Actually getting our troops into combat

I've been having this internal debate as I want to run Drazhar with Incubi and Haemy with either Wracks or Grots in my larger point games.

There are a couple solutions and things to keep in mind that I'm working on -

1. As I read the rules, we get 3" with pile in, and an additional 3" on consolidate. We get two chances when the Raider fights to create some space for disembarking.

2. Reaver or Mandrake tie-up - Have a small unit of 3 Reavers charge from the side. Alternatively, 5 Mandrakes from Reinforcements can accomplish the same thing. If you know you're going to do this, simply move the Raider closer in the movement phase in the same turn in which you charge with the Reavers/Mandrakes.

3. Raider charge - If we get to charge, position the Raider how we want to, the enemy only gets 6" total to try to surround it with a 3" pile in and 3" consolidate. With 10 wounds on T5 and a 4+, whatever can kill a Raider in one turn of melee could probably kill whatever's inside it too so you likely wouldn't have charged it.

Ok, Yesterday i played 2 games with 5 melee units (3 in venoms 2 in Raiders).

I went against Daemons and Tyranids (both able to surround me easily)

Safe to say i got into CC extremely easy both games with 4 units when i wanted to and the last unit, each game one of the vehicles were wrecked.

I took 3 units of Wrack with Electrowhips and Offsefactors and 2 units of Wyches with Hydra Gauntlets, Agonsier, PGL.

I like Wracks MUCH more than Wyches, omg do i lol, they Wyches in both games literally did almost nothing, i tried +1 attack, +1 str in each game and it didnt matter as much compare to the Wracks.

For 3pts more they always wound on 4's, 1 more attack, T5 (had Haemi, these guys are beasts!) and Electro is D2 over D1.

I used Screeners, Flocks, i stay back a bit a couple turns to shoot to do damage and poke holes in there armies to give me good charge picks.


Bat Reps (typed fast leaving soon didnt have time for full reports)

Against Daemons he was a bit more Mechanized and he was Smite spam, it was a bit different (Play testing things).

It was a lower model count,
he had 5 DP's with Fly/Tzeentch
2 Defilers
Soul Grinder
And 2 chariots of Tzeentch?

The 2 Ravagers basically spent all game shooting the Defilers and Soul Grinder, easily killed the 2 Defilers, he CC me with the Soul Grinder to keep it alive (Im ok with this, in the end it didnt do much)

His DP's fly close to targets to Smite, he can move faster than my CC units outside of transports, but i keep my whole melee part of my army in a Ball and rotated the vehicles so his Smites wouldnt hit the same vehicles, he started to leap around more and he got out position.

The i started to do my characters, i killed 3 DP's in melee in total and the other 2 with Poison.

His MVP's where the Chariots, i mistakenly thought they had <vehicle> rule so i didnt shoot my Poison at them... lol if i knew they didnt he would have been tabled.

Against Nids, my Friend likes to bring Tervigons, the game was a wet noodle fight literally all... game.....

My flocks got turn 2 charge, my Wyches and Wracks stay back another turn to shoot/stay away from the Mawlocs, Biovores and Tyrgons.

I did the same thing, kept my melee units close, when his Malwoc and Trygon come in, i charged right away, took a couple turns but finally killed them (Wyches did nothing.....)

He did win that game b.c he had 2 Tervigons and 30 gants on one of the important objectives, I also did NOT take Ravages or other D3 damage weapons b.c i was testing out a melee build with Wracks, Haemi's, Cronos and Wyches.


Conclusion

Over all turn 2-3 (more-so on turn 3) charges are really easy to do, over all my 1st thought that Warrior units with a Melee build Sarget completely out shines Wyches, if you need to melee 1 guy hitting on 2+ and wounding on 4+ (same as Wych Sargent) is same out put in damage in melee, but will be doing more wounds all game due to shooting.
Turn 4+ Kabal Charging isnt a bad thing IMO.

With that said I think i will for sure bring a Haemi as an HQ b.c they are pretty good, I will most likely get a unit of Wracks for him to be in.

That's interested stuff amishprn86...

The reason I play Dark Eldar is because of how much I like the miniatures and Wracks are up there with my fav so I was hoping they had a place and it seems like they do. I intend to focus my melee around a Heamonculous and possibly up to 9 Wracks all in a Raider together...but I won't use that build for every game.

I also want to find a way of getting the most out of Reavers.

The cool part will be that with the Wracks via a buff, the Reavers via the drugs and the vehicles via their stats, over half of my Dark Eldar army will be T5.

Did you find the ossefactors worth it?

Woozl wrote:

Did you find the ossefactors worth it?

It killed 2-3 guys each ossefactor each game, i dont think i'll take them again but they "got their points back"

I was thinking easy way to go around invuls.

What was the equipement of your whiches amishprn86 ? Cause i dont see how they can have done nothing to a trygon. I do think wracks are stronger than whiches but i think we cant say they outclass them in any aspect. Wyches are faster, can shoot and are cheaper then wracks (10 Wyches with everything exept Phantasm Grenade are cheaper than 10 wracks with nothing). And funny things whyches won against wracks in cc, even with an Heamy close and without succubus

Edit: Ah yeah and Whiches are more hard to kill (or equivalent) in CC except against S4 opponent (if Wracks are T5, if not then they are allways more persistent in CC)

The Wyches? Agoniser, Hyrda Gauntlets, PGL.

Wyches are cheaper b.c they are weaker...

Wracks 2 Attacks base and a sargent with 3 attacks, Wyches have 1 attack and 2 on sargent.
So 5 Wracks does same attacks as 10 Wyches.

Wracks are all poison 4+ (so Str doesnt matter) and sargent weapon is 2 damage (better vs multi-wounds). Wyches are S3 unless it has a specialist weapon or Agoniser.

Wracks have T4 5++ at all times, Wyches are T3 4++ only in combat (I consider this a wash and sense you play Haemi with Wracks they are T5, to me T5 5++ in combat is just as survivable as T3,4++)

Wyches drugs can give them +1 str or +1 attack to make them a bit more useful, but i found if you have +1 attack you still need 5's or 6's to wound, if you do +1 Str you only get 6 attacks.

I think if you are going to play either Wyches or Bloodbride you need large numbers and Succubus's around giving them +1 str to be able to wound things on 4/5+ instead of 5/6+ and you re-roll you misses making those 11 hits more liking to hit.

Actually whyches weapon give them an aditional attack. They have the same amount than wracks exept for the sergent. And yeah they are less strong, but not useless in comparison, just have a different role. For the drugs the strongest one is the + attack definitively, + strength is ok but pretty meh cause useless for the sergent

Edit: No Blast pistol on your whiches ? Cause its really usefull ( could help a lot against that trygon for exemple)

@amishprn86 I think you need to take another look at wyches as I don't know where you are getting 6 attacks without drugs from unless you meant total possible wounds ... Each wych gets two attacks, the hekatrii blade they have says if they attack with that weapon they get an additional attack so for all intents and purposes each basic wych gets 2 attacks ... The Sargent actually loses an attack by going with an agonizer as the agonizer doesn't give a bonus attack for using it ... Each of the wych special weapons except, I believe, the shardnet and impaler, which does 2 damage at a -1 modifier, also infer a bonus attack for using the weapon, so a unit of 5 wyches with +1 str drug and no special weapons would have 11 attacks ... If the sargent takes an agonizer, as will almost always be the case, then that drops to 10, 9 if you take a shardnet and impaler as the wych special weapon ... A unit of ten will have 21 attacks with no agonizer, 20 with one, and 19 with a shardnet and impaler, given the +1 attack drug that jumps to a unit of 5 having 16, 15 with agonizer, and 14 with agonizer and shardnet and impaler. For a unit of 10 it would be, 31 attacks, 30 with agonizer, and 29 with shardnet and impaler, this isn't counting the pistol shots that wyches would also get. But I do agree that Wracks are tougher outside of combat but inside that are basically the same. I have used both in my couple of games of 8th and found they did equally ... However I will concede I have only played one game using each major keyword (wych cult, coven, kabal) so I can't say in the long run which is actually better, just that a unit of 5 Wracks puts out the same amount of attacks that a unit of 5 wyches does and at 10 wyches put out more attacks.

Edit: I apologise for repeating most of the above comment made by Quauchtemoc

Your right i've been playing them wrong.

I thought it was only the special weapon that gave it to them.
I will try them again but its not just the attacks, the T5 and always wounds on 4's over 5's

Well this week i'll play 4-5 games with just wyches

A little thing I learned from my one game, as I did the random drugs, ... The leadership +2 makes a unit of 5 wyches immune to the morale phase

amishprn86 wrote:

Your right i've been playing them wrong.

I thought it was only the special weapon that gave it to them.
I will try them again but its not just the attacks, the T5 and always wounds on 4's over 5's

Well this week i'll play 4-5 games with just wyches

Well Mathammer tell me that they are stronger against MEQ , but yeah against monstuous crea lik nids stuff wracks are better, and their is still the fact that xracks are hard to kill in shooting phase

Even if they got 1 more attack it still wouldnt have done anything in my games that i've played with them.

I try to make TAC lists and dont tailor for armies, i try to get a good list that i like that works against all armies, if Wyches and Wrakcs that the same slot for me, i'd rather have Wracks, but i am going to test them out more, try some things and even take Succubus instead.

amishprn86 wrote:

Even if they got 1 more attack it still wouldnt have done anything in my games that i've played with them.

I try to make TAC lists and dont tailor for armies, i try to get a good list that i like that works against all armies, if Wyches and Wrakcs that the same slot for me, i'd rather have Wracks, but i am going to test them out more, try some things and even take Succubus instead.

Well +1 attack maybe but blat pistol could have help (and with it there are still cheaper then wracks ! )

I take Fusion Pistols on my Harlequins i understand how they can be important, but i do not want Wyches to be played like that, i wanted a CC unit that will kill units in one round of CC, otherwise i will just shoot my Blasters, Lances, and Dis Cannons at them.

Im feel DE shouldnt be charging cheap CC units, Kabals, Hellions and Wracks till late game OR as a counter to units like Trygons, DS'ing Orks/Terminators etc..., Incubi and other strong CC units i like to use as shock CC units to kill things in hard cover like Dark Reapers in Ruins with Conceal.

Another reason why i like Wracks, b.c after Melee is done, i'm T4 with a 5++ against shooting

Wyches just dont work how i play, thats why i'm going to play like 300+ pts of them this week to see them in a game and list built just for them and not an important CC vape unit.

It sounds to me like this is talking about moving Raiders forward without support, which sounds like the opposite of how our army needs to be played.

If you're moving Raiders forward in turn 1, I would expect it to be a feint to distract the opponent from other units or an attempt to divide their forces.

I not moving around without support, i just dont focus on melee, i have 2 melee units normally otherwise its all shooting. And like i said i DONT charge 1st 2-3 turns 90% the time.

I also been playing with 20+ Razor Flocks, i have plenty of support.

I think for me it's b.c i dont need Melee so i dont invest enough points into them to be effective.

Like i said i'm going to take 1-2 Succubus's and a a few women squads to get the full effect.

My wyches actually did quite ok. They helped wipe some genestealers and killed a bunch of termagaunts. But jeah wracks also seem slightly more survivable to me. But in my Cult focussed army I prefer wyches I never have any problems with the big monsters anyway so in cc rarely need the poison of the wracks and actually prefer the s3 of the wyches so they can assault some ork buggies etc and actually kill them.