Insufficient firepower?

Count Adhemar wrote:

It's not just tanks. GW has basically just given Rising Crescendo to every Renegade Space Marine for, erm...reasons! So now a Power Armoured Chaos Space Marine moves 6", advances D6" and charges 2D6" for an average move of 16.5", compared to our 7-8" move and 2d6" charge (14-15" average).

Plus warp time for an extra 6" move. There is a reason I do not consider DE to be a fast army this edition, and our lack of any tricks or force multipliers hurts bad.

But we are open topped. That's huge for us! I prefer my raider or a venom to a rhino.

CptMetal wrote:

But we are open topped. That's huge for us! I prefer my raider or a venom to a rhino.

Yeah. Open topped is awesome for shooting, no doubt.

We have, what, 2 units that can really take advantage of open topped this edition? Warriors, and Trueborn, maybe mandrakes but more likely they're deep striking. The rest of our infantry are melee, and get at best minor benefits from it if they have pistols or the like.

We are a melee army. Pretty sure we have less dedicated shooty units than the Orks or 'nids do.

CptMetal wrote:

But we are open topped. That's huge for us! I prefer my raider or a venom to a rhino.

Open topped lost pretty much every advantage that it used to have over other vehicles when 8e hit. Our infantry can fire out of them (but not overwatch). That's the only advantage they have now.

Apparently someone found a way to squeeze 28 attacks out of a chaos lord, at ST 7 AP -2 D 2.

That is more than a whole squad of wyches. Hell, it's practically a whole squad of bloodbrides! from one dude!

At double the s double the ap and double the wounds, can he reroll to wound as well?
And how many points is that?

|Meavar wrote:

At double the s double the ap and double the wounds, can he reroll to wound as well?
And how many points is that?

Not sure. Probably around the cost of a squad of bloodbrides. I know it involves a psychic power, being a slanneshi, and using the Hydra Blade.

Is that a flat 28 attacks? Or including a good d6 roll? I know with my gaming group they over amp stuff by quoting 12 shots rather than 2d6

It is a scary number of attacks though, especially from 6"+d6+2d6 movement

Let's see.
Base of 5 attacks I think (not certain). +1 A warlord. +2 S +1 A Diabolic ST. +1 S -2 AP 2 D +d3 A Hydra Blade. And a second Chainsword.

Steed of Slaanesh.
Herald of Slaanesh casting Hysterical Frenzy to attack twice.

It appears to include a good D3 roll for max attacks. so between 24 and 28 attacks.

Assuming I haven't missed anything and their math checks out. Am working on someone else's build with none of the relevant references so am trusting them blindly.

Quote: Want 28 attacks with your chaos lord? OK, here's how you do it, granted it takes a lot. First you get a chaos lord on steed of slaanesh with two chainswords for a total of 9 attacks, then add a casting of Diabolic Strength for 10 attacks, then take the intoxicating elixir relic for 11 attacks. After that take the EC war lord trait for up to +3 attacks for 14 total attacks. Then you have a herald of Slaanesh cast Hysterical Frenzy to attack twice for up to 28 attacks in the next battle round. anything you get from death to the false emperor is icing on the cake.
and have a sorcerer to cast diabolic strength and warptime
+ all the other relic combinations to give -ap and extra damage for relic weapons
You know what, I'm not done with the cheese yet. Bring a second Herald for the extra -1 to hit ALL THE TIME, even close combat. Stacks with your Alpha Legion trait for -2 to hit outside 12", which you should always be before combat because your Sorcerer can Warptime you 12" closer (isn't being cavalry fun?).
Works out to about 20-24 attacks with Blade of the Hydra instead, but hitting at Strength 8 with -2 AP and 2 dmg per wound. Herald buff aura helps too!

I mean, I can squeeze 14 attacks out of a STOCK World Eaters lord with a few command points and no gear beyond a chainsword.

Base 4. +1 Warlord. +1 Chainsword. +1 on charge World Eaters. x2 Fury of Korne.

Cost of 74 points.

Our 72 point succubus is nearly looking good in comparison with her 4 attacks and t3...
Jeah I somewhere have the feeling something is not really equal here...

Count Adhemar wrote:

It's not just tanks. GW has basically just given Rising Crescendo to every Renegade Space Marine for, erm...reasons! So now a Power Armoured Chaos Space Marine moves 6", advances D6" and charges 2D6" for an average move of 16.5", compared to our 7-8" move and 2d6" charge (14-15" average).

I've only played one game so far, so my opinion may well be skewed. However, one of the first things that occurred to me was how much of a pain it was to have to disembark assault units before moving their transports.

Obviously this was something I'd mentioned when theory-crafting, but it was interesting to see it play out on the tabletop as well. Compare that to say Orks, who (with a Warboss nearby) can advance and then still charge. Or the SMs you mentioned.

In effect, I was having to try and position my stuff a turn in advance, but they only way I could do so was to place it within the (longer) charge range of my opponent.

Long story short, I don't think I'll even bother with DE melee stuff again. Certainly not anything that needs a transport.

|Meavar wrote:

Our 72 point succubus is nearly looking good in comparison with her 4 attacks and t3...
Jeah I somewhere have the feeling something is not really equal here...

Well to be fair the Chaos Lord is burdened by also having to lug around a 3+/4++ save and 6" reroll 1's aura for shooting and melee.

Oh, and they have the terrible options of all power weapons, lightning claws, power fits, and combi-weapons for range.

Reminder: Power Fist = 12 points. Glaive = 10 points.

Really, we pay for the convenience of not being burdened with all these annoying choices and flexibility.

EDIT: Remember that with Drugs and Warlord Trait the Succubus can push it up to 6 attacks.

The Shredder wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

It's not just tanks. GW has basically just given Rising Crescendo to every Renegade Space Marine for, erm...reasons! So now a Power Armoured Chaos Space Marine moves 6", advances D6" and charges 2D6" for an average move of 16.5", compared to our 7-8" move and 2d6" charge (14-15" average).

I've only played one game so far, so my opinion may well be skewed. However, one of the first things that occurred to me was how much of a pain it was to have to disembark assault units before moving their transports.

Obviously this was something I'd mentioned when theory-crafting, but it was interesting to see it play out on the tabletop as well. Compare that to say Orks, who (with a Warboss nearby) can advance and then still charge. Or the SMs you mentioned.

In effect, I was having to try and position my stuff a turn in advance, but they only way I could do so was to place it within the (longer) charge range of my opponent.  

Long story short, I don't think I'll even bother with DE melee stuff again. Certainly not anything that needs a transport.

Well Reavers are fast enough to solve your problem. They just suck in melee for their points. Hellions might be fast enough to do the job too.

But yes, our melee and speed isn't our strong point. Pity they're the primary focus of our army.

FuelDrop wrote:

Well Reavers are fast enough to solve your problem. They just suck in melee for their points. Hellions might be fast enough to do the job too.

As you say, Reavers just don't do enough for their points. And Hellions seem woefully fragile for their cost.

I think perhaps I'll leave melee alone for the time being.

FuelDrop wrote:

But yes, our melee and speed isn't our strong point. Pity they're the primary focus of our army.

Quite. Amongst other things, it's rather irritating that PfP is basically limited to melee buffs.

The Shredder wrote:

Quite. Amongst other things, it's rather irritating that PfP is basically limited to melee buffs.

And, for maximum irony, it's not from pain!

Also, benefits that help infantry durability in the most mechanized army in the game, and leadership benefits in the late game when either we're in total control of the battle or have already lost.

|Meavar wrote:

Tau, 4+ normal guys, 3+ for suits is still close to power armour

Jeah the waiting time is much better, but it also means that in a year time I feel like I just wasted a 100 euro... Expecially since there is quite a power difference between the books and the index. If they would have made a free digital version I think that is ok. Now we wasted 100 euro for something that while getting us by for a year is UP compared to all the people who already have their book.

I don't know why your thinking that, the general consensus on the Space Marine codex was that it offered some interesting choices with relics, Warlord traits and strategems but on the whole wasn't particularly more powerful than the index. It's best units are still Guilliman and the Storm Raven which are unchanged between the two.

FuelDrop wrote:

And, for maximum irony, it's not from pain!

I've seen people more accurately labelling it 'Power from Patience'.

FuelDrop wrote:

Also, benefits that help infantry durability in the most mechanized army in the game, and leadership benefits in the late game when either we're in total control of the battle or have already lost.

The Dark Side must have the best cookies in the 40k universe.

Also, can I just say that 6+ FNP on an army of T3 dudes with crap armour is just as useless as I thought it would be.

@immateria
I might be wrong, I do not have the codexes. But from what I heard they got a few large boons.

Heroes with double the attacks for the same price as ours. (chaos)

Suddenly the whole army having very usefull special rules, hit and run, -1 to hit outside of 12 inch, run and charge, reroll one to hit and wound roll for each unit. It all seems quite powerfull as a freebee.
The extra stratagems and warlord traits are nice, but alone would not be so significant.
Imagen suddenly our complete army having a -1 to hit when outside of 12 inch, and tell me honestly that it would not make a difference... The advance and charge, gives them a bigger threat range than our supposedly fast melee units.

So, got some confirmation: Obliterators CAN get marked and thus use the double tap stratagem, giving them effectively 8 blaster shots each.

Also, World Eater Berserkers can make 4 attacks each on the charge stock and can fight twice before the enemy can strike back, then can spend some CP for a third round of attacks. So a squad of 10 for 160 points (chainswords) puts out 82 S5 attacks on the charge, and if that doesn't do the job they can get another 41 at the end of the fight.

For comparison, a squad of bloodbrides is putting out either 41 S 3 or 31 S 4 attacks for 130 points, assuming they are using one of the good drug options.

(Note: the beserkers also have higher toughness, and access to squad wide +1 S -1 AP weapons (at the cost of 1 attack each per fight phase, or alternatively they can trade their pistols) for 1 point each.)

So basically ... Unless the codex gives us some incredible tricks we are slowly sinking back down to where we were power wise as 7th Ed. The only thing I can say is that a 28 attack chaos Lord is pretty pricy in that it requires at least 3 models to pull it off ... Kill any one of those three and it's power is gimped pretty hard, and, depending on the model, crippling to the extent that would make our succubi laugh at them. But if left unchecked that kinda power is gonna run rampant ... And the answer is not "well if every army can do something like this than it isn't broken"

I agree the 28 attack chaos lord is not very representive.
But even if we take his support away he still laughs at our succubus

We have the same str, but they have a higher T same since we have the drugs
They can attack twice
We have a 4++ while they have a 3+ and 4++

Exept they attack twice, give a better buff to more of their units and have a better save, and more weapon options (although then their price increases as well so let's ignore that for now).

This lord can only attack twice due to command points. And sadly, we don't have any.

Well then that basically puts the succubus and chaos Lord on the same level :/ any weapon we use on the succubus would decrease that armor past 4+ so they would use the 4++ anyway ... Which the succubus has also but what the chaos Lord doesn't have (without being Nurgle but then they wouldn't be slanneshi so unable to do this) is a 6+++ that affects all damage done to the succubus so slightly more survivable (if only just) and either way (cause I'm sure the lords weapons give him a str bonus) we will be wounding each other on a 3+ cause Archglaive +2 str so honestly I would argue that taking the +1 attack drug would be better then the tough drug (depending on the Strength bonus on the lords weapons, if it's x(str) then it wouldn't matter what our toughness is as they would always be double our toughness) they have the same aura ability of reroll hit rolls of a 1 and as such are pretty even without support what so ever ... I would even dare say that because of the 6+++ the succubus is slightly better ... Then given the toughness drug the succubus is even better cause without any + to the lords str they wound on 4+ and the succubus wounds on a 3+