Pulse Disintegrators firepower

How shooty is our Tantalus?

How do its Pulse Disintegrators compare to other Dark Light Weaponry in our arsenal?

Is a Pulse Disintegrator more like a Weaker Dark Lance with higher rate of fire or more like a stronger Disintegrator Cannon with higher rate of fire?

What is its optimal target?

How does the firepower of a Tantalus compare to that of Ravagers?

Let's go over some stats:

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THE STATS:

A Pulse Disintegrator is a Range 36", Assault 6, Strength 8, Ap-3, D2 Weapon

for comparison the hull mounted Dark Lances and Disintegrator Cannons are:

Dark Lance: Range 36", Assault 1, Strength 8, Ap-4, D6 Weapon

Dissie: Range 36", Assault 3, Strength 5, Ap-3, D2 Weapon

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THE MATH:

Let's compare the damage output of a pulse disintegrator against various targets:

Medium Infantry (Primaris Intercessor):
T4 3+Sv 2Wound Target
Pulse Disintegrator: 6 shots *2/3 hitting *5/6 Wounding *5/6 Armour = 5.6 wounds = 2.8 kills
Disintegrator Cannon: 3 shots *2/3 hitting *2/3 Wounding *5/6 Armour = 2.2 wounds = 1.1 kills
Dark Lance: 1 shot *2/3 hitting *5/6 Wounding                                   = 1.9 wounds = 0.6 kills
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 2.5 Dissies ~ 4.7 Dark Lances

Heavy Infantry/Light Vehicles (Centurions
T5, 2+Sv, 4 Wounds
Pulse Disintegrator: 6 shots *2/3 hitting *2/3 Wounding *2/3 Armour = 3.6 wounds = 0.9 kills
Disintegrator Cannon: 3 shots *2/3 hitting *1/2 Wounding *2/3 Armour = 1.3 wounds = 0.3 kills
Dark Lance: 1 shot *2/3 hitting *5/6 Wounding                                   = 1.3 wounds = 0.3 kills
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 3 Dissies ~ 3 Dark Lances

Medium Vehicles (Rhino/Impulsor)
T7, 3+Sv, 10/11 Wounds Target
Pulse Disintegrator: 6 shots *2/3 hitting *2/3 Wounding *5/6 Armour = 4.4 wounds
Disintegrator Cannon: 3 shots *2/3 hitting *1/3 Wounding *5/6 Armour = 1.1 wounds
Dark Lance: 1 shot *2/3 hitting *2/3 Wounding                                     = 1.6 wounds
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 4 Dissies ~ 2.8 Dark Lances

Heavy Vehicles (Repulsor/Leman Russ)
T8, 3+Sv, 16/12 Wounds Target
Pulse Disintegrator: 6 shots *2/3 hitting *1/2 Wounding *5/6 Armour = 3.3 wounds
Disintegrator Cannon: 3 shots *2/3 hitting *1/3 Wounding *5/6 Armour = 1.1 wounds
Dark Lance: 1 shot *2/3 hitting *1/2 Wounding                                     = 1.2 wounds
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 3 Dissies ~ 2.8 Dark Lances
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DATA ANALYSIS:

When shooting the pulse Disintegrator indiscriminately (across the range of targets) its firepower is equivalent to 3.1 Disintegrator Cannons and 3.3 Dark Lances
This puts the fire power of one Tantalus ~ equivalent to that of 2 Ravagers

When shooting at the best target for Dissies (medium infantry)
it is equivalent to 2.5 Dissies
This puts the fire power of one Tantalus equivalent to that of 1.7 Dissie Ravagers

When shooting at the best target for Dark Lances (Medium Vehicles)
it is equivalent to 2.8 Dark Lances
This puts the fire power of one Tantalus equivalent to that of 1.9 Dark Lance Ravagers

When shooting at the average target for Dark Lances and Dissies (Light Vehicles/Heavy Infantry)
it is equivalent to 3 Dark Lances or 3 Disintegrator Cannons
This puts the fire power of one Tantalus equivalent to that of 2 Ravagers
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CONCLUSIONS:

As a rule of thumb you can consider a pulse disintegrator equivalent to 3 Disintegrator cannons or 3 Dark Lances and thus the firepower of a tantalus to that of 2 Ravagers.

More specifically:

Medium Infantry is best targeted by Disintegrator Cannons
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 2.5 Disintegrators

Medium and Heavy Vehicles are best targeted by Dark Lances
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 2.8 Dark Lances

Heavy Infantry and Light Vehicles are best targeted by Pulse Disintegrators
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 3 Dark Lances/Disintegrators

Given the above pulse disintegrators behave more akin to Dark Lances than Disintegrator Cannons.
(Yet retain a measure of efficiency against infantry)

If I were to play a Tantalus I would thus count its pulse disintegrators against my Dark Lance allowance rather than my disintegrator cannons count.

Furthermore I would target it against heavy infantry/light vehicles as other targets are better served by Dark Lances or Disintegrator Cannons.

I mean, this sort of sums up why you don't see the Tantalus in too many lists. Its offensive power is about equal to two Ravagers, its defensive power is roughly equal to two as well (slightly higher T and save, but fewer wounds) - yet it costs over three times the price in points and real world money. Being a transport might make it slightly more valuable to you, but it really is kind of a death trap considering that carrying other units just increases its priority as a target and we don't have any way to prevent models risking dying when their transports do.

It's a gorgeous model but its utility on the tabletop is pretty limited, unfortunately.

It's our best character sniper, though

That's a lot of pts to spend just on a character sniper. Plus, in order to unlock that one stratagem you have to take dark creed, which is not great for any other coven unit you'd want to take in that detachment. Far too high a cost for me to consider taking it just as a character sniper.

Burnage wrote:

I mean, this sort of sums up why you don't see the Tantalus in too many lists. Its offensive power is about equal to two Ravagers, its defensive power is roughly equal to two as well (slightly higher T and save, but fewer wounds) - yet it costs over three times the price in points and real world money. Being a transport might make it slightly more valuable to you, but it really is kind of a death trap considering that carrying other units just increases its priority as a target and we don't have any way to prevent models risking dying when their transports do.

It's a gorgeous model but its utility on the tabletop is pretty limited, unfortunately.

Pre codex I would justify taking the tantalus as I wouldn't need to take 3 venoms to transport my dudes, but soon as the codex dropped and they upped the tantalus pts I've struggled to take it

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

That's a lot of pts to spend just on a character sniper. Plus, in order to unlock that one stratagem you have to take dark creed, which is not great for any other coven unit you'd want to take in that detachment. Far too high a cost for me to consider taking it just as a character sniper.

Just pay 1CP to take the tantalus alone. You won't have obsession on it, but who cares. You only want the stratagem.

I suppose you can do that, but do I really want to pay 400pts and that cp, on top of 2 cp every time I want to snipe a character? Not really, it's a really expensive pts/cp build for a niche ability.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

I suppose you can do that, but do I really want to pay 400pts and that cp, on top of 2 cp every time I want to snipe a character? Not really, it's a really expensive pts/cp build for a niche ability.

Even without character to snipe, it's still 2 ravager worth of fire

dumpeal wrote:

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

I suppose you can do that, but do I really want to pay 400pts and that cp, on top of 2 cp every time I want to snipe a character? Not really, it's a really expensive pts/cp build for a niche ability.

Even without character to snipe, it's still 2 ravager worth of fire

But you'll be missing the Kabal buffs, which are a substantial component of the Ravagers' strength. The Esoteric Kill usage is interesting and sure to piss off an unsuspecting opponent, but it requires a lot of investment and doesn't get you that much in return.

About the only reason to take it is the rule of three. It effectively gives us an extra source of ravager-style firepower. Still too expensive though.

If I was to take it, I would use it as a cult of strife

I agree with the calculations where 2 Ravagers pump out about the same amount of firepower as 1 Tantalus, and for less points. But you're forgetting some things. If you have 2 Ravagers and you lose 10 wounds, you have only one Ravager, and thus only half of the firepower left.
If you have a Tantalus and you lose 10 wounds, your BS will go from 3+ to 4+, but you still get the same amount of shots.
And I need transports anyway, so I think that you should add the price of a Raider to those 2 Ravagers if you want to compare the points in a fair way.
Also, with the ridiculous Aethersails rule that allows 32" movement, your threat range is basically the entire table.
I don't have a Tantalus yet, but I do think it's worth the points. Also because it's a giant distraction for my opponent, meaning the rest of my army will get some time not getting shot at.

Gelmir wrote:

I agree with the calculations where 2 Ravagers pump out about the same amount of firepower as 1 Tantalus, and for less points. But you're forgetting some things. If you have 2 Ravagers and you lose 10 wounds, you have only one Ravager, and thus only half of the firepower left.
If you have a Tantalus and you lose 10 wounds, your BS will go from 3+ to 4+, but you still get the same amount of shots.
And I need transports anyway, so I think that you should add the price of a Raider to those 2 Ravagers if you want to compare the points in a fair way.
Also, with the ridiculous Aethersails rule that allows 32" movement, your threat range is basically the entire table.
I don't have a Tantalus yet, but I do think it's worth the points. Also because it's a giant distraction for my opponent, meaning the rest of my army will get some time not getting shot at.

Well 2 Ravagers is also only 250pts, a 3rd is now MORE damage and another Vehicle with 10 more wounds and still only 375pts so you still save 25pts.


Or if you want transports and still more damage, just take 5 Raiders (400pts), 5 Raiders is 5 Dis Cannons and 50 transport slots with 50 wounds.


The Tantalus is never worth it outside of 2k point Highlander games (b.c you can only have 1 of each transport).

The Tantalus is definitely overcosted, 400 points is firmly Knight territory and the Tantalus absolutely doesn't bring as much firepower or durability to the table as an equivalently pointed Knight.

With this new obsessions, the Tantalus is now competitive in my opinion. Dark Tecnomancers and Artists of the Flesh both makes it way better than a single Knight.
And it is way more tactic. It's impossible to compare with Raiders or Ravagers, it works and play different than any other chioce in the codex.

You cant have Dark Tecnomancers and Artists of the Flesh together, you can not have any other obsessions with Artists of Flesh. And if you are doing Artists of the Flesh, its going to be in its own detachment for sure (or maybe in a heavy detachment with some Talos)

And you can also have Dark Tecnomancers with 5 Raiders doing more than double what a tantalus can do. But its also 50 total wounds compare to 18, and they are different targets so you have the damge spread out. The tantalus isnt strong enough for 400pts. It

If you really want to make it fully worth it, take Dark Tecnomancers and Obsessive Collector, shoot heavy targets and melee soft ones to keep you wounds up, killing 3 models gives you back 3D3 wounds, 5 models is 5D3 wounds, well.... if you are not 1 shot off the table.

I know that they can't being together...I was just saying that those 2 Obsession are what they make shine the Tantalus.
And no, you can't take 5 Raiders instead of it. They are completely different from them selves, they play different, they bring different values on the list, two different purpose etc. It's like compare 3 Ravagers and 3 VoidRavens.
Just a tip: Screaming Jets.



And for the Artists, I don't get why. Artists is an amazing obsession, and if you playing on it you're bring more stuff with it. So you can fit the Tantalus inside with no issue, no need to bring 1 single detatchment just for it.


Anyway I'll repeat: math is a good tool, but don't play just on it. Consider the footprint, the cost for taking in on deepstrike, the cost in list as slots (5 Raiders mean 5 units, 1 Tantalus mean 1 Tantalus), the heavy in matter.of magnet fire that the Tantalus can bring, the advance value, the mortal wounds on charge (which are amazing), the ability of soaking overwatch, the carrying-fly infantries value etc etc.


Seriusly, the fire power of the Tantalus is the last thing to value when you bring it study that boat again guys, it is good now!

i have to agree with the majority it isnt worth it at its current price...
The new obsessions make it a bit more tempting compared to before and with dark technomancers it will kill almost anything it targets BUT it is a big target and dies like a fly if focused down (keep in mind it cannot be protected by lightning fast reactions if you go coven). You loose almost 1/4 of your army when it dies and the 400 points can easily be spent in more important stuff...
Having said that, the model is gorgeous, the most beautiful piece our army has to offer and it can be fun in some friendly games.

Cerve wrote:

I know that they can't being together...I was just saying that those 2 Obsession are what they make shine the Tantalus.
And no, you can't take 5 Raiders instead of it. They are completely different from them selves, they play different, they bring different values on the list, two different purpose etc. It's like compare 3 Ravagers and 3 VoidRavens.
Just a tip: Screaming Jets.



And for the Artists, I don't get why. Artists is an amazing obsession, and if you playing on it you're bring more stuff with it. So you can fit the Tantalus inside with no issue, no need to bring 1 single detatchment just for it.


Anyway I'll repeat: math is a good tool, but don't play just on it. Consider the footprint, the cost for taking in on deepstrike, the cost in list as slots (5 Raiders mean 5 units, 1 Tantalus mean 1 Tantalus), the heavy in matter.of magnet fire that the Tantalus can bring, the advance value, the mortal wounds on charge (which are amazing), the ability of soaking overwatch, the carrying-fly infantries value etc etc.


Seriusly, the fire power of the Tantalus is the last thing to value when you bring it study that boat again guys, it is good now!

5 Raiders vs 1 Tantalus isnt about the play style, its about the value. And the Tantalus doesn't give you more value like you think. Thats still only 18 wounds and 2 high powered guns, they still shoot at it and when it dies thats 400pts thats gone. If each enemy unit/Gun is doing 6 damage on average (after saves), that means it will take 3 units/guns to kill 1 tantalus, but that same 3 will only kill 1.5 (well 1.6) Raider b.c 2D is gone and the other 6 damage just hurt the 2nd raider.


Yes it is only 1 unit meaning it can only help 1 spot, i cant control the board as well, and yes the footprint is smaller than 5 raiders. Also if 2 Raiders dies (Equal to 1 tantalus in wounds) you still have 3 raiders left to go do something. In general Toughness is almost meaningless anymore, heck i took down a stompa with some venoms and 3 raiders turn 1. At this point in the game if you can live past turn 1 on average with a super unit like a Knight/Stompa/Tantalus, then you need to spam MSU and let them over kill your units and waste damage.

Believe me i would love the tantalus to be completely viable, i spent 15hrs on mine and a lot of money, i have tried to make it work, but it just wont unless you are against someone that under estimates it.

It really just needs to be less pts. There's absolutely no reason why it should cost as much as a knight.

@Amishprn86: I have a different view on it, I can't find 5 Raiders always better than it. I have it, I know how it works, I'm fine with it now. I'm not saying it's amazing, but it's definitely good in the right list. That's it, my 2 cents

Cerve wrote:

@Amishprn86: I have a different view on it, I can't find 5 Raiders always better than it. I have it, I know how it works, I'm fine with it now. I'm not saying it's amazing, but it's definitely good in the right list. That's it, my 2 cents

The point of this thread is Mathhammer, not "I use it alot so i play it better" We are not talking about player skill or player error, we are talking about hard numbers.

Purely looking at it with math, 5 Raiders is just better than 1 Tantalus, especially with the new obsessions that Dis Cannons can now have +1 to wounds and Damage. Not just from an offensive but also from a defensive stand point.

The point of this thread is not whether the Tantalus is worth it or not.

I am merely presenting a mathematical analysis of its firepower so those who want to play it can make the best targeting decisions and how to complement its firepower with other darklight weapons.

I will update my analysis to take Dark Technomancers into account next.

With the advent of Dark Technomancers, I am updating the analysis to account for a coven tantalus increased fire output

I will compare pulse disintegrators with Dark Lances and Disintegrator Cannons assuming all mounted on technomancer vehicles

Let's go over some stats:

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THE STATS:

A Pulse Disintegrator is a Range 36", Assault 6, Strength 8, Ap-3, D2 Weapon

for comparison the hull mounted Dark Lances and Disintegrator Cannons are:

Dark Lance: Range 36", Assault 1, Strength 8, Ap-4, D6 Weapon

Dissie: Range 36", Assault 3, Strength 5, Ap-3, D2 Weapon

Dark Technomancers: +1 to wound, +1Damage

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THE MATH: (For this comparison all weapons are considered mounted on technomancers vehicles

Let's compare the damage output of a pulse disintegrator against various targets:

Medium Infantry (Primaris Intercessor):
T4 3+Sv 2Wound Target
Pulse Disintegrator: 6 shots *2/3 hitting *5/6 Wounding *5/6 Armour = 8.33 wounds = 2.8 kills
Disintegrator Cannon: 3 shots *2/3 hitting *5/6 Wounding *5/6 Armour = 4.16 wounds = 1.4 kills
Dark Lance: 1 shot *2/3 hitting *5/6 Wounding                                   = 2.5 wounds = 0.6 kills
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 2 Dissies ~ 4.7 Dark Lances

Heavy Infantry/Light Vehicles (Centurions
T5, 2+Sv, 4 Wounds
Pulse Disintegrator: 6 shots *2/3 hitting *5/6 Wounding *2/3 Armour = 6.6 wounds = 1.2 kills
Disintegrator Cannon: 3 shots *2/3 hitting *2/3 Wounding *2/3 Armour = 2.66 wounds = 0.7 kills
Dark Lance: 1 shot *2/3 hitting *2/3 Wounding                                   = 2 wounds = 0.5 kills
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 1.7 Dissies ~ 2 Dark Lances

Medium Vehicles (Rhino/Impulsor)
T7, 3+Sv, 10/11 Wounds Target
Pulse Disintegrator: 6 shots *2/3 hitting *5/6 Wounding *5/6 Armour = 8.3 wounds
Disintegrator Cannon: 3 shots *2/3 hitting *1/2 Wounding *5/6 Armour = 2.5 wounds
Dark Lance: 1 shot *2/3 hitting *5/6 Wounding                                     = 2.5 wounds
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 3.3 Dissies ~ 3.3 Dark Lances

Heavy Vehicles (Repulsor/Leman Russ)
T8, 3+Sv, 16/12 Wounds Target
Pulse Disintegrator: 6 shots *2/3 hitting *2/3 Wounding *5/6 Armour = 6.7 wounds
Disintegrator Cannon: 3 shots *2/3 hitting *1/2 Wounding *5/6 Armour = 2.5 wounds
Dark Lance: 1 shot *2/3 hitting *2/3 Wounding                                     = 2 wounds
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 2.7 Dissies ~ 3.35 Dark Lances

Against T8 3+ 5++ 12 Wounds Target
Pulse Disintegrator: 6 shots *2/3 hitting *2/3 Wounding *2/3 Armour = 5.33 wounds
Disintegrator Cannon: 3 shots *2/3 hitting *1/2 Wounding *2/3 Armour = 2 wounds
Dark Lance: 1 shot *2/3 hitting *2/3 Wounding *2/3 Armour = 1.33 wounds
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 2.7 Dissies ~ 4 Dark Lances
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DATA ANALYSIS:

When shooting the pulse Disintegrator indiscriminately (across the range of targets) its firepower is equivalent to 2.4 Disintegrator Cannons and 3.3 Dark Lances
This puts the fire power of one Tantalus ~ equivalent to that of 4.7 Dissie Raiders or 6.6 Dark Lance Raiders

When shooting at the best target for Dissies (medium infantry)
it is equivalent to 2 Dissies
This puts the fire power of one Tantalus equivalent to that of 2 Dissie Raiders

When shooting at the worst target for Dissies (Medium Vehicles)
it is equivalent to 3.3 Dark Lances (and 3.3 Dissies)
This puts the fire power of one Tantalus equivalent to that of 6.6 Raiders (Dissie and Lance variants alike)

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CONCLUSIONS:

As a rule of thumb you can consider a technomancer pulse disintegrator equivalent to 3 Disintegrator cannons when shooting at medium and heavy vehicles
or 2 Disintegrator cannons when shooting at medium and heavy infantry.

More specifically

Medium Infantry is best targeted by Disintegrator Cannons
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 2 Disintegrators

Heavy Infantry and Light Vehicles are best targeted by Disintegrator Cannons
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 1.7 Disintegrators ~ 2 Dark Lances

Medium Vehicles are best targeted by Pulse Disintegrators
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 3.3 Dark Lances/Disintegrator Cannons

Heavy Vehicles are best targeted by Pulse Disintegrators
1 pulse disintegrator ~ 2.7 Disintegrator Cannons

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DIFFERENCES WITH PREVIOUS ANALYSIS:

With Dark Technomancers, Disintegrator Cannons are always better or equal to Dark Lances across all targets.
hence, pulse disintegrators can only be compared to disintegrator cannons

Pulse Disintegrators give their best when targeting Medium and Heavy Vehicles compared to Disintegrator Cannons

Outside of Technomancer, the best performance of Pulse Disintegrators is against Heavy Infantry and light vehicles (compared to Dark Lances and Disintegrator Cannons

Also remember most important vehicle units that you shoot at are now 5++ at least even Tyranids are getting a flat out 5++ across the board (it is needed for them, otherwise their MC are crap).