Rerolls before Modifiers

So, this was just brought to my attention:




The rule actually says:
"Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifers (if any) are applied."


Thoughts?

100% correct

So if you have a +1
And you get a reroll you can miss because of it...
Or is it always optional?

How on earth do you take a reroll before you calculate the score needed to succeed? That seems idiotic and it changes the outcome, makes the system more complicated and makes no sense.

10 shots at 3+ to hit with a re-roll but with a -1 hit modifier

Sensible system: 10 shots needing 4+ to hit, reroll misses = 7.5 hits
GW system: 10 shots needing 3+ to hit, reroll misses = 8.89 'hits' of which 25% miss due to -1 modifier resulting in 6.67 hits (ie, exactly the same number of hits that would have occurred with no modifiers whatsoever!)

Stole this from the FB group.


Does this cut both ways? Eg if I'm rolling 3s to hit rerolling misses but have a +1, do I have to reroll my 2s which would be hits if it wasn't for the reroll?


Brilliant. Good work GW. At least the game is more simple now.....

Rerolls are may or can - not must, so in the instances where you roll a 2 and have +1 you can chose not to reroll and then have it succeed thanks to the +1

But yes - its massively counter intuitive - partly due to learned process from older editions of 40k and other game systems. Its also because modifiers affect the dice roll - not the stat - now.

10 shots, BS3+ shooting at a venom (with -1 to the dice rolls) with a clause of 'may reroll missed to hit rolls'.

You get 4 shots that are 4+, 2 that are 3's and the last four a 1/2 results.

Under the shooting rules, missed to hit rolls are those that don't equal or exceed the BS stat.

Rerolls are indeed done before applying modifiers as per the rule book.

The 4 shots that are 4+ will hit. The 2 that are 3+ meet the requirement of a hit and can not be rerolled. The ones that are 1/2 don't hit so can be rerolled.

After rerolls your dice are 6 shots that are 4+, 2 that are 3's and 2 that are 1/2 results

You now apply the -1 to the dice rolls and compare them to the BS 3+.

The 6 shots that are 4+ are now modified down to 3+ or greater so all hit. The 2 that are 3's now resolve down to 2's and miss and the last 2 that were already below 3 miss as well.

Its going to make the process more convoluted sure - but thankfully, most rerolls are reroll 1's and not reroll all

The trick is going to be training yourself to think through this process as well as being able to explain it to others as naturally you are more likely to simply -1 from the BS and roll away

And of course remember which modifiers are a dice modifier
+1 or -1 to hit
And which modifiers change your stat (+1 ws).
Since I assume those are actually different now.

|Meavar wrote:

And of course remember which modifiers are a dice modifier
+1 or -1 to hit
And which modifiers change your stat (+1 ws).
Since I assume those are actually different now.

None that I have seen are modifiers to stats anymore - they all reference the dice roll. I could have missed one mind you. Given the caveat around rerolls before modifiers, I think its likely that all of them are now dice mods.

Massaen wrote:

The trick is going to be training yourself to think through this process as well as being able to explain it to others as naturally you are more likely to simply -1 from the BS and roll away

I think the trick is going to be talking to your opponent, agreeing it's a dumb way to do things and just using the sensible version that anyone who hasn't read the rules fully will be using anyway!

Count Adhemar wrote:

Massaen wrote:

The trick is going to be training yourself to think through this process as well as being able to explain it to others as naturally you are more likely to simply -1 from the BS and roll away

I think the trick is going to be talking to your opponent, agreeing it's a dumb way to do things and just using the sensible version that anyone who hasn't read the rules fully will be using anyway!

It might be sensible based on our pre-existing experience but it makes rerolls WAY better than they are intended to be if you play the rules as written and intended. Tourney players should be getting familiar with this new method because I can almost guarantee that's the way people will be learning it at the top end of the ladder.

Massaen wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

Massaen wrote:

The trick is going to be training yourself to think through this process as well as being able to explain it to others as naturally you are more likely to simply -1 from the BS and roll away

I think the trick is going to be talking to your opponent, agreeing it's a dumb way to do things and just using the sensible version that anyone who hasn't read the rules fully will be using anyway!

It might be sensible based on our pre-existing experience but it makes rerolls WAY better than they are intended to be if you play the rules as written and intended. Tourney players should be getting familiar with this new method because I can almost guarantee that's the way people will be learning it at the top end of the ladder.

You're assuming that GW intentionally made it this way to limit the effect of rerolls. I'm assuming they cocked up!

I foresee errata, as this is considerably more confusing (and "game-slowing") than it should be. Hopefully it will be in the rumored Day 1 errata/FAQ.

Actually, it may be a moot point, if the option to reroll implies that you can always choose which dice to reroll out of the pool of rerollable dice. If that is the case, then it doesn't matter whether you apply the modifier after the reroll or before, as you can just choose to keep the dice that will hit the target, and reroll the ones that won't. Of course, the answer to that question will require a FAQ entry at the very least.

So I assume that this would the same with ATSKNF? Say the need to roll a 4 or less to pass morale test and the unit has been hit with a PGL. If they roll a 4 and pass the test, we then apply the -1 LD from the PGL and they lose a model?

I am expecting this to be left as is - AoS is apparently the same system though I can't confirm that. If this were not the intent (ie limiting reroll impact) then the clause saying reroll then modify would have no reason to exist. It's been added explicitly, is clearly written (wow!) and is clear in its process. It's not what we are used to but that doesn't mean it's a cock up or requires an FAQ.

Well, if we're going to use AoS as a guide, looking through the AoS FAQ leads me to this entry:

"Q: Is it possible for modifiers to make a hit, wound or save roll automatically successful? For example, a save roll of 3 or more with a +2 modifier.

A: Yes. In this example, the save would be made automatically."

This suggests that you might apply modifiers in AoS before the roll, resulting in no longer needing to make the roll.

Still, the real FAQ question here is whether or not you can choose to just reroll some of your failed rolls, rather than having to roll all failed rolls or none. If so, then this is all moot.

EDIT: The core AoS rules do, in fact, state that re-rolls at done before modifiers are applied. Still, my question stands.

Rerolls almost universally say 'can' or 'may' reroll failed to hit rolls - so of course you can chose to not reroll.

I don't see how that's a factor though - in the example above, you can't reroll the 3 since according to your BS you score a hit.

Massaen wrote:

Rerolls almost universally say 'can' or 'may' reroll failed to hit rolls - so of course you can chose to not reroll.

I don't see how that's a factor though - in the example above, you can't reroll the 3 since according to your BS you score a hit.

Ah. You are correct. In that case, a FAQ question outlining this scenario and asking GW if this was their intent might still be in order.

Everything I have seen and read says its correct in the way I posted above. The play testers have said in numerous places this is correct.

This clause serves no purpose at all if you can modify the dice roll before rerolls. Its explicit in its wording.

Removing it entirely lets you modify then reroll but with it printed in black and white - I don't see how it can be part of an FAQ asking if that was the intent. Its one of those things where intent is shown by inclusion. Without it being in the book we get the opposite result.

Well, in some ways, I'm fine with it - it will make venoms and supersonic models possibly a little more resilient to attacks.

I just think that it's going to be a nightmare trying to explain this to the massive number of opponents who will inevitably not understand that it works this way, and the counter-intuitive nature of it would seem to slow the game slightly rather than speed it up.

Massaen wrote:

|Meavar wrote:

And of course remember which modifiers are a dice modifier
+1 or -1 to hit
And which modifiers change your stat (+1 ws).
Since I assume those are actually different now.

None that I have seen are modifiers to stats anymore - they all reference the dice roll. I could have missed one mind you. Given the caveat around rerolls before modifiers, I think its likely that all of them are now dice mods.

Our drugs have a bonus to ws (it actually mentions: i.e. WS 3+ becomes WS 2+)

|Meavar wrote:

Massaen wrote:

|Meavar wrote:

And of course remember which modifiers are a dice modifier
+1 or -1 to hit
And which modifiers change your stat (+1 ws).
Since I assume those are actually different now.

None that I have seen are modifiers to stats anymore - they all reference the dice roll. I could have missed one mind you. Given the caveat around rerolls before modifiers, I think its likely that all of them are now dice mods.

Our drugs have a bonus to ws (it actually mentions:  i.e. WS 3+ becomes WS 2+)

Good pick up - its actually +1WS. Not a +1 to hit as you might expect in the past

Its simple. Just role the die, reroll the ones that miss, then subtract 1 from them all. How is that confusing?
Edit: since it subtracts one from the role, I wonder if abilities that trigger on a 6 to hit can even trigger at all?

No they cant!

Intended?