Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks

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You will almost certainly have to change the way you play as the game is different!

The game isn't different, it's a different game. This isn't 6th to 7th or even 5th to 6th, this is AoS with a 40k skin. We're playing something now but it's not 40k. You can say otherwise now, but once you start rolling dice and moving mice, you're going to agree. Which is my entire problem with the game, as for me, this is a case of "beware of what you want, it might want you more." I wanted Dark Eldar to be top tier. Well now we are, but so much about the faction, the story, the game, the setting, and the characters has changed that it's not even the same army anymore.

As for Tee-apostrophe-au, Xivai is right. They're in the dumpster. I never thought I'd feel sorry for a Tau player but I feel sorry for Tau players now. Their armies are severely hamstrung now. Have I played them? No. Do I speak from experience? No. But who was saying we were going to be top shelf when this edition first started to be talked about? Who predicted Tee-aspostrophe-au would be nerfed into the dirt? Who said this edition would be almost identical to AoS? Who said the game would revolve around charging, combat, and getting that first turn Ironjawz charge off? But it's just my opinion.

@Xivai I'm hearing good things about Crisis Commanders, might wanna look hard at that.

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I wanted Dark Eldar to be top tier. Well now we are,

I've seen you explain the base reasoning for this on other threads, now that we have definitive crunch for both our army as well as the core game rules, could you elaborate your opinions in a more concrete manner? I found your hypothesis to have some good theoretical reasoning, but I'd be interested to see if the reality has held up as well as your predictions told.

TeenageAngst wrote:

The game isn't different, it's a different game. This isn't 6th to 7th or even 5th to 6th, this is AoS with a 40k skin. We're playing something now but it's not 40k. You can say otherwise now, but once you start rolling dice and moving mice, you're going to agree. Which is my entire problem with the game, as for me, this is a case of "beware of what you want, it might want you more." I wanted Dark Eldar to be top tier. Well now we are, but so much about the faction, the story, the game, the setting, and the characters has changed that it's not even the same army anymore.

I have said that its a brand new game more than once. you are nit picking. Its exactly the same as the transition from 2nd to 3rd but with the internet allowing more public worry and hand wringing. Its 100% 40k - just a new set of rules for it like then. Its not AOS either - there are plenty of differences between 8th and AoS not to mention (and I have said this plenty of times as well...) 40k did AoS rules first - 20 years ago! *sigh*

These index are all stop gaps until we get proper faction books - expect all the flavour and stories then. Nothing from 7th has changed that we know of since the fluff part of the books has not been leaked yet so saying the army has changed in these regards is disingenuous.

TeenageAngst wrote:

As for Tee-apostrophe-au, Xivai is right. They're in the dumpster. I never thought I'd feel sorry for a Tau player but I feel sorry for Tau players now. Their armies are severely hamstrung now. Have I played them? No. Do I speak from experience? No. But who was saying we were going to be top shelf when this edition first started to be talked about? Who predicted Tee-aspostrophe-au would be nerfed into the dirt? Who said this edition would be almost identical to AoS? Who said the game would revolve around charging, combat, and getting that first turn Ironjawz charge off? But it's just my opinion.

haha. Tau are not nerfed into the dirt. Not by a long shot. They got plenty to look forward to but the easy win button seems to have been taken away from them - that's all. I keep hearing how ham strung they are but its always just that - nothing more than doom saying and no hard evidence as to why. As for DE being top tier - clearly you are not reading this very forum! We suck - or did you miss the dozens of posts...

TheBaconPope wrote:

Quote :

I wanted Dark Eldar to be top tier. Well now we are,

I've seen you explain the base reasoning for this on other threads, now that we have definitive crunch for both our army as well as the core game rules, could you elaborate your opinions in a more concrete manner? I found your hypothesis to have some good theoretical reasoning, but I'd be interested to see if the reality has held up as well as your predictions told.

Void Shield Generators put out a 12" bubble of 4++ save.

Scourges are dirt cheap heavy weapons platforms, but vulnerable.

I have a Scourge, I have a VSG

*UGH*

Pro-meta list.

A 4++ save does zero against basic small arms or even some medium S weapons - where your 4+ armour is the same thing...

Putting scourges in a VSG range and thinking this is a pro-meta list is laughable.

Personally, I don't know what to do with the vehicles. Shall we still use them? Are they actually worth it?
Or better to invest in more Kabalite Warriors?

TeenageAngst wrote:

Void Shield Generators put out a 12" bubble of 4++ save.
Scourges are dirt cheap heavy weapons platforms, but vulnerable.
[...]
Pro-meta list.

I legitimately can't tell if you believe what you're saying or not, but there has never been a world where going from T3 4+ to T3 4++ has made a model notably more survivable. Scourges were never gonna die because somebody fired AP -3 guns at them or even AP -1 guns at them. They were gonna die because someone fired boltguns at them.

mynamelegend wrote:

TeenageAngst wrote:

Void Shield Generators put out a 12" bubble of 4++ save.
Scourges are dirt cheap heavy weapons platforms, but vulnerable.
[...]
Pro-meta list.

I legitimately can't tell if you believe what you're saying or not, but there has never been a world where going from T3 4+ to T3 4++ has made a model notably more survivable. Scourges were never gonna die because somebody fired AP -3 guns at them or even AP -1 guns at them. They were gonna die because someone fired boltguns at them.

At 36" range and with a bunch of close combat units between the Scourges and whatever might be trying to shoot at them, if things are close to them something bad happened.

CptMetal wrote:

Personally, I don't know what to do with the vehicles. Shall we still use them? Are they actually worth it?
Or better to invest in more Kabalite Warriors?

As I said elsewhere, I suspect the vehicle price hike was there to discourage venom spam with blasterwarrs/trueborn. Our transports are 100% more expensive, but we are probably going to play at 2500 pts to keep roughly the 1850 army size of 7th. And we have Split Fire, so its no biggie. Transports have their uses still IMO. Its just about how and what you want to play. Will you use the higher allowance for more bodies, or quick army?

TeenageAngst wrote:

mynamelegend wrote:

TeenageAngst wrote:

Void Shield Generators put out a 12" bubble of 4++ save.
Scourges are dirt cheap heavy weapons platforms, but vulnerable.
[...]
Pro-meta list.

I legitimately can't tell if you believe what you're saying or not, but there has never been a world where going from T3 4+ to T3 4++ has made a model notably more survivable. Scourges were never gonna die because somebody fired AP -3 guns at them or even AP -1 guns at them. They were gonna die because someone fired boltguns at them.

At 36" range and with a bunch of close combat units between the Scourges and whatever might be trying to shoot at them, if things are close to them something bad happened.

What like a deep striking unit arriving in rapid fire range with no scatter? Can't imagine any situation in which that could occur. Oh wait....

Okay don't believe me.

You're right, I don't. "Deep striking a unit with a bunch of S4 firepower that packs enough of a punch to wipe a unit of five Scourges in one shooting phase" is an option that's available to basically every army.

Even we have that option. And when even the new and "improved" Dark Eldar can do something, you bet your ass everyone else can do it better.

mynamelegend wrote:

And when even the new and "improved" Dark Eldar can do something, you bet your ass everyone else can do it better.

*Cracks knuckles* Good. Then it might turn out to be an even game.

This is not a new codex. These are the barebones rules. I fully expect that There will be a Kabal book with unique Kabal rules, as well as a Wych cult book with unique cult rules, and a Covens book with unique coven rules. Maybe if we're lucky the first 2 will be the same book. I am thinking it will be like Fyreslayers and Kharadron Overlords only it will be KabaliCults (Drukhari) and Covens (insert new coven name here probably something like Fleshcrafters)

The Lelith Thing boggles my mind. They could have given her effectively the same rule as the drugs but just re-fluffed it to say she's whimsically killing her foes in a unique manner for this particular battle. Kinda fluffy and preserves a necessary aspect of her character. They clearly did not read her fluff before writing her rules, which is so disappointing I am confused how the writer assigned to Lelith was that grotesquely incompetent and no one caught his mistake.

TL;DR this is not as glorious as Frankie promised but it will do for the short term.

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You're right, I don't.

Good, you've saved me from having to write out enormous posts sharing my lists and strategies.

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The Lelith Thing boggles my mind. They could have given her effectively the same rule as the drugs but just re-fluffed it to say she's whimsically killing her foes in a unique manner for this particular battle. Kinda fluffy and preserves a necessary aspect of her character. They clearly did not read her fluff before writing her rules, which is so disappointing I am confused how the writer assigned to Lelith was that grotesquely incompetent and no one caught his mistake.

That little mistake is pretty much the most perfect example of the entire vibe I get from this edition. Simplicity at all costs, even lore related ones. Never have I cared so little about something I've spent so much money on as when I realized I now possessed 3 "Dark Eldar" armies that no longer mesh together at all and who's fluff is unrecognizably broken.

Can anyone think of any reason to ever bring the void lance now?

The 1 point of strength used to matter for shooting vehicle but now it will only ever matter against tough 9 or 16. Which we have seen none of.

Just realized grots are not 31 pts ... they are 40pts!
+9 pts for the flesh gauntlets and massive cleavers.

This is truly the most asinine formatting system they could have used.

Pros

So, beastpacks don't look terrible minus the razorwings. All of the HQs buff their entourage decently. Mandrakes can do mortal wounds. The named HQs seem really solid and cheap. Urien seems to be the only unit tagged with Prophets of the Flesh. He seems survivable. Still, curious to see how raiders and ravagers hold up in a match.

Cons

Nerfed caltrops, Talos, and dual SC venoms.

All the indexes are really basic lists and it's really inconvenient the points don't cover base gear. Their will definitely be more books.

Hahahaha, this is the Rt era / 2nd ed points formats coming back and god I wish they had not!

To people who think you don't pay for base gear - check out the cost of a Dark Reaper per model!

lament.config wrote:

So, beastpacks don't look terrible minus the razorwings.

Khymerae seem pretty much unchanged. Nothing exciting at all about the Clawed Fiend now and the Razorwings are presumably some sort of joke? What really made me fall off my chair though is the cost of the Beastmaster - 56 points!! What on earth were the designers smoking when they came up with that one?

Massaen wrote:

To people who think you don't pay for base gear - check out the cost of a Dark Reaper per model!

I'm assuming that's some sort of joke too as even without wargear, the Dark Reaper has better stats than a Guardian who costs 8 points.

Dark reapers are 5 points per model!

Their launchers are 31 per model though

Massaen wrote:

Dark reapers are 5 points per model!

Their launchers are 31 per model though

Yes but the cost of their launchers shouldn't alter their base cost. Why are they barely half the cost of a guardian when they are objectively better?

Guardian - M 7", WS 3+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 1, A 1, LD 7, Sv 5+, Ancient Doom, Battle Focus
Dark Reaper - M 6", WS 3+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 1, A 1, LD 8, Sv 3+, Ancient Doom. Inescapable Accuracy

TeenageAngst wrote:

Quote :

You will almost certainly have to change the way you play as the game is different!

The game isn't different, it's a different game. This isn't 6th to 7th or even 5th to 6th, this is AoS with a 40k skin. We're playing something now but it's not 40k. You can say otherwise now, but once you start rolling dice and moving mice, you're going to agree. Which is my entire problem with the game, as for me, this is a case of "beware of what you want, it might want you more." I wanted Dark Eldar to be top tier. Well now we are, but so much about the faction, the story, the game, the setting, and the characters has changed that it's not even the same army anymore.

As for Tee-apostrophe-au, Xivai is right. They're in the dumpster. I never thought I'd feel sorry for a Tau player but I feel sorry for Tau players now. Their armies are severely hamstrung now. Have I played them? No. Do I speak from experience? No. But who was saying we were going to be top shelf when this edition first started to be talked about? Who predicted Tee-aspostrophe-au would be nerfed into the dirt? Who said this edition would be almost identical to AoS? Who said the game would revolve around charging, combat, and getting that first turn Ironjawz charge off? But it's just my opinion.

@Xivai I'm hearing good things about Crisis Commanders, might wanna look hard at that.

Thanks Angst. Hopefulyl GW live up to their word and rolls in buffs for us sooner and trusts Frankie and Reece less explicitly and at face value. They are just humans who make a lot of mistakes. Like vastly overestimting Tau effectivness of other untis that weren't super OP last edition.

Yeah we're looking right now trying to find something usable and Crisis Commander spam seems to be possibly semi-viable. It has to be tested of course.

@Massaen
Oh yeah we are. Look at Necron Destroyers. Way cheaper and more cost effective than a fully kitted Crisis suit with drones. In a one on one fight one of them would probably kick a crisis ass and the crisis team is way more than spamming them. They can also move and shoot heavy weapons with no penalty. They also hit on 3+ where as we are hitting on 4+ or possibly 5+ if we have to advance move to try run away which seems pointless since he can do the same thing at the same speed and still be firing at bs 4+.  

I'm going to be playing a guy's 2k Necron list soon and just his destroyers's and wraiths are strong enough to mop up almost our entire army let alone the other half with his HQ and 2+ BS warriors with invul saves out the wazoo.

Even a Stormsurges 4 Destroyer strength missiles will only kill 2 of his 16 wraiths on average and that is with anchors deployed. One of our strongest weapons on our most expensive units in 7th and even more so in 8th.

Think about that for a second. We have nothing that can even hope to stop them and none of our unit will last long enough in melee to be more than a bad speed bump.

I'm in exactly the same position with DE. Last night I played against:

20 warriors - Gauss Flayer - 240 pts.
10 Immortals - Tesla Carbines - 170 pts

He let me pick 500 points of any DE I wanted and just try and kill them. Anyone want to try and make a list that can get anywhere NEAR beating that, because I couldn't manage it in 5 attempts.

Yea, but this is misleading. 500pts of your shooting should not kill 500pts of his units. If you bring down full bear of your army on them, you should kill them just fine. New necrons mess with target priority. You need to focus fire them IMO.

EDIT: Not mentioning that the winning is not as much about killing.