On poison e splinter weapons.

Just because the Raider is getting buffed, also doesnt mean the Venom cant either.....

So here's how I see it:

There needs to be viable reasons to take both a raider and a venom. Right now the venom is a bad choice all around due to its poor firepower (why take splinter cannons if a raider can get a disintegrator?), low transport capacity (minimum sized squads are not great outside of certain very specialized exceptions), and the difference in price tag being pretty low.

It's designed to transport small elite units into battle, but very few of our options work well as small units, due to how unelite many of our elites are. Combined with the option to take two small squads in a single raider for a far cheaper way to get things done and the venom is already lagging seriously behind.

Both need a buff, but right now the Venom is suffering.

I'm confused by the hate for Venoms here. I much prefer them to Raiders; yes, they lack Dark Lances or Disintegrators, but they're Hard To Hit, faster, don't degrade and make for a more dispersed threat to your opponent. Both Kabalites and Trueborn - which, let's be honest, are our primary candidates for staying in transports - also work fine as MSU.

They're certainly not one of the units in our list that I'd consider trash.

Burnage wrote:

I'm confused by the hate for Venoms here. I much prefer them to Raiders; yes, they lack Dark Lances or Disintegrators, but they're Hard To Hit, faster, don't degrade and make for a more dispersed threat to your opponent. Both Kabalites and Trueborn - which, let's be honest, are our primary candidates for staying in transports - also work fine as MSU.

They're certainly not one of the units in our list that I'd consider trash.

I dont like them for 4 reason

1) Limited to 5 (not 6) capacity
2) I dont like Poison, never have
3) Dis Cannons are hard to get, poison is everywhere
4) Starweavers are 100% better in everyway and i have 5 of them, Troupes+Starweavers made me hate Wyches/Venoms...... (Wyches and Venoms is WHY i started DE, now Troupes and Starweavers are the playstyle i want, so rather play DE with Beasts, Tantalus and Ravagers/Raiders b.c its the other style i like)

@amishprn86 : Yeah better not compare Eldar/Harlies to Dark eldar rules & point wise, personnaly I just find this truely depressing..

Anyway I like venoms for a melee oriented army (wyches/beasts) as it also provides a decent amount of firepower, and draw less attention when troups have disembarked.
Also their decent moves allow to get them crushcharging into enemy supports sitting in the back of the battlefield preventing them from firing.

Next turn disengage, fire, charge again.

I don't own many vehicule models, and I often use a mix of raiders and venoms (2 each) and they turn out pretty fine.

Yeah i know i shouldnt compare, but they are the same points (with 2 Splinter cannons) and the Starweaver just does so much more damage, more capacity and 4++ :/ Troupes with no upgrades are only 2pts more than Bloodbrides, has 1 more attack with a 4++ always and can charge/move over models/terrain.

I just dont understand why Wyches, bloodbrides, and Venoms are so over costed.

Quote :

Troupes with no upgrades are only 2pts more than Bloodbrides, has 1 more attack with a 4++ always and can charge/move over models/terrain.

Don't forget that they have pseudo-fly, occupy the Troops slot, have, arguably, better pistols, and that every model can customize both their Close Quarters and ranged weapon.

Seriously, you look at things like this and you just have to wonder what the designers were thinking.

TheBaconPope wrote:

Quote :

Troupes with no upgrades are only 2pts more than Bloodbrides, has 1 more attack with a 4++ always and can charge/move over models/terrain.

Don't forget that they have pseudo-fly, occupy the Troops slot, have, arguably, better pistols, and that every model can customize both their Close Quarters and ranged weapon.

Seriously, you look at things like this and you just have to wonder what the designers were thinking.

Yep... and sadly thats why i shelved my DE once again.... Well besides the Bomber and some Beast.

(.. and they can hit and run, rend (range AND melee), ... )

I still liek to add that for about 12 years out splinterweapons were only strenght 3 and no poison. it was such an improvement, and still is nice to have. but I agree that no buffs (so far) and no specials on wounds or hits of sixes (like the shuriken weapons) is there.
But splinter cannons are currently not entering my army, for reaosns mentioned above.
I like my 4 units of 6 scourges with 2 darklances, they are so annoying and can jump away from most cc and shoot from 36'' at precoius little thingies.

Dr.Morbid wrote:

I still liek to add that for about 12 years out splinterweapons were only strenght 3 and no poison. it was such an improvement, and still is nice to have. but I agree that no buffs (so far) and no specials on wounds or hits of sixes (like the shuriken weapons) is there.
But splinter cannons are currently not entering my army, for reaosns mentioned above.
I like my 4 units of 6 scourges with 2 darklances, they are so annoying and can jump away from most cc and shoot from 36'' at precoius little thingies.

I think we need to get out of the mindset of "We were awful 10 years ago, so comparatively, we're much better now!"

The conversation needs to be based around:

What type of rework will need to happen in order to make Dark Eldar competitive as their own, stand alone army.

Our weaponry is rubbish against trash mobs. Don't care what the perspective is: the best you can ever hope for a 4+ on a T2 or T3 enemy? That's obnoxious.

Dr.Morbid wrote:

I still liek to add that for about 12 years out splinterweapons were only strenght 3 and no poison. it was such an improvement, and still is nice to have. but I agree that no buffs (so far) and no specials on wounds or hits of sixes (like the shuriken weapons) is there.
But splinter cannons are currently not entering my army, for reaosns mentioned above.
I like my 4 units of 6 scourges with 2 darklances, they are so annoying and can jump away from most cc and shoot from 36'' at precoius little thingies.

I think we need to get out of the mindset of "We were awful 10 years ago, so comparatively, we're much better now!"

The conversation needs to be based around:

What type of rework will need to happen in order to make Dark Eldar competitive as their own, stand alone army.

Our weaponry is rubbish against trash mobs. Don't care what the perspective is: the best you can ever hope for a 4+ on a T2 or T3 enemy? That's obnoxious.

SushiBoy013 wrote:

I think we need to get out of the mindset of "We were awful 10 years ago, so comparatively, we're much better now!"

The conversation needs to be based around:

What type of rework will need to happen in order to make Dark Eldar competitive as their own, stand alone army.

Our weaponry is rubbish against trash mobs. Don't care what the perspective is: the best you can ever hope for a 4+ on a T2 or T3 enemy? That's obnoxious.

I think we also need to get out of the mindset we are rubbish.

Yes we do not have the best tools to deal with trash mobs. Who cares, we are pretty good against t5 spam and such with kabalites.
I think the problem is not that our splinter weapons are bad against them. We have the tools to deal with them, unfortunately right now those tools themself are not viable.
Half of our complaints are that our melee str is usually only 3, well this would be great against those trash mobs.
When the wych cult units are viable the problem with poison is not so big anymore. Some special weapons might have to change as well (shredder, haywire, heat lances).
Kabalites are one of the things that actually are working reasonably well, a lot of people are fielding them and winning games with them. I hope they improve the units that really need the boost, this way we can actually make viable different armies instead of only darklight spam with a bunch of kabalites in vehicles.

One thing I don't get though is why people are so against wyches (and Wracks) being base strength 4 ... We say fluffwise alot but wych cults are basically the peak of the Dark Eldar physical physique excelling in speed and power. To me, at least, being a gladiator constantly fighting in an arena would mean yer just a tad stronger than the guys that watch. This extends to Incubi as well. Wracks on the other hand are genetic experience that far exceed the level of genetic mutation that Space Marines probably have and should probably resemble that.

We aren't against wrack being base 4. But in the 40K universe, a space marine is S4. A 7ft tall, bio-engineered superhuman. No normal human, or human-like should be S4

Archon_91 wrote:

One thing I don't get though is why people are so against wyches (and Wracks) being base strength 4 ... We say fluffwise alot but wych cults are basically the peak of the Dark Eldar physical physique excelling in speed and power. To me, at least, being a gladiator constantly fighting in an arena would mean yer just a tad stronger than the guys that watch. This extends to Incubi as well. Wracks on the other hand are genetic experience that far exceed the level of genetic mutation that Space Marines probably have and should probably resemble that.

Because a Wych does not match the physical strength of an Ork or the genetically engineered monsters that are known as Space Marines.

And the thing about Wyches is not that they hit hard, but that they are acrobatic and strike with lethal precision and grace. They wear enemies down and dodge their blows until they are so exhausted that they can be brought down with a finishing move.

If anything, we should get simply more attacks and have better AP. Either a flat AP-1 on all Wyches or a AP-4 on all wounds of 6.

We are not a brute force faction, we are Eldar and as such we should excel in finesse.
And S4 on Wracks really wouldn't change anything, since their main thing is poison melee.

Then explain the catachan regiment ... Standard imperial guard that are str 4, and lore that I've read puts Druhkari as stronger than humans and our Craftworld cousin ... I agree that a wyches speed should be unmatched and that "death by a thousand cuts" is definitely their style, but if those thousand cuts have all the strength of a light breeze than it isn't gonna do much more than leaves in the same breeze, I know everything in lore can't transfer onto the table top (though that seems to be more and more what GW is trying to do with the new codecies) but when 1 wych is supposed to be equal to any 10 human warriors (again just going with what I've read) than that has to show at least a tiny bit on the table.

One thing that has always bugged me in 40k (in comparison to WHFB) is that, in 40k, the standard value for a stat is 4 (WS, BS, S or T).

The standard value for a stat in WHFB is 3, because the reference is the Imperial Human profile. And so, S4 is considered strong, WS 4 is considered elite... etc.
When you see T4 for a dwarf, you feel "Oh, those are tough". When you see T5 (or even T6) for a dwarf lord, you say "Wow, that's going to be hard to kill".

In 40k, since the reference statline is... the statline of a genetical enhanced human that excels in everything... it is really hard to hit that "Wow" feeling. Your troops will, at most, be as good as a Space Marine IN ONE CATEGORY.
Lets put it that way : a Space Marine is as strong as a Necron, as tough as an Ork, as skilled as an Harlequin, as precise as a Craftworlder.


So yeah. Wyches are S3. Because they are not genetical engineered monsters, or 8 feet tall monsters, or killing robots, or Alien rip-offs. They are people. They shine because they are skilled, dedicated to combat, and very fast.

Not because they took part in the "My space warrior is more killier than yours" contest that seems to have taken place in the GW HQ for a long time now.

Isn't Catachan tho special? I have a friend that plays them, he talked about it before, they had something about them that was way they are better in Melee.. I could text him or google it, but dont really want too b.c i hate IG fluff lol.

Archon_91 wrote:

Then explain the catachan regiment ... Standard imperial guard that are str 4, and lore that I've read puts Druhkari as stronger than humans and our Craftworld cousin ... I agree that a wyches speed should be unmatched and that "death by a thousand cuts" is definitely their style, but if those thousand cuts have all the strength of a light breeze than it isn't gonna do much more than leaves in the same breeze, I know everything in lore can't transfer onto the table top (though that seems to be more and more what GW is trying to do with the new codecies) but when 1 wych is supposed to be equal to any 10 human warriors (again just going with what I've read) than that has to show at least a tiny bit on the table.

Who would win an arm wrestling contest between Arnold Schwarzenegger (or his character in Predator. That's the epitome of the Catachan regiment) and a ninja master ?
Definilty Schwarzenegger.

But an knife fight ?
The Ninja would, very probably, destroy poor old Schwarzie.

Mppqlmd wrote:

Archon_91 wrote:

Then explain the catachan regiment ... Standard imperial guard that are str 4, and lore that I've read puts Druhkari as stronger than humans and our Craftworld cousin ... I agree that a wyches speed should be unmatched and that "death by a thousand cuts" is definitely their style, but if those thousand cuts have all the strength of a light breeze than it isn't gonna do much more than leaves in the same breeze, I know everything in lore can't transfer onto the table top (though that seems to be more and more what GW is trying to do with the new codecies) but when 1 wych is supposed to be equal to any 10 human warriors (again just going with what I've read) than that has to show at least a tiny bit on the table.

Who would win an arm wrestling contest between Arnold Schwarzenegger (or his character in Predator. That's the epitome of the Catachan regiment) and a ninja master ?
Definilty Schwarzenegger.

But an knife fight ?
The Ninja would, very probably, destroy poor old Schwarzie.

Good Example, and if you read the Wych fluff they are not strong, they use their skills and knowledge to hit weak spots, Hench why i said we need -1ap on all or at least Rending on full squads.

Mppqlmd wrote:

Archon_91 wrote:

...

Who would win an arm wrestling contest between Arnold Schwarzenegger (or his character in Predator. That's the epitome of the Catachan regiment) and a ninja master ?
Definilty Schwarzenegger.

But an knife fight ?
The Ninja would, very probably, destroy poor old Schwarzie.

I love that comparison.

Strength should be thought of more as combat prowess than the "do you even lift bro?" measurement. Sure, a marine is stronger than a a normal human, before even factoring power armor. Unfortunately, the scale goes from 3 to 4. That same S3->S4 scale says a guardsman in paper armor has the same strength as a power armored Sister. Power amplified *anything* is going to beat out unpowered in terms of human physique. So we know our scale just doesn't work, before even bringing Xenos into it. Since they won't change the scale, we have to change how we perceive the scale.

So, if we ditch the mentality of strength = muscle and treat it more as combat prowess, you can make the equation of Wych to Marine. They should be as deadly hand to hand as a beefed up mutant, but the draw back of course if the lack of mass+armor (ie: lower toughness). That, imho, is a fair trade off - as long as the points reflect it

ncshooter426 wrote:

Strength should be thought of more as combat prowess than the "do you even lift bro?" measurement. Sure, a marine is stronger than a a normal human, before even factoring power armor. Unfortunately, the scale goes from 3 to 4. That same S3->S4 scale says a guardsman in paper armor has the same strength as a power armored Sister. Power amplified *anything* is going to beat out unpowered in terms of human physique. So we know our scale just doesn't work, before even bringing Xenos into it. Since they won't change the scale, we have to change how we perceive the scale.

So, if we ditch the mentality of strength = muscle and treat it more as combat prowess, you can make the equation of Wych to Marine. They should be as deadly hand to hand as a beefed up mutant, but the draw back of course if the lack of mass+armor (ie: lower toughness). That, imho, is a fair trade off - as long as the points reflect it

Combat prowess is defined by WS

dumpeal wrote:

ncshooter426 wrote:

Strength should be thought of more as combat prowess than the "do you even lift bro?" measurement. Sure, a marine is stronger than a a normal human, before even factoring power armor. Unfortunately, the scale goes from 3 to 4. That same S3->S4 scale says a guardsman in paper armor has the same strength as a power armored Sister. Power amplified *anything* is going to beat out unpowered in terms of human physique. So we know our scale just doesn't work, before even bringing Xenos into it. Since they won't change the scale, we have to change how we perceive the scale.

So, if we ditch the mentality of strength = muscle and treat it more as combat prowess, you can make the equation of Wych to Marine. They should be as deadly hand to hand as a beefed up mutant, but the draw back of course if the lack of mass+armor (ie: lower toughness). That, imho, is a fair trade off - as long as the points reflect it

Combat prowess is defined by WS

So give us a special rule that makes our weapon skill work for more than connecting.
"On a 6+ to hit, attacks from this unit automatically wound at AP -2"