in combat with him for 3 assault phases, didnt even scratch his paint.

After that, its Grots all the way (at least in this Archons raiding parties). Screw those guys and their T3, S4 attacks

I am curious how they would fair in a Kabalite Raiding Force. Getting the plus one to the Power from Pain, use the Animus Vitae to buff up once more. If all goes well you could shoot for a turn two charge with Furious Charge on a squad of them to see how that works. S5 AP2, turn two charge. Sounds fun.

Sounds fun until you're running into competent overwatch. T3 and no grenades cripples the usefulness of Incubi.

If you are charging a unit with either high volume of shots or high overwatch BS in such a way that you'll be attacking at I1 and your concerned about units dieing to overwatch you're doing something wrong. a 3+ Armour save and a 4+ cover save should ensure that most of your incubi will be making it into CC.

If you're losing your ability to strike at initiative on anything but ruins-type area terrain your prior positioning was bad, and if you're charging through ruins you get the cover save and increased survivability but hit later, which I grant is not an even trade off but is a legitimate trade off. At 20pts a piece with unit-wide ap2, a 3+ armour save, and str5 on the charge after a certain point incubi are definitely slightly undercosted for what their intended for, but that intended use is far more limited than people want it to be.

I'm going to say this again because it seems more true with every example GW churns out. Our t3 bodies are really only hella overpriced because it takes 3 turns for the PfP table to kick in. If we started the game with FNP, and recieved the turn 4-7 bonuses over turns 2-5 instead our individual bodies would downright competitive. Turn 2 furious charge, turn 3 fearless. Base codex haemonculi make a unit fearless turn 2.

an idea for the problems that incubi face would be to separate the archon from them and charge in first, eating overwatch and hopefully not get instagibbed.
Do they then get full initiative even though they charged through terrain?

They only lose initiative if they charge through difficult terrain, and the only area terrain types that are automatically difficult terrain are ruins and craters. IF you do not run over an object or one of these 2 terrain types you're striking at initiative barring fear or other usr's on the charged unit.

doriii wrote:

an idea for the problems that incubi face would be to separate the archon from them and charge in first, eating overwatch and hopefully not get instagibbed.
Do they then get full initiative even though they charged through terrain?

Nope, having the charged unit locked in combat only makes it unable to overwatch.
Doesn't help the charging unit with the initiative 1 caused by difficult terrain.

Quote :

At 20pts a piece with unit-wide ap2, a 3+ armour save, and str5 on the charge after a certain point incubi are definitely slightly undercosted for what their intended for, but that intended use is far more limited than people want it to be.

In what bizarro-world is an Incubi undercosted? They're the most overpriced unit in the codex IMO save perhaps the Wych. To make this abundantly clear, let's compare donuts to donuts for a minute and stack them against another close combat oriented elite: the Howling Banshee. Both have Fleet and neither have grenades, however the Banshees have Acrobatic which takes away the penalty for not having grenades and charging *and* increases run and charge distance by 3" automatically. They have Eldar stat lines with the Banshees having a WS4/5 instead of 5/6, AP3 instead of AP2, and a 4+ save instead of a 3+. This means the Incubi are slightly more durable, but the Banshees all have the Banshee Mask which cancels out all Overwatch, thus eliminating one of the most deadly things inherent in a close combat unit. The Banshees also have pistols because being able to shoot things is sometimes handy, especially when shooting things can yield the occasional Bladestorm result. This is excluding the Exarch/Klaivex comparison in which I feel the Exarch has it all over the Klaivex between the extra wound and the -2 to leadership, and the Executioner which is basically the Klaive on steroids.

So the Incubi are hardier and stronger but the Banshees do more attacks, get where they're going faster, if you take them in an Aspect Host they lose the WS penalty, and they get into combat more reliably with fewer dangers. They also cost 7 points less each. And yet no one is running Howling Banshees because frankly they're kinda garbage compared to what those points could be spent on in other parts of the codex. If you bring Howling Banshees to the table, no one is going to complain you're running a broken list. They're probably the most straight forward, vanilla unit in the codex aside from Dire Avengers and they could eat a squad of Incubi for breakfast both one on one and in army composition.

You mentioned FNP and Furious Charge. IDK what your meta is like but here, there is S6 coming out of people's ears. FNP on anything T3 is virtually useless now because a scatter laser or a thunderwolf cavalry can double me out. Getting into combat is a nightmare because everything has a jetpack or is cavalry or is a jetbike or is a beast. That's why I run Grotesques almost every game, they're immune to all the usual Dark Eldar weaknesses and are counter-meta in ways people do not expect. Plus weight of dice is king right now.

Just to clear up some misunderstandings - difficult terrain covers a lot more than ruins.  From the BRB under 'Terrain Types':

Quote :

Difficult terrain slows down models wishing to move through it. It includes areas of
rubble, woods, ruins, rocky outcrops, boggy ground, low walls, tanglewire, barricades,
steep hills, streams and other shallow water, as well as terrain features that combine
several of these types.

Pretty much all area terrain I see is either woods or ruins.

The idea to charge the archon in first is good if the enemy has a ridiculous amount of shooting but it won't give the Incubi I5.  Avoiding the initiative penalty only works if the unit was locked in combat from a previous turn:

Quote :

If a unit charges into a multiple combat in which all the enemy units are
locked in combat from a previous turn, the Initiative penalty for charging
through difficult terrain does not apply.

Most of the time you might as well just put him at the front of the unit and keep the ability to "look out sir" wounds away in an emergency.

I feel like the codex writers didn't appreciate what the phantasm launcher change would do to the Incubi.  When they could get assault grenades the unit worked really nicely!