Ynnari Tactics - Initial impressions

BetrayTheWorld wrote:

aurynn wrote:

I will repeat it again... pure DE army did place 8th on 2016 'Ardboyz.

When you say "the" 2016 ard boyz tournament, which one are you referring to? Because it was my understanding that GW cancelled the "Official" Ard Boyz tournament in 2012, and has yet to reinstate it. If you look on the internet and ITC list, you can see several "Ard Boyz" styled tournaments that use the name, but most of them are in Nowhere, Utah or something, where I don't anticipate they had the numbers of the Original Ard Boyz tournament.

But I could be wrong. Got a link? Here's mine showing an article about GW canceling Ard Boyz in 2012: Ard Boyz Canceled

I am not sure TBH, its months now since I have seen it, but I believe it was Lawrence who scored the 8th if it helps. I know that the official 'Ard Boyz were cancelled, but there are events held in its spirit as I understand it. However I have never been there so there is always the possibility that I might have been deceived by the presented name of the tourney.

But my point is, that DE are not nearly the worst army and I detest it being portrayed as exceptionally weak. It is weaker in some aspects of its raw killing power and in some obvious "disadvantages", but it is stronger in certain significant tactical options and do have a some solutions that others dont have. Last year has seen a shift of meta, increasing the number of strong lists you can face to the point where TAC is impossible, which leads to the point where personal plan and tactics matter more than tackling what is thrown at you. Which consequently led to the improvement of our "power" position. I certainly feel it. And now, with the Ynnari, it got even better.

AND as I said before - we are closing fast to a next edition. The current state of things is largely irrelevant. :-)

OK, that answers that question.

aurynn wrote:

But my point is, that DE are not nearly the worst army and I detest it being portrayed as exceptionally weak.

Oh, ok. In that case, I disagree with you. If it isn't the worst army, it's certainly in contention for the title.

1 or 2 effective ways to play an army, does not a good army make.

Unless by DE you mean DE+Allies/Yncarne, in which case I agree that we've improved since the release of our codex.

I'd definitely argue that Orks and Tyranids are definitely worse off than us. CSM were too, prior to the release of Traitor Legions, but I haven't played them often enough since then to make a new assessment. Most Chaos Daemon armies are pretty screwed, but I haven't had a chance to see their newish supplements in action recently.

Sisters of Battle, Blood Angels, Militarum Tempestus, and IG are all in pretty rough shape these days, too.

Necrons, Tau, CWE, and SM are all pretty much better than we are at this point, though.

I agree with Jimsolo.

AND from what I have seen - a smart DE player can outplay a smart SM player. While not-so-good DE player cannot outplay a not-so-good SM player.

DE (without Ynnadi) are very good against CWE bikespam as I have both seen and played. They are very good against Magnus and friends as I have seen. No. We are not even contesting worst army.
We are probably the most unfriendly and difficult army to play. But not weak.

I do think that Dark Eldar are less forgiving and more difficult to master than some armies, however, which can lead to a misperception that they are more powerful.

Jim, how often do you run pure DE these days?

Um... Nids in a Tournament setting are MUCH better than DE.... now I'd agree that the DE book is slightly better over all, but Nids have 4 insanely strong units that can be spammed and win events.

Orcs are for sure weaker than DE, but not by much IMO.

Probably about 50% of the time.

Of course, I don't think it's necessary to run 'pure' Dark Eldar to get a sense of their competitive capacity. A list which is primarily Dark Eldar suffices, I think.

Jimsolo wrote:

I'd definitely argue that Orks and Tyranids are definitely worse off than us.  CSM were too, prior to the release of Traitor Legions, but I haven't played them often enough since then to make a new assessment.  Most Chaos Daemon armies are pretty screwed, but I haven't had a chance to see their newish supplements in action recently.

Sisters of Battle, Blood Angels, Militarum Tempestus, and IG are all in pretty rough shape these days, too.  

Necrons, Tau, CWE, and SM are all pretty much better than we are at this point, though.  

Daemons are insanely strong - perhaps more than any other force. The CSM got a definite boost thanks to Wrath of Magnus and Traitor legions (though the build variety is not much better).

Blood angels have also had a boost to T2 (up from T3). I would argue Necrons also belong in T2 these days as their builds have not really kept up with the new releases.

CWE, Tau and SM are still the top 3 (in no particular order) - though this is a generalisation based on average expected event finish for the factions in question.

I think that the meta-existance of the list, that is it's identity, it's gimmick is what's important and what denotes a "strong" faction is merely either the viability of volume of diffent identities or the oppressive presence of a few.

Jimsolo wrote:

Probably about 50% of the time.  

Of course, I don't think it's necessary to run 'pure' Dark Eldar to get a sense of their competitive capacity.  A list which is primarily Dark Eldar suffices, I think.

I don't think so, because the codices they're being compared to are the "no allies" codices. So they're being compared to pure Orks, and pure Tyranids.

The point is that DE alone are one of the weakest armies. If you're combining them with Eldar, you're combining them with one of the stronger armies, so of course they're going to be competitively viable at that point. But without allies, they have insurmountable, glaring weaknesses that leave them worse off in a 1 faction only scenario than either orks or tyranids.

But it's irrelevant. The fact that it's even debatable proves my point. It's competing with the bottom 2 codices in the game about who's the worst.

Massaen wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:

I'd definitely argue that Orks and Tyranids are definitely worse off than us.  CSM were too, prior to the release of Traitor Legions, but I haven't played them often enough since then to make a new assessment.  Most Chaos Daemon armies are pretty screwed, but I haven't had a chance to see their newish supplements in action recently.

Sisters of Battle, Blood Angels, Militarum Tempestus, and IG are all in pretty rough shape these days, too.  

Necrons, Tau, CWE, and SM are all pretty much better than we are at this point, though.  

Daemons are insanely strong - perhaps more than any other force. The CSM got a definite boost thanks to Wrath of Magnus and Traitor legions (though the build variety is not much better).

Blood angels have also had a boost to T2 (up from T3). I would argue Necrons also belong in T2 these days as their builds have not really kept up with the new releases.

CWE, Tau and SM are still the top 3 (in no particular order) - though this is a generalisation based on average expected event finish for the factions in question.

Daemons are stupidly strong..... the new Pink Horrors, Magnus, The Daemon Prince formation, Screamer stars, the summoning.... When a player has 40+ dice, summons 4 units and has Magnus thats unkillable just pooping everywhere.... They do have many lists as well.

Also about Tau.. ITC bans a few of there more powerful lists, the problem with Tournament lists comparisons is that many formations and CADs are not allowed. Tau for example, the Priona (?spelling) formation that lets you take 3-4 of them, they can go off the table and come back at full strength? Its stupidly strong.

But this Book IMO did bring some nice light to many DE units, a few Eldar friends of mine are now buying a couple DE units lol.

But you can't compare them in a vacuum--a primarily DE list can ally with other factions, so that's one of the factors that you have to consider when talking about whether it's a good codex or not.

The fact that Orks and Tyranids can't ally with anyone definitely contributes to my opinion of their competitive capacity. Without a doubt.

But I think it's virtually impossible to give a hard list of 'best to worst,' given how many plates are spinning when discussing armies. Still, I think there are at least three armies that I will always consider to be at a disadvantage against DE. (Orks, Nids, Sisters. Maybe GK as well.)

Jimsolo wrote:

But you can't compare them in a vacuum--a primarily DE list can ally with other factions, so that's one of the factors that you have to consider when talking about whether it's a good codex or not.

The fact that Orks and Tyranids can't ally with anyone definitely contributes to my opinion of their competitive capacity.  Without a doubt.  

But I think it's virtually impossible to give a hard list of 'best to worst,' given how many plates are spinning when discussing armies.  Still, I think there are at least three armies that I will always consider to be at a disadvantage against DE.  (Orks, Nids, Sisters. Maybe GK as well.)

Gk and SOB will honestly depend on the list, if they are Flamer heavy lists, DE doesnt stand a chance. I have a 3-4k SoB army I play time to time and I dont use Exorcist, I use 1 unit of Rending Flamers and 1 unit of Rending HB's, I have a Flamer in every Troop squad as well. I sometimes play with Pipe Lines so i can get easy Torrent Flamers.

I play 4 Dominions but 2 of the Immolators are always are Flamers, so Scouting Flamers as well.

Intercepters? Spelling GK units that can jump with Flamers are really nice too and I have some friends that play them.

Im not saying DE is a auto lose, just that GK and SoB have some of the best tools to kill DE with.

Edit: SOB honestly for me are very stale to play, its very straight forwards sense they dont have good movement besides Celestine and Dominions scouting, they get a extremely good turn 1-2 and if they dont kill enough it just goes down hill. But oh man turn 2 for SOB is SO MUCH damage lol.

Orks have plenty of allies options with only 2 listed as come the apocalypse. DE on the other hand have 3 that fall into the same category but have more BB.

The main one that both DE and Orks care about - Tau - is desperate for both.

Tau fill in significant gaps for both lists (though it can be argued that CWE work better for DE).

Neither have a Battle Brother, though. (Unless you count GSC, but I wasn't, really.) And that matters.

As a thought exercise/joke, are Ynnari better at a footslogging WAAAAGH style army than orks? The Bladehost (wyches/guardians/harlequins) seemto be the best horde unit as they soulburst as one and wyches/guardians are also great at dying in the open.

Basically send a big blob of death seeking space elves down the middle shooting and stabbing everything in reach.

Harlequin CAD with Visarch. OBSEC troupes.

HokutoAndy wrote:

As a thought exercise/joke, are Ynnari better at a footslogging WAAAAGH style army than orks? The Bladehost (wyches/guardians/avengers) seemto be the best horde unit as they soulburst as one and wyches/guardians are also great at dying in the open.

Basically send a big blob of death seeking space elves down the middle shooting and stabbing everything in reach.

Me and a friend were talking about if you make a Large Harlequins unit with Shadowsweers and other IC's to make a DS you could just walk from combat to combat (with would be a 15-20 man unit with 4-5 IC's easily) With Farseers and Warlocks behind them as well.

You can have an insanely buffed Melee unit with literally 5 different Initiative steps beasts being Backed up by any powers you want. Inculding Invis, Viel of Tears, Misfortune etc....

Wyches arnt that good at all, I wouldnt do it with them honestly.

A single unit can only soul burst once per turn.

If this hasn't been shared already here's the rules leak on Black Guardians: https://imgur.com/a/ZZYSe

They're a bit pricier than the normal version but gain 1st turn no-scatter deepstriking. The guardians feel stupidly priced, especially since their points increase is the same as the jetbikers which are just a better value to begin with.

amorrowlyday wrote:

A single unit can only soul burst once per turn.

Thats all you need tho. b.c sense you have other units Around that main melee unit those other units will get to as well.

The main Idea if that you can Melee on your opponents turn with a multi charge (easily killing 2 things) then on your turn use the Soulburst to be able to charge 2 units in total, in 1 game turn you could have been able to make 3 charge moves but due to large footprint and good positioning you should be able to make 1-2 multi charges easily. A "perfect" scenario you would get to charge 6+ units in 1 game turn.

This unit (looking at the points) in only about 600 for 12 Troupes all weapons 4 shadowseers , you dont need the Farseers, but it would be helpful, very helpful.

that leaves over 1000pts, I would pay the 250 pts for bikes that can soulburst and support this unit also then you just spam the rest on Bikes or a WK if you like with some bikes

HokutoAndy wrote:

If this hasn't been shared already here's the rules leak on Black Guardians: https://imgur.com/a/ZZYSe

They're a bit pricier than the normal version but gain 1st turn no-scatter deepstriking. The guardians feel stupidly priced, especially since their points increase is the same as the jetbikers which are just a better value to begin with.

The boot is out now, it was "released" on the 12th i "quote" it b.c many stores sold it a few days early.

amorrowlyday wrote:

Harlequin CAD with Visarch. OBSEC troupes.

This I just don't get.

I would MUCH rather run a jest or revenge in the Ynnari detachment with the minimum troops (2x3 scatbikes) plus the Visarch or Yvraine. You get the best of both worlds this way.

Harlequins NEED run and charge far more than obsec in my mind and by running them this way you get soulburst as well

See that's the thing: I put non-harlequin IC's in my squads so I don't benefit from the run and charge bit generally. So I'm rolling between only using ynnari characters in those squads, which will probably work, or taking the CAD so I definitely get some sort of bonus.