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| Letter to GW about our wishes and requests | |
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+43Von Snabel The goat LordSplata CptMetal Eldanesh Royalecheez Marrath Dark Elf Dave Irinc Lord Nakariial Archon Rixec TeenageAngst Woozl Dalamar nerdelemental Mushkilla lcfr Logan Frost tlronin Faitherun The Red King Ikol amishprn86 Archon_91 Lord Johan Count Adhemar FuelDrop |Meavar Rhameil lament.config Sarkesian Cherrycoke krayd Subsanity DevilDoll The Strange Dark One Jimsolo Mikoneo mattblowers TheBaconPope Red Corsair Burnage Mppqlmd 47 posters | |
What unit should we mention ? | - Special HQs | | 12% | [ 43 ] | - Better regular HQs | | 18% | [ 68 ] | - Reavers | | 12% | [ 43 ] | - Hellions | | 7% | [ 25 ] | - Wyches | | 9% | [ 35 ] | - Poison weapons | | 9% | [ 33 ] | - Heatlances, Shredders, Haywire blasters | | 17% | [ 62 ] | - Pain Engines and grotesques | | 15% | [ 54 ] | - Other units (please state in thread) | | 1% | [ 7 ] |
| Total Votes : 370 | | |
| Author | Message |
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Archon_91 Wych
Posts : 925 Join date : 2017-01-03
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Thu Sep 14 2017, 21:50 | |
| And to add ... Make the Voidraven Bomber ... A bomber ... One bomb isn't enough to justify calling it a bomber ... Unless that one bomb has an effect on every unit within a specific radius of the unit it lands on ... Also why should a bomber have to pay for Missiles it should come stock with ... Or better yet don't give it missiles but bomb pods, have a similar effects to the Missiles but instead of shooting they get dropped on a unit the Voidraven flies over ... And it can drop multiple bombs a turn but only one of each so say it has a Void bomb pod, Shatterfield bomb pod, necrotoxin bomb pod and haywire bomb pod. Void bomb does exactly what it does now but more then once a game, necrotoxin bomb -rolls a D6 for each non vehicle model in the unit on each roll of a 2+ that unit suffers a wound at ap- (hoard control) Shatterfield bomb Str 7 ap-1 3D6 hits reroll failed wounds. Haywire bomb Str 4 ap-1 D6 hits per vehicle in unit, each wounds vehicles on a 4+, wound reduces the vehicles max movement by 1" until the start of the DE next turn and reduces the BS by 1 per hit 7+ means the vehicles weapon systems have been temporarily disabled. ... Idk if that would make the bomber way to powerful but I would pay 200 points for this kinda bomber | |
| | | FuelDrop Hekatrix
Posts : 1392 Join date : 2015-06-21
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Thu Sep 14 2017, 22:23 | |
| - Archon_91 wrote:
- And to add ... Make the Voidraven Bomber ... A bomber ... One bomb isn't enough to justify calling it a bomber ... Unless that one bomb has an effect on every unit within a specific radius of the unit it lands on ... Also why should a bomber have to pay for Missiles it should come stock with ... Or better yet don't give it missiles but bomb pods, have a similar effects to the Missiles but instead of shooting they get dropped on a unit the Voidraven flies over ... And it can drop multiple bombs a turn but only one of each so say it has a Void bomb pod, Shatterfield bomb pod, necrotoxin bomb pod and haywire bomb pod. Void bomb does exactly what it does now but more then once a game, necrotoxin bomb -rolls a D6 for each non vehicle model in the unit on each roll of a 2+ that unit suffers a wound at ap- (hoard control) Shatterfield bomb Str 7 ap-1 3D6 hits reroll failed wounds. Haywire bomb Str 4 ap-1 D6 hits per vehicle in unit, each wounds vehicles on a 4+, wound reduces the vehicles max movement by 1" until the start of the DE next turn and reduces the BS by 1 per hit 7+ means the vehicles weapon systems have been temporarily disabled. ... Idk if that would make the bomber way to powerful but I would pay 200 points for this kinda bomber
A Bomber with more than one bomb?!? MADNESS!!! | |
| | | Sarkesian Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 223 Join date : 2016-01-12 Location : Utah
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Thu Sep 14 2017, 23:26 | |
| - FuelDrop wrote:
- Archon_91 wrote:
- And to add ... Make the Voidraven Bomber ... A bomber ... One bomb isn't enough to justify calling it a bomber ... Unless that one bomb has an effect on every unit within a specific radius of the unit it lands on ... Also why should a bomber have to pay for Missiles it should come stock with ... Or better yet don't give it missiles but bomb pods, have a similar effects to the Missiles but instead of shooting they get dropped on a unit the Voidraven flies over ... And it can drop multiple bombs a turn but only one of each so say it has a Void bomb pod, Shatterfield bomb pod, necrotoxin bomb pod and haywire bomb pod. Void bomb does exactly what it does now but more then once a game, necrotoxin bomb -rolls a D6 for each non vehicle model in the unit on each roll of a 2+ that unit suffers a wound at ap- (hoard control) Shatterfield bomb Str 7 ap-1 3D6 hits reroll failed wounds. Haywire bomb Str 4 ap-1 D6 hits per vehicle in unit, each wounds vehicles on a 4+, wound reduces the vehicles max movement by 1" until the start of the DE next turn and reduces the BS by 1 per hit 7+ means the vehicles weapon systems have been temporarily disabled. ... Idk if that would make the bomber way to powerful but I would pay 200 points for this kinda bomber
A Bomber with more than one bomb?!? MADNESS!!! I'm fine with it only having one bomb. How many bombs did the Enola Gay or Bocks Car drop? Just 1 each. Maybe let it shoot 2 missiles per turn? That would differentiate it from the RWJF to feel more heavy. | |
| | | |Meavar Hekatrix
Posts : 1041 Join date : 2017-01-26
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Fri Sep 15 2017, 06:46 | |
| One or 2 bombs sound ok to me, carrying more is realistically often not feasible if they are the big bombs. But then it should be big bombs. Right now the one bomb we have can't do more then a few wounds. Either it does around 6-7 wounds against a large unit, which is only slightly more then a dissy ravager does each turn, and that means a horde unit, which means sometimes regular kabalite units deal more damage... The bomb does around 2 wounds to a (superheavy) tank, again not much more then a DL ravager deals each turn, when shooting at regular tanks, monsters, and smaller squads a ravager deals more damage then the bomb. Even the other weapons of the voidraven often deal more damage then the bomb.
That being said, right now the point cost of the bomber is not my biggest problem (it might not feel like the bomb is the major focus but it still fills a function), it is the price of the model that stops me mostly... | |
| | | Mppqlmd Incubi
Posts : 1844 Join date : 2017-07-05
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Fri Sep 15 2017, 09:06 | |
| It does 6-7 mortal wounds. That is a lot of mortal wounds. The problem with the VM right now is that it's useless against vehicles, and often against MCs (that are never considered to be a single squad). It could probably rise up to 5 dices per vehicle/MC. | |
| | | FuelDrop Hekatrix
Posts : 1392 Join date : 2015-06-21
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 01:17 | |
| Small request re: Void Raven. Make Implosion missiles deal d3 damage each, so they're better for hunting heavy infantry and light vehicles. Too much out there with multiple wounds, and it has lower strength and half the shots of the shattershard already... | |
| | | amishprn86 Archon
Posts : 4436 Join date : 2014-10-04 Location : Ohio
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 06:01 | |
| I only want a few things BESIDES CHEAPER UNITS (Hellions, Coven units etc...) These are the MINIMUM changes i want in order to keep playing DE, otherwise i'm going to main Harlequins (im tired of playing 4 unit spam for the past 4 years and i'm not doing it for 4 more, if i want to only use 4 unit i'd rather just play Quins).
Splinter cannons to be Rabid 6 (at least on Venoms FFS) Better Auras on HQ's HQ Options for mobility (this should effect the Aura) WWP's even if its like Trygons and you have to buy a unit and its 1 per, IDC i want them back.
Bonus Round, Wyches can have more Wych weapons per unit. | |
| | | Ikol Wych
Posts : 571 Join date : 2017-03-20 Location : Perth
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 10:49 | |
| - Jimsolo wrote:
- I just want Duke Sliscus back.
Like button please. | |
| | | Mppqlmd Incubi
Posts : 1844 Join date : 2017-07-05
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 12:31 | |
| Okay guys here is my attempt at writing that letter. If anything is missing, or you disagree with anything, or if you think you would have expressed something differently, please please say it, as the idea behind this letter was to write something that we could all recognize ourselves in. I'm also not a native english speaker, so there will be typos, and i count on you to help me find them. - Spoiler:
Dear Games Workshop,
Since 8th edition came out, we, members of the Dark City Dark Eldar Forum have been busy little bees. New rules, new units, new stats, new tactics to be imagined, maths to be done, lists to be crafted. More fun to be had. And we think it is important to start this letter with a big : « Thank you », as 8th edition has proved so far to be a ton of amusement for us Dark Eldar players, and it's been a long time since the Drukhari had been so fun to play. We know that all your efforts are directed towards the goal of making this game as enjoyable for us as you possibly can, and it is only fair to acknoledge that, for the portion of the community we represent, it has been the case with 8th edition.
The reason behind this letter is quite simple : we want to help. Your rules development team will be at some point working for weeks on the Drukhari codex, and we wish to facilitate their job, we wish to inform them of our concerted opinions and experiences with the Drukhari Index. We are, in a way, your biggest play-testers, and it's time we give some feedback. So here's a summary of what The Dark City thinks of the current state of Dark Eldars. Here it goes.
The Arsenal
We think it's safe to say that the biggest reason why Dark Eldars are a lot more fun and interesting to play is Darklight. Dark Lances and went from a subpar Anti-Tank weapon to one of the best in the game, and it feels incredible. Ravagers, Jetfighters, Voidravens, Scourges... every unit that can wield a Dark Lance is currently great. The only problem with the Dark Lance right now is... the shadow is casts upon our other special and heavy weapons.
The Heatlance, for instance, feels like an expensive downgrade, since it has less Strength and less range than a Dark Lance while being more expensive. Combined with the fact that you can't Deepstrike Scourges into melta range, this is the second least played of all our weapons. Our opinions on how it could be changed vary : more range (allowing more synergy with Scourges), more Strength (or a reroll to wound against vehicles), or a big price cut.
The Haywire Blaster is in a weird spot right now. It went from being the best AT weapon in our arsenal to a very specific niche (used only against Quantum Shieldings and Harlequin vehicles), the reason being that he can't inflict enough Mortal Wounds to compete with other multi-damage weapons. Some of us think it should simply deal more mortal wounds, but one popular opinion is that it could go back to the role that was its in 5th edition : a « you're not shooting next turn » weapon, dealing very few damage but messing with the electronics of its targets, dealing temporary penalties to hit and move for instance.
The Shredder is the least played weapon of our arsenal, and has been for a while. Supposed to be our Anti-Infantry special weapon, it does not serve its purpose. The main ideas for this weapon are : it could be a flamer, and auto-hit ; it should deal D6 shots instead of D3 ; it could have the mono-filament rule, and gain AP-4 on a 6 to wound.
While Splinter Weaponry is really doing okay (mostly due to how cheap and great Kabalite Warriors are), the Splinter Cannon really is too expensive. The common consensus is that equipping it on Scourges or Kabalites makes no sense : buying more Scourges and Kabalites yields the same amount of shots, while increasing the body count. In the same way, while the Splinter Cannon upgrade for Venoms was considered mandatory in 7th edition, most of us don't do it anymore. Some of us think it's just too expensive. Others think it doesn't shoot fast enough, and it should increase its Rapidfire value. One alternate, yet popular opinion, is that Splinter Weaponry should be Anti-Infantry focused. That portion of our community advocated for the return of a Strength value for those weapons, and suggest the following : S3 for the riffles, S4 for the cannons, both weapons rerolling to wound against infantry and monsters. One last request, that everyone on the forum shares, is the return of our beloved Splinter Racks.
Power from Pain
While the current form of Power from Pain is very powerful (and having an entire army with WS2+ is great, although it makes Drazhar's Aura and the Serpentin drug useless), it doesn't fit with the Dark Eldar playstyle at all, and many around here have renamed it « Power from Patience ». A Dark Eldar army should strike fast and either win hard, or lose hard. It should reward grit and audacity, rather than incite you to wait for a few turns before you attack. So we came up with an idea to replace the Power from Pain chart that is very simple to understand and to use in game, but allows for a lot of tactical depth : « Everytime the Dark Eldar player's opponent loses a unit, the Dark Eldar player gains a Command Point ».
HQs
8th edition, with the introduction of the incredible Command Points mecanics, created a game where having more than one HQ for your army is important and recommanded. This is a problem for Dark Eldar players, because we have no reason to do that.
First, most armies have access to some utility HQs : Medics and Apothecary, Psychers, Company Commanders, Crypteks, Commissars, all those little yet important part of the Command Team are playing a huge role on the battlefield, in addition to filling the important HQ slots for detachments. Dark Eldars only have « important » HQs, and it's incredibly difficult for us to achieve multiple detachments for that reason.
What's more, armies that only have a few HQs often circumvent that problem with the fact that their HQs have a ton of options, which we also lack. In particular, it's currently a nightmare to find a way to move our HQs : it's impossible to put an Archon with Trueborns or Incubi in a Venom, and if you want to put your Succubus in Raider with Wyches, those wyches have to go down to 9, and lose 2 special weapons. Making Venoms go up to 6 slots, and Raiders to 12, would go a very long way.
But one of the most popular and important requests in the preparation of this letter was : we want our HQs to be able to move on their own. We want Scourges wings, Reaver jetbikes, Hellion skyboards, anti-grav Coven thrones, and of course, Webway Portals. Maybe even the possibility to transform an Archon into a Mandrake and make him lurk into the realm of Aelindrach.
But i think the most important request concerning our HQs is the following : we'd really like to see them accomplish something. Appart from the Haemonculus with his very good Aura and his glorious Electro-corrosive whip, our HQs don't really bring much to the table. The utility auras of both Succubus and Archon are very weak, and they don't feel like the amazing fighters they should be.
Auras are a problematic aspect of our army, since in an army entirely transported in vehicles, auras don't even work to begin with. But the Archon would benefit immensely from getting back his « Purge Coterie » capacity to target an enemy unit and give a reroll to allies attacking it. Another idea was that the Archon is a master tactician and could cancel enemy Stratagems that affect nearby units on a roll of 4+. Some suggested that the Haemonculus buff applied to every infantry unit in the army, and that he could give a little extra buff (a bonus to Inured to Pain, for instance) to Coven units. The Succubus, for instance, could make every unit nearby reroll 1's to hit in CC, and make Cult units also reroll 1's to wound. Our HQs have a lot of personality in the lore of the army, but right now the HQ department of the Index is really the least interesting one.
We'll end this section with the following request : we all long to see our beloved Special HQs to make a return. Sathonyx, Vect, Sliscus, Kheradruakh and Malys are all very colourful characters, and they would help us, Dark Eldar players, telling more stories about our faction.
Units
8th edition has been great for Dark Eldars as it saw the rise of many units that were left completly unnoticed in previous editions. Mandrakes are a Top-tier unit (and that says something!), Incubi are top notch, Wyches and Hellions are better (but not quite there yet), Beasts are great, both Planes are incredibly useful, and both Raiders and Ravagers have made a huge comeback over the Venom (that has seen a drop in popularity). But some units are a bit left behind.
Reavers, for example, lost almost all their interest in 8th edition. They doubled in price, have lost their glorious Skilled Rider jink save, their primary special weapon (the Heatlance) is not really playable, and Clustercaltrops are nowhere near what they used to be. They cost more than 4 kabalite warriors, but shoot like 1. We all think they should drop in price. In addition to that, many enhancement could be made : gaining an invulnerable save to replace the old Jink, gaining either access to more special weapons, or to shardcarbins, and maybe giving them back the old Clustercaltrops, that damaged the units they flew over.
Hellions, on the other hand, a much better than what they used to be, but aren't quite there yet, for one big reason : 17 points for 1 HP, T3, 5+ save is a huge risk, even for Dark Eldars. A drop in price would do, or a little invulnerable save against shooting attacks to represent the fact that they are acrobats that are capable of dodging incoming fire. They offensive capacity is great, and with a tiny little more durability they would be a ton of fun to play. One popular idea was to give the Stunclaw a special ability that allowed to move and drag special characters that Hellions flew over. Considering we are an army that has almost no sniper, this would help us a bit dealing with hidden HQs.
Wyches and Bloodbrides suffer from a few problems that prevent them from being awesome. First, the No Retreat rule is unreliable and cannot be counted on for a strategy. We understand that it would be way too good if you didn't have to roll for it, so here is our suggestion : the Shardnet gives the Dark Eldar player +1 to the Roll-off for No Retreat. The second problem is that, while their 4+ invulnerable save is really good, the fact that it doesn't work against pistols is a bit silly, and it makes them unable to stand their ground against anything that has a pistol. The last problem is that, on order to be something more than a tarpit, Wyches require a little more « Umph ». Having AP-1 on regular weapons (or gaining AP-4 on every 6 to wound), having better wych weapons (the Hydra Gauntlet is fine, but the Razorflail and Impaler could be redesigned : for example, the Razorflail could add +1d3 attacks, and the Impaler could be AP-2, D2). Some even suggest that they gain some equivalent to the « Death to the False Emperor », gaining additionnal attacks as they roll 6's to hit.
Grotesques would also need some love right now. They didn't gain any HP while many weapons in the game gained multiple damage, they lost Rampage, and they no longer reroll to wound when their Strength is superior to the enemy Toughness. It wouldn't take much to make them awesome, perhaps a single extra wound would do (a tad more attacks would be good as well), but they definitly require something.
In the same logic, the Talos need some attention. Comparing them with other Monstruous Creatures makes them blush. Defensively, they are okay, but they used to have AP2 because of their MC status. Macro-scalpels should rise to D3 (like Carnifexes weapons) and AP-3 or -4. The Liquifier gun could know a price reduction, or a strength increase. The Ichor Injector could be poisoned 2+.
We really hope that this letter doesn't look like a compilation of rants and complaints, as we appreciate very much the job you've been, and are still doing for this game. It is really an attempt to help you design a game that fits our expectations so that we can, together, make the Warhammer 40k universe live on and prosper.
Best regards from the Dark City
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| | | Mikoneo Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 173 Join date : 2016-12-31
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 12:50 | |
| Looks pretty good to me. I think adding too much more in a single letter would make it more likely to be ignored. Hopefully after realising that the army still gets played they'll try to keep enough stock, it's getting pretty hard to actually buy models to expand | |
| | | The Red King Hekatrix
Posts : 1239 Join date : 2013-07-09
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 12:52 | |
| A few notes, though let me preface by thanking you for talking the time to write this up.
Some of your statements could really use some proof. Ie. "Shredders aren't doing their job, here's some buffs we think would work " just sounds like were asking for the moon. Attaching some of the spreadsheets that forum members have provided and referring to it in the letter should help.
On the whole the letter provides too many solutions to problems that GW has consistently proven they don't see. I suggest the entire letter be slightly altered to the form that the very well done HQ section takes instead. Tell them what isn't working and why before making any suggestions on how to fix it or else it may come across as whiney (to GW, not me).
If you remove the suggested fixes (or even the majority of them) you can also remove the conciliatory statements you make (such as " no escape would be too strong without the roll off", fiends of slaneesh have it and nobody uses them). Removing the suggestions while presenting the problems in both game terms and mathematical analysis should move this more from a plea to a... report, which I think has more chance of reaching anyone in a heartless business. They need to be convinced there is a problem (dissatisfied customers) that is also grounded in their product (mathematical and tactical analysis like you've provided) before we can hope to see any effort on their part.
Lastly making it a report of the numerous short falls makes it a more cohesive representation of the players on this forum, as we can all agree on math even if we can't agree on which fix is best.
Lastly @philkelly this letter and post it in numerous locations. If it's publicly visible they can less afford to ignore it.
Thank you again. | |
| | | Faitherun Sybarite
Posts : 297 Join date : 2017-02-13
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 13:56 | |
| First - great letter. There are a few ideas etc that I'd love to add, but if we started doing that this would turn into a 50 page document. What you have hits the core issues on the head.
I took the liberty of setting this up in google docs, and editing it for spelling, grammar, and syntax. If you are not familiar with google docs, anyone who clicks on the link below can also make comments. I did all my edits using the edit function, so if you Mmpqlmd, like them, I can hit the check mark and the doc will add them for you.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XNp5SwzBsbeTpjx4zcOVD3BBI6teZY5PGFwR7uRk50I/edit?usp=sharing | |
| | | tlronin Wych
Posts : 818 Join date : 2011-06-23 Location : The Netherlands
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 14:02 | |
| First, thank you for writing the letter. Awesome. It's pretty good for a first attempt. Agreed with Red King though. He has valid points. I am highly anticipating your 2nd attempt. | |
| | | Mppqlmd Incubi
Posts : 1844 Join date : 2017-07-05
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 14:06 | |
| Wow guys, it's nice to see such enthusiasm ! Great idea with the Googledoc, it's probably the most sensible way to handle it.
I agree with your remarks, RedKing. Do you think we should include such informations (stats) in the core text, or juxtapose it within an "appendix" ? | |
| | | Faitherun Sybarite
Posts : 297 Join date : 2017-02-13
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 14:18 | |
| Great - I added all the edits there.
For the PfP idea - I know it's been bandied about that we get +1 CP per unit destroyed. I fear this will make us too OP or have so much CP it loses it's worth to us. What if it was on a 4+ we gain a CP, with Vect boosting that to a 2+ | |
| | | The Red King Hekatrix
Posts : 1239 Join date : 2013-07-09
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 14:53 | |
| Probably an addendum. Don't want to bore them lol. | |
| | | Count Adhemar Dark Lord of Granbretan
Posts : 7610 Join date : 2012-04-26 Location : London
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 16:32 | |
| - Faitherun wrote:
- Great - I added all the edits there.
For the PfP idea - I know it's been bandied about that we get +1 CP per unit destroyed. I fear this will make us too OP or have so much CP it loses it's worth to us. What if it was on a 4+ we gain a CP, with Vect boosting that to a 2+ I'm not sure how many units you routinely destroy throughout a battle but, particularly in the horde meta of 8e, having a guaranteed +1CP for each unit kill is not going to make us OP. Having to roll to get the CP also means you can effectively go the entire battle without PfP at all if you roll badly. Don't forget, this is supposed to be in place of the current PfP rules! | |
| | | Faitherun Sybarite
Posts : 297 Join date : 2017-02-13
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 16:46 | |
| I am finding I get about 8 units killed min per game. 4 extra CP, on top of the 6 I get from a battle forged detachment - 12 CP may be too much - 8 is pretty good.
If yall disagree that is fine. | |
| | | Logan Frost Sybarite
Posts : 465 Join date : 2016-01-25
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 17:35 | |
| I'd rather not lose the buffs from PfP in favor to CPs. I'd suggest something like KDK blood tithe in 7th, unlocking buffs with kill points. | |
| | | Archon_91 Wych
Posts : 925 Join date : 2017-01-03
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 17:49 | |
| Though the chart shouldn't run per turn ... I like the idea of 5th edition where killing a unit gained the bonus but change it so the bonus is army wide ... I understand the idea of "every turn this happens" is to show the progression of pain throughout the fight but it doesn't do a very good job of really making the amount of pain caused felt ... Advancing the chart every time a unit is destroyed I think would be better ... And have 7-10 different buffs on the chart as it's a safe bet that every army will have at least 7 units for us to destroy. And each unit destroyed adds to the chart . (Units destroyed by moral count) Quick chart. 0 units destroyed - 6+++ 1 unit reroll hits of 1 shooting and CC 2 reroll charge distance 3 +1 to hit shooting and cc 4 advance 6+++ to a 5+++ 5 -1 leadership bubble 12" 6 auto pass moral 7 advance 5+++ to 4+++ 8 +1 to wound Shooting and cc 9 -2 moral bubble 10 Win (let's face it ... By this time the opponents army is wiped or very very very close to it) This basically gives us a reason to focus fire on units instead of doing a couple of wounds and letting moral take a couple more ... But this might be a bit powerful
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| | | Lord Johan Kabalite Warrior
Posts : 169 Join date : 2016-07-21 Location : Coming to a realspace near you
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 19:17 | |
| I would also suggest adding some math, since a statement of "The Heatlance, for instance, feels like an expensive downgrade" or "The Haywire Blaster is in a weird spot right now" or "the Shredder should be D6" can be understood to mean you do not like the weapon or that it didn't work out for you in a few games - subjective feedback.
But we have calculated this and the haywire blaster and heat lance are literally numerically worse than other comparable anti-armor weapons on offer versus all common targets. The HWB is worse than a blaster even vs vehicles, unless it's a T9 target or has unusual saves, which makes HWB not worth taking. The heat lance is worse even at its melta range than a dark lance unless the target has T9 or Sv2+ and in the latter case the difference is a few percent points only. And you are paying 25 points for it which is more than you would for a dark lance. Even the Blaster is better than the heat lance vs a T7 vehicle. All this would be fixed if it were S8 like marine weapons. So using numbers should highlight the issue better.
Personally wrt/ content of the letter I would emphasize highlighting problems and possibly offering some simple fixes (e.g adjust a value so the math makes more sense) without extensive wishlisting or re-imagining the army, so that there is no loss of focus and the message stays clear. Good stuff, however.
e: paragraph 2 was missing a few words | |
| | | krayd Hekatrix
Posts : 1343 Join date : 2011-10-03 Location : Richmond, VA
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 20:57 | |
| I still think that +1CP per destroyed unit as a replacement for PfP is rather bland, and has its worth *entirely* contingent on how good the stratagems in the book are. So I think that it is a valid concern that, if GW grants this request, it could be cancelled out with craptastic stratagems (especially since we haven't given them any direction on that front as part of our PfP suggestion in the letter - but if we do, then the letter might be *too* long).
It might be a good idea to leave that out of this letter, for the sake of economy, and then, in a month or two, submit a letter entirely devoted to fixing PfP, which, if you go with the CP idea, is a multi-part solution. | |
| | | Mppqlmd Incubi
Posts : 1844 Join date : 2017-07-05
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 21:29 | |
| Thanks for all the feedback guys. Looks like the PfP is really controversial (more than i thought) so maybe we should indeed leave it out, since it does not represent a consensus ?
I will try and rework it tomorrow and set myself to assemble a global mathammer sheets for every unit/weapon that is listed as lackluster. Any help is welcome of course. | |
| | | FuelDrop Hekatrix
Posts : 1392 Join date : 2015-06-21
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sat Sep 16 2017, 23:50 | |
| I am still a fan of simply reversing how the power from pain table works. You start with everything and lose stuff every turn that you don't wipe a unit.
Alternatively, give unique PFP stratagems that can only be triggered when a unit is destroyed (thus giving a CP) which affect large sections of the army, rather than just one unit. | |
| | | Mppqlmd Incubi
Posts : 1844 Join date : 2017-07-05
| Subject: Re: Letter to GW about our wishes and requests Sun Sep 17 2017, 00:05 | |
| - Quote :
- I am still a fan of simply reversing how the power from pain table works. You start with everything and lose stuff every turn that you don't wipe a unit.
While i see the logic behind this, that's not how a DE raid works. The DE don't raid to feed immediatly, they raid to capture victims. That proposition makes them feel a bit like junkies in withdrawal. - Quote :
- Alternatively, give unique PFP stratagems that can only be triggered when a unit is destroyed (thus giving a CP) which affect large sections of the army, rather than just one unit.
I like that one better. Basically, it would be "Everytime you slay a unit, chose one benefit from the following table. Your army gains that benefit until the start of your next turn". | |
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