DE Codex Wishlisting

But I was trying to suggest what is the difference between a rank and file wych and bloodbrides.
Your basic wych while nasty compared to other races would be your regular troops
BloodBrides on the other hand have the experience needed to be aware of their surroundings enough to be able to dodge an incoming bullet or beam blast etc. They are the true performers of the arena and from a performance standpoint need to be better then the wyches so that they stand out. So with that in mind and the way that GW setup the wyches

wyches dodge +4 in melee combat as normal
bloodbrides "master" dodge +4 in melee combat as normal but also against pistols fired in combat
succubus lighting dodge +4 invulnerable save
Lelith Hesperax quick silver dodge =3+ invulnerable save

During a charge if your Hekatrix has a phantasm grenade launcher then it would allow you to roll your dodge save during the over-watch phase. (maybe allow the regular wyches to get an invulnerable save against pistols once in CC but that would have to be play tested)

I rather they have a 5++ at all times unless against CC, then its a 4++

What I did in my homebrew codex back in 7th was give wyches a 6++ against shooting attacks, and Bloodbrides got a 5++. Both still had 4++ in melee

I also let Bloodbrides take as many weapons as they want, provided you were willing to pay for them.

Re-imagining of the Court of the Archon. The sslyth is already a perfect representation of a bodyguard. But the rest are all combat oriented as well. They should all bring something different to the table. Maybe the medusae causes paralysis (target unit may not overwatch this turn) and d3 mortal wounds (our version of smite). The urghul could be th main offense with rend and tons of attacks. The lhamean could bring a buff aura, like while she is alive, the archons melee attacks gain poison 2+.

With the bodyguard, horde killer, disabler, and support, the Archon would be able to be a solid choice on the field. One venom with a full court could get things done.

I would LOVE to play the Sslyth, they are to costly and the body guard rule makes their T5 worthless.

Please add that into the letter (idr if its in the letter), but they need to take the hit on the T5 and not Archons T3......

30pts and take hits on T5, BOOM i'll take 4 every game.

Agreed about taking the hit over the wound. And needs to be cheaper.

Edit... what about a 3+ armor save as well for scale skin?

Prepare yourself for text. I was brought to this forum by a reference to the GW letter on reddit. I had already written this up. Now I'll share it. Muahahaha.

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Before you read

Everybody should have watched the Dark Eldar round table from about 6 years ago. I can't link it but it can be easily found by searching for it on youtube.

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Thematic re-balancing of the Drukhari army

The view of the Drukhari I get from that amazing look at the race is that of a bunch of stuck up, full of themselves noble hedonists who want to live forever, aren't afraid of dying a few times in the process, and feed on thrill and excess. I love it. I want the army to embrace it. This discussion I'm presenting is about thematically encapsulating this idea. It is not going to be about mechanics. Everybody knows the idea of Drukhari as a glass hammer. It fits. I'm going to try to explain why this is and also present how I believe it can be implemented. Importantly, implemented without any new models or significant changes to representation.

I am going to break this into three parts of concept and then go over some units I have ideas for how to implement. Split into three sections. The Glass. The Hammer. The Art. But first...

TL;DR

Drukhari need to be more front loaded. Band-aids like the ubiquitous 5++ invulnerable save need to go away. Damage output needs a serious increase. Tactical options require a rework to put units out of harm's way just long enough to be useful. Every unit should embrace excess.

The Glass

Since it is so ingrained within the rule set, resilience of models is focused upon heavily. By resilience I'm talking about the ability to take a hit. Toughness, Armour Saves, Invulnerable Saves, and Power From Pain all fall under Resilience for this discussion. For the most part a Drukhari unit should make all of these tertiary concerns.

When a Drukhari gets hit, being very likely to crumble is actually a great thematic thing. If a Drukhari vehicle is destroyed, why do they care? They have bazillions of slaves back home making a ton more. They make more than the Drukhari can ever use. Only the best are good enough for a suicidal charge into the guns of the enemy! If a Drukhari dies, why do they care? A Haemonculi is likely to bring that guy back. If a Wrack or Grotesque is splatted, well... were they even people? Whatever. Instead of resilience, Drukhari should have two methods of avoidance to protect themselves. Tactical and Skillful.

Kabalites use the tactical methods. These involve various types of reserves, flanking maneuvers, deep strikes, webway portals, etc. Simply not being there needs no explanation as to how it helps a unit survive a little longer. The use of technological synergy along with speed should be critical. Night Shields have a great thematic potential as a tactical oriented technology. Instead of an invulnerable save, if they gave a penalty to hit that increases with range it introduces a variable both players can manipulate using mobility. It involves player skill, with a little buff from speed for the Drukhari. Look, useful speed stats! That's just an example though. There is no need for saves of any kind. In fact, that just makes more dice rolling. That makes the game take longer. No need for that. Importantly, with good design, the ability to take To-Hit rolls up to an impossible 7+ at range is completely OK. Partly because of how Kabalite hammers should work. More on that later.

Wych Cults use skillful avoidance. This involves outplaying the enemy in direct confrontation. The wych dodge save has always been a poor representation of this. Way back in the old days wych weapons reduced the enemy's number of attacks and weapon skill. Now that's the stuff I want to see again! Circumstantial penalties to hit, like only in melee for wyches, work wonders. Reducing number of attacks coming at them is also great. Forcing an upper limit of how easy they are to hit, like capping WS against them at 4+, can be good. And none of these require more rolling. In fact, they reduce rolling! No Escape should for certain reduce it's rolling. How about no rolling? That would make wych circumstantial avoidance abilities useful.

There is always an exception. In this case it's the Covens. They're all about resilience. For a couple of fluff reasons. You can't expect a biological servitor to be very smart or skillful. And Haemonculi take pride in how well they build their creations. Their art is biological. This means armour saves should still not be a concern. That's metal, not flesh. Similarly technological based protection like fields should not be a concern. No armour or invulnerable saves for Covens. An ability like Nurgle's Disgustingly Resilient combined with high toughness is much more fluffy. They're also slow shambling zombies.

Drukhari transports need some special TLC. In all cases their role is to get their cargo safely to it's destination before basically falling apart at a glance. The Kabals are generally in charge of the manufacturing. Deployment and tech like Kabalites work great here. Another way to help longevity is sort of counter-intuitive. That is to charge your paper airplane transports face first into the enemy. If that heavy shooty unit is falling back, you're safe from it's guns. More on this in The Hammer.

Incubi are a thing unto themselves, so they're probably good doing what they do.

The Hammer

Everything method in The Glass is a secondary concern. The primary way for a Drukhari to avoid harm is to kill the enemy first. In flamboyant and excessive manner. Up close and personal. Because what's the point if they can't see how awesome you are?

Kabalites make sure they can see the whites of their opponent's eyes before they envelope everything in front of them with a torrent of fire. Mid-range weaponry with a lot of shots and a lot of power is the way to go. Mobility needs to be accounted for as well. Kabalites need Assault weaponry. The splinter rifle is a thing of a bygone era. Shardcarbines are the new black. Replace every splinter rifle with a shardcarbine. In fact, just change the splinter rifle stats to that of a shardcarbine and remove the 'shardcarbine' from the game. Blasters, Shredders, Haywire Blasters, and Heat Lances fit in perfectly. Splinter cannons can if they change back to Assault weapons and to a ton of short range splinter dakka. Dark Lances and other heavy weapons in a Drukhari's hands should be a rare thing. They're heavy. I'm not carrying it. You carry it! This plays in with the tactical avoidance from The Glass. If a kabalite needs to get within short range to hit you it should be then possible to maneuver to negate things like range banded night shields and reserve deployment when retaliating. Hit hard, then get hit hard in return. Gun platform vehicles are an exception. Paper thin armour with long range firepower and every targeting baffle possible is where it's at.

Wych cults want to play with their food. And they want to see their prey realize that's what is happening. Zooming around the enemy in confusing blurs, dance fighting around them just out of reach, and striking when the enemy is too bewildered to defend. High weapon skill, the ability to be in the best spot to strike, lots of attacks, poison weapons (witch elves get them), and combat enhancing drugs. That can be a good offensive package. Even when shooting, the Wych Cults should be right in their enemy's faces. And often only as a precursor to hitting them with sharp poisoned things.

Covens use brute force. High strength. High penetration. Low skill. They lumber in, hit with the big weapons, and then repeat. No-skill guns like liquefiers are ideal. They're simple constructs, so these are simple tactics.

Some more transport TLC. Each faction plays in a slightly different manner. Each has a potential way for their transports to assist. Kabalites can use upgrades like splinter racks to good effect. Wyches could benefit from their transport charging itself into the fray with them, doing chariot-like damage with the shock prow in the process, and allowing the wyches to consolidate out of it into combat. Covens can use psychological warfare like grisly trophies. It would be neat to see each faction automatically give a faction unique ability/upgrade to the transport.

The Art

Drukhari are ancient, they seek perfection, and they are prideful to a fault. In war the three factions have different art techniques. Kabals have the art of strategy and tactics. They want the perfectly executed plan. They want to defeat the enemy without a shot. And then they want to shoot them! Wych cults are all about the art of personal skill. Their very being is art. A coven's constructs are it's art on display. They hope their enemy gets a good look!

It's important that every unit has it's own specialized art form. A parallel to the Asuryani's paths. Something unique that can be pointed to that says no other unit in this army can do this thing. Trueborn and Bloodbrides are the antithesis to this idea the way they are now.

I have some examples as to what I mean for a unit's art form. That brings us to the last section.


The elite divide, or lack thereof

Trueborn are big boy warriors.
Bloodbrides are big girl wyches.
Grotesques are big … thing... wracks.

Of those, only Grotesques do it right. They're significantly different while keeping the same theme. The art of a wrack is to torment and be tormented. Sinister tools and psychological warfare. The art of a Grotesque is brutality. Sheer gore and violence to excess. They don't block a shot. They take it. They bleed. They keep going through the pain and return the favor. A neat thing for Grotesques would be like that story about the T'au who get the Drukhari's assistance and have to give up some of their people in turn. Then the Drukhari help again by sending Grotesques made out of the T'au that were given, much to the T'au's displeasure. What if the units Grotesques are locked in combat with see that Grotesques are made of their people?

Trueborn try to be better warriors. They fail miserably. The best they can do is get a few more special weapons. And you pay a price for that privilege. Not for the weapons themselves. Just the privilege of maybe buying them. Or not. The extra attacks that are the only Trueborn model's buff is not to theme. Fix it! Astra Militarum veterans pay extra to get extra BS. Vanguard Veterans pay extra to get extra attacks as a melee unit, so it's in-theme. Sternguard veterans get unique improved weaponry. The stormtrooper treatment could work for Trueborn. Ghostplate armour and an upgraded gun. Solved.

The only thing bloodbrides improve upon over wyches is the feeling that you'd really just be better off taking Harlequins. If the previously described skillful avoidance is used then bloodbrides can act as the hammer to the wyches anvil. Significant weapon upgrades to hit hard on top of their defenses. Instead of tying up a more expensive unit for a while like wyches, the bloodbrides rapidly chew through the 'lesser' warriors of the enemy. They're all lesser by the way. Obviously.

Reavers vs Hellions

The potential for overlap needs addressed. Both being wych cult units with high mobility means it can be hard making them unique. The solution is to change the fundamental nature of Reavers to be super close range dakka. Bring back the damage when passing over an enemy. Keep the bladevanes as a secondary thing because fluff, but fewer attacks is fine. Tailor the avoidance strategies of both to ranged circumstances. They flit about too quickly to get a shot off giving penalties to shoot at them. Based on speed would be cool but that requires tracking that over time which is difficult. Once in combat their bulky modes of transport make it difficult to both flit about and engage the enemy at the same time. Reavers get lots and lots of very close range dakka with the targeting penalties ebbing off at close range. Hellions can be fixed very well with more melee damage output and penalties to shoot them.

Incubi, Scourges, and Mandrakes

No thematic changes needed. These guys all have great niches and fit nicely into the Drukhari ideals I enjoy. Mechanics/price tweaks sure. Probably. Maybe. Whatever.

Talos and Cronos

Both of these should start sitting in the open field. Lumber to the enemy. Attack. Be big and scary. It's probably inevitable that Talos would be very similar to either Carnifexes or Wraithlords. With closer ranged weaponry. And that's OK. Cronos were great when they used to buff units around them. Buff monsters. Are there even any such things in the game outside of HQ right now? Neat. Or debuffs. Or both.

Hqs

These are all thematically sound. Yes, they're weak for the most part. Again. Maths. Mechanics. Whatever.

And Finally

Why are Lhameans so bad?! Who looked at those and thought they'd be good to include?! Seriously...

I like this guy. ↑

While he has a point, from his description it feels to much like it is going to be a first turn gamble.

If the enemy can hit reasonably hard and is reasonably fast: The person who get's first turn wins.
Is the enemy very though but less damage, the dark eldar won't be able to kill or be killed in 1 turn so it does not feel like a glas hammer anymore but it works better.

I like the place were we are now, we are squishy (losing some thoughness and armour save compared to similarly priced units) and we hit reasonably hard and are a bit faster when looking at the army as a whole then most others. To me we still feel glass hammery, where tactics matter, but without an instant win/loss depending on who get's the first turn. If we start to deal more damage and get less defenses it will very fast go back to the "who can get the first turn wins" which we saw a lot at one point in 7th edition when tau and eldar where top tier.

Good read I enjoyed that. Makes me love DE even more!

The main complaint that I have at the mo is that we seem pretty good at taking out armour, but we are rubbish at stopping infantry, while the theme of our raids is to capture people/infantry.

So we need help against infantry ASAP.

Sadly with the nature of 40k now, there is already to much alpha strike, and DE already being very good at that. I dont want a turn 1 win or lose game, thats why i went full Harlequins b.c it isnt a turn 1 win/lose game like my DE. They are IMO very balanced and all my games are fun.

I agree with MANY of your points, but more Glass and Hammer to me is just more "I go 1st i win, i go 2nd i lose" and i dont want that.

I don't think so, amishprn.
It doesn't have to be to the furthest extremes to convey the glass hammer concept. I've mentioned in a couple of posts since just before 8th was announced that I'd want this very same thing.
There are other games and factions in those games that can do exactly this. Legion of Everblight and Cryx over at Warmachine land. Neverborn in Malifaux. Hell Dorado and Infinity have it.
We have the epitome of fast striking glass cannons that are not "Blistering fast" (Fake News!), strike more like a jeweler's hammer than a sledge, but have way more resilience than ever! Well, more hit points for boats still made of cardboard and duct tape.

nerdelemental wrote:

I don't think so, amishprn.
It doesn't have to be to the furthest extremes to convey the glass hammer concept. I've mentioned in a couple of posts since just before 8th was announced that I'd want this very same thing.
There are other games and factions in those games that can do exactly this. Legion of Everblight and Cryx over at Warmachine land. Neverborn in Malifaux. Hell Dorado and Infinity have it.
We have the epitome of fast striking glass cannons that are not "Blistering fast" (Fake News!), strike more like a jeweler's hammer than a sledge, but have way more resilience than ever! Well, more hit points for boats still made of cardboard and duct tape.

Currently when i play DE right now, the game is basically decided by turn 2, i mean there are run away tactics in maelstrom time to time to get extra objectives, but mostly its by turn 2 we know the winner.

Just from my experience, if we became more glass and hammer it would just make it even more so.

I already eitehr kill 2-3 Landraiders/Storm Raven or 4+ Rhinos/Razorbacks in 1-2 turns, or i get my 2-3 Ravagers and a Flier or 2 killed turns 1-2.

Im already done with DE again due to lack or viable units and over kill from each way, i dont want more of that. At least with quins no one gets 1/3 of the army killed turn 1 and its more of a game of skill than mass hits with mass damage on turn 1, and the game continues for 4-5 turns every time.

PS: Your local might be different, but i either win big or lose big.

So, alpha strike is a no, yet people complain about power from patience. I'm getting some conflicting messages.

If I could choose I'd lean toward getting more glassy and hammery. That is what draw me to DE I the first place.

Logan Frost wrote:

So, alpha strike is a no, yet people complain about power from patience. I'm getting some conflicting messages.

If I could choose I'd lean toward getting more glassy and hammery. That is what draw me to DE I the first place.

We are glass now tho, i'm not saying dont make use glass, i'm saying if you gave use more power and took away our 5++ and maybe the -1 to hit from venoms then we will either die to fast or kill to fast to make games "fun".

I take Ravagers b.c they are long range hammers, they never survive as long as my voidweavers for sure, but i want ravagers over voidweavers b.c of the damage.

To me the Ravager is a perfect example of Glass Hammer.

Not saying others are wrong, this is just my opinion and everyone will see it a bit differently. Just for me, DE is already glass enough.

Don't get me wrong, I like how we play right now, for the first time in 3 editions I feel like I'm playing a balanced army, at least for the indexes.
What I'm saying is that if the things were a bit more extreme it could be fun (to me), it would take a little more tactic to keep alive during the game, or gamble an all out attack.

The problem with the glass hammer mentality is that there will always be an army that is faster or more damaging. Balancing a glass hammer army is an extremely difficult task that is very meta dependant and you can screw the balance in one side's favour far too easily.

I think the best way DE can be designed are in a high risk/high reward fashion with anti-meta units.
For my custom 7th edition codex I gave Ravagers a piece of wargear that made Lances Rapid Fire weapons. Pushing aggressively forward with our fragile units should be rewarded.

And we also can't win the speed contest, but that's not a disaster, as I think we should have much more options for deep strike and various assets for pin-point attacks. Speed is important for positioning, so let's focus on that instead.

Force multipliers are a thing and we should excel at taking those things away. Many Archons are trophy hunters and our raiding forces are both well coordinated and have superhuman abilities. We should be the best at killing enemy characters by the means of precise splinter fire, trained beasts, haemonculus wargear or Mandrake/Hellion abduction.

Take that, plug in a lot of horror-weapons/abilities that affect enemy leadership and we are a unique army that can play around the game to get an edge. That's what I want to see.

Now that i agree with "High Risk, High Reward"

Giving Raiders/Ravagers "Rapid Fire" fits in that, it doesnt take away from survivability (aka no 5++), but pseudo less survivability due to you are closer to rapid fire and melee threats.

Im ok with this style of change fully, but not ok with just making us weaker to be weaker, that doesnt make the game any better or fun.

Thats a good idea you had.

I do love his idea about how Raiders can be pimped to match the troops they carry...Coven Raiders causing morale tests or Kabal Raiders giving Splinter re-rolls or Cult Raiders being faster or better yet being able to drop troops at the end of the movement phase.

I would really like to have a custom Raider for my Haemy and Wracks.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I would really like to have a custom Raider for my Haemy and Wracks.

I would strongly recommend checking out EvilSpaceElves's project log as he did a superb custom Covens Raider.

I could definitely get behind the idea of our entire army playing like an assassin. Specializing in killing characters or disrupting command effects. It would give us flavor, identity, and make us viable in tournaments not on the grounds that we are overpowered but instead as a foil to character spamming meta lists.

I think I need to clarify the Glass concept a little. Mainly on how it would mitigate the 1st turn problem.

Before that, I have to stress that in a turn based game with only ~6 turn there is no way to get rid of the 1st turn problem. That is regardless of any army, stats, or anything else you can possibly do. It should not be associated with an army itself.

I will say the hesitations I'm seeing are completely valid, and I'd like to talk about how to address them. I'm singling you out amishprn simply because you're the most vocal. I do think you're conerns are justified.

amishprn wrote:

I dont want a turn 1 win or lose game

amishprn wrote:

i'm saying if you gave use more power and took away our 5++ and maybe the -1 to hit from venoms then we will either die to fast or kill to fast to make games "fun".

I must have failed at description because this is exactly what I was hoping to address. Sorry about that. The idea in my Glass concept is to give alternative protections from 5++ saves, armour, and PfP. Not to remove them and add nothing. The Venom's -1 to hit fits in perfectly with my Glass paradigm. Simply moving the mathhammer from rolling to save to the roll to hit can accomplish the same thing while ALSO opening up tactical play around it. Varying the negatives by range for example.

Further, I don't think Drukhari should generally be able to engage fully on turn 1. For Kabalites/Wyches it's because of what you can do with short ranged weapons, varying penalty based defenses, and some tweaked reserve abilities. Webway portals set up turn 1 ensure you can't even apply damage until turn 2. Giving time for counter play. Remember you must set up half your army to start. Covens wouldn't be all that different from Death Guard. Different flavor abilities and that's about it. Which is OK.

amishprn wrote:

Now that i agree with "High Risk, High Reward"

Exactly! To apply the damage Drukhari would need to be up in the enemy's face. Reavers in my example fit that perfectly. They can still be taken out at range though. Hit penalties wouldn't remove the opponent's ability to fight. However, it would change tactics of targeting and movement significantly. Lascannons become less useful than something like an Assault Cannon against a Raider. That's pretty cool to me. Reserve deployments can break the Drukhari range band defenses. That's a good thing. Counterplay. And I'm sure there is a ton of other things that can be done.

The Red King wrote:

Specializing in killing characters or disrupting command effects.

Command disrupting effects sound fantastic.

Now that sounds a lot better, but the problem stays the same.
Since they made everyone blisteringly fast...
Give us some bonus defenses when far away and better offense when at close range.
It sounds really nice, but in practice it does not work as well. The suggestion above to make our weapons rapid fire. with 18 inch rapid fire and 14/16 inch move means we can nearly reach the back line of their deployment zone turn 1. So not much they can do about it if we get the first turn. We move forward 14/16" and shoot al our weapons at rapid fire range: instant dead enemies with little chance of survival.
And enough enemies can do the same, either by deepstrike (which can be mitigated in larger battles) or just moving forward (enough fast shooty stuf, and first turn charges possible)
Remember even "slow" units like orks on foot have an effective 16 inch average charge distance. Fast units can charge across the board (double moves/ 30 inch movements etc)

Count Adhemar wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I would really like to have a custom Raider for my Haemy and Wracks.

I would strongly recommend checking out EvilSpaceElves's project log as he did a superb custom Covens Raider.

Awesome been looking over his work, very cool!

|Meavar wrote:

Now that sounds a lot better, but the problem stays the same.
Since they made everyone blisteringly fast...
Give us some bonus defenses when far away and better offense when at close range.
It sounds really nice, but in practice it does not work as well. The suggestion above to make our weapons rapid fire. with 18 inch rapid fire and 14/16 inch move means we can nearly reach the back line of their deployment zone turn 1. So not much they can do about it if we get the first turn. We move forward 14/16" and shoot al our weapons at rapid fire range: instant dead enemies with little chance of survival.
And enough enemies can do the same, either by deepstrike (which can be mitigated  in larger battles) or just moving forward (enough fast shooty stuf, and first turn charges possible)
Remember even "slow" units like orks on foot have an effective 16 inch average charge distance. Fast units can charge across the board (double moves/ 30 inch movements etc)

I want no rapid fire weapons. All assault weapons. Shardcarbines being standard. Splinter rifles aren't that great after the to-wound and vehicle changes. Kick them up a notch please. At least they're still better than lasguns.

Yes, there are going to be some flaws and kinks. I'm not presenting the balanced out fixes. Not my job However when looking at it through a thematic perspective I think it's a great improvement. Not perfect, but I'll take it and love it.

Is there any way you can think of to tweak things better?

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I've been thinking over a couple of other things.

There are no armies currently that really encourage having multiple detachments with different keywords. Militarum can benefit from it but they can have trouble trying it. I'd love to see the three Drukhari factions stay separate to get the keyword bonuses. And then, if that's causing some problems, give Drukhari some unique detachments, like small no-hq needed auxiliary that have to attach to a normal detachment. With detachments as-is Drukhari will have a big disadvantage in command points without something being done, or somehow having the 'chapter' bonuses work very differently.

Psychic powers are very... powerful... this edition. Especially that Smite. Drukhari can't defend against it. They also completely miss out on the psychic phase of the game. That's pretty bad. Especially when Haemonculus already give us the teaser on how Drukhari could bring their game there. Crucibles are not good granted. I want to see more Coven anti-psyker tech. Maybe some psych effecting tech that is triggered in the psychic phase as well. Still absolutely no psykers! I mentioned I'd like to see the Cronos as a buff/debuff monster. What if the Cronos had a psychic null aura of some kind around it?