Why do I always see RWJFs over Voidravens?

Hi all,

In most of the lists I see, it's almost always Razorwing Jetfighters over Voidraven Bombers in the flyer slot.

Is there something I'm missing?

Assuming 2x Dark Lances, Splinter Cannon, and best missile choice on the RWJF and 2x Dark Scythes on the Voidraven, we have, for an average wound per round of shooting comparison:

--edit for clarity--
This comparison was done with:
- Razorwing Jetfighter, 2x Dark Lance, Splinter Cannon, 170 pts
- Voidraven Bomber, 2x Dark Scythes, void mine, does not have missiles, 169 pts

GEQ - RWJF 4.33, VR 2.22
MEQ - RWJF 2.82, VR 2.22
TEQ - RWJF 2.38, VR 3.56
T7 Vehicle - RWJF 4.21, VR 3.56
T8 vehicle - RWJF 3.07, VR 2.67

Plus the void mine. Averages 6.67 mortal wounds on a squad of 10, 3.33 on a squad of 5, and 2 on vehicle/monster.

And an additional 2 wounds defensively.

Why does the RWJF seem to be the go-to choice? Basically negligible shooting difference (less than a wound on everything but GEQ), but the Voidraven has the ability to put the mine out for mortal wounds.

I would just expect to see more of the Voidraven given how close they are, but I see prettymuch exclusively RWJF. What gives?

I have neither, but I've been looking at the RWJF over the Voidraven for one main reason; the RWJF model is almost half the price of the Voidraven.

Burnage wrote:

I have neither, but I've been looking at the RWJF over the Voidraven for one main reason; the RWJF model is almost half the price of the Voidraven.

Very real factor.

The other factor is that the RWJF is cheaper in points while bringing comparable firepower to the table.

The voidraven has 2 advantages, but pays for them.

- Some AI mortal wounds, very much needed against some armies
- S9, which is super duper useful when you go against T8 tank spam.

If you play against an army that doesn't require you to have S9 over S8, and doesn't really need AI mortal wounds then yes, the VR is an overpriced RWJF.

Chippen wrote:

Hi all,

In most of the lists I see, it's almost always Razorwing Jetfighters over Voidraven Bombers in the flyer slot.

Is there something I'm missing?

Assuming 2x Dark Lances, Splinter Cannon, and best missile choice on the RWJF and 2x Dark Scythes on the Voidraven, we have, for an average wound per round of shooting comparison:

GEQ - RWJF 4.33, VR 2.22
MEQ - RWJF 2.82, VR 2.22
TEQ - RWJF 2.38, VR 3.56
T7 Vehicle - RWJF 4.21, VR 3.56
T8 vehicle - RWJF 3.07, VR 2.67

Plus the void mine. Averages 6.67 mortal wounds on a squad of 10, 3.33 on a squad of 5, and 2 on vehicle/monster.

And an additional 2 wounds defensively.

Why does the RWJF seem to be the go-to choice? Basically negligible shooting difference (less than a wound on everything but GEQ), but the Voidraven has the ability to put the mine out for mortal wounds.

I would just expect to see more of the Voidraven given how close they are, but I see prettymuch exclusively RWJF. What gives?

Because they are two completely different units serving two completely different purposes.
The RWJF is AT, while the Voidraven is anti-heavy infantry (and superior in that regard by a magnitude).

The only thing that speaks againts the Voidraven is that it's role is not a necessary one.

All fair points, particularly the dolla dolla bills, y'all. To clarify, I did the comparison in the OP without missiles on the Voidraven, so the points cost is the same (170 vs 169).

Am I just overvaluing the mortal wounds in my head? I see a ton of applications where clutch removal of strong infantry units would be great, especially daemons and Genestealers with invuln saves, devastators, whatever.

Chippen wrote:

All fair points, particularly the dolla dolla bills, y'all. To clarify, I did the comparison in the OP without missiles on the Voidraven, so the points cost is the same (170 vs 169).

Am I just overvaluing the mortal wounds in my head? I see a ton of applications where clutch removal of strong infantry units would be great, especially daemons and Genestealers with invuln saves, devastators, whatever.

Mortal wounds are great against high value stuff. But the thing is that Genestealers and Demons are the perfect targets for our poison weapons.

Eliminating Devastators or the like is fantastic, but a razorwing with disintegrators is still pretty effective at bringing them down.

The one use mortal wounds, to my mind, are hard to make worthwhile. They can be, such as if someone fields a 10-man TH/SS termie squad, but it can be hard to pick a suitable target.

The voidraven is slightly more expensive which for me also is a real factor.

The voidraven bomb sounds good, but I found that moving it to the right place often leads it to being badly deployed (might also be me because I am not that experienced).
Also the damage difference is quite big, if you do not shoot 1 target. shooting at just meq is only a 27% increase, or a 18% against tanks.
But now compare 2 rounds of shooting, going missle and rifle vs meq and lances vs tanks.
RJF: 6.22 vs tanks and 2.96 MEQ
VR: 3.55 vs tanks and 2.22 MEQ
Suddenly the RJF looks much better.
Which means that depending on what you target with the mine it often comes down to what you meat, do you see much t8 or t4 with 2 wounds then the VR pulls ahead (but against t4 multiwound the disintegrators actually prove even more formidable), do you see a lot of t5-7 (or bad saves) then the RJF usually pulls ahead.
Usually I find that the razorwing deals slightly more damage, and the major reason that brings the  voidbomber on equal footing is the bomb.

The voidraven hangover from 7th.

The model got released with underwhelming stats. It almost cost in real money what a LoW would run. It got a buff in 8th but, not enough of one to counter the entry fee.

I can't lie and say that didn't pick one up after the buff. It tends to get solo'd out though as it's the only one I own.

I picked up 2 razorwing jetfighters back when they first came out. I preordered them! I never leave home without them, for edition after edition. It has had its peaks and valleys (back in 7th they were one of our two AA options, and they alpha striked like a mofo thanks to their opening missile barrage), but on the whole I have never regretted having them in a list.

I managed to pick up my Voidraven on ebay for £28 brand new in box, which is basically the same as the RWJF is brand new from GW. It is worth noting that the Voidraven is not direct only, so you can find 3rd party sellers with up to 25% off the GW price, making it a bit more palatable.

I hate the RWJF's it never does any thing as good as my Bomber's, my Bombers always out preform every game.... for 14pts it does dbl the wounds... so its well worth it for me.

I don't own a void raven, but wish I did.

In your test you factored in a splinter cannon. No one takes that it is an absolute waste of points, and makes the RWJF better at what it does.

I have two RWJFs, lovely models, but I'm not convinced they are better than my ravagers.
They perform a slightly different role (I'm not afraid to suicide a rwjf to kill a character), and they are have a more diverse armoury which is handy, but requires multiple targets to get the best value from. And multi targets splits your fire and doesn't wipe out one target, for more retaliatory fire, so that is also a balance.

It in the end I take them for the model and diversity along with ravagers.

LordSplata wrote:

In your test you factored in a splinter cannon. No one takes that it is an absolute waste of points, and makes the RWJF better at what it does.

The Dark City as a whole seems very down on Splinter Cannons, but I think they're fine options when mounted on vehicles. I'd never take them on Scourges, though.

Burnage wrote:

LordSplata wrote:

In your test you factored in a splinter cannon. No one takes that it is an absolute waste of points, and makes the RWJF better at what it does.

The Dark City as a whole seems very down on Splinter Cannons, but I think they're fine options when mounted on vehicles. I'd never take them on Scourges, though.

Not thedarkcity, only about 1/2, i personally hate all poison and wish i could just have bolters....

amishprn86 wrote:

Burnage wrote:

LordSplata wrote:

In your test you factored in a splinter cannon. No one takes that it is an absolute waste of points, and makes the RWJF better at what it does.

The Dark City as a whole seems very down on Splinter Cannons, but I think they're fine options when mounted on vehicles. I'd never take them on Scourges, though.

Not thedarkcity, only about 1/2, i personally hate all poison and wish i could just have bolters....

I remember when rifles were S 3 AP 5, and Cannons were S 4 AP 5 Assault 4.

S3 -1ap i would take over poison...... I want ALL our weapons to have some AP over us having poison, its more fluffy to me.

amishprn86 wrote:

S3 -1ap i would take over poison...... I want ALL our weapons to have some AP over us having poison, its more fluffy to me.

I'd take poison with a -1AP. Statistically it's pretty much the same as +1S against T3 stuff and obviously helps out against pretty much everyone else too.

I want poison, but reroll failed wounds against infantry (or at least against T 3 or less)

A Jetfighter is the same cost as a ravager (no splinter cannon nonsense)

It has better movement, -1 to be hit, and the missles make up for the loss of one of the three dark lances. They also throw a twin splinter cannon (4 shots within 12", 2 otherwise) for fun. The RWJF is hands down better than the voidraven just because of the split fire rules letting the missles, rifle and lances all target the choicest units. the voidraven makes you fly out of position to utilize its bomb, and has 2 lance weapons. Not ideal.

If the voidraven drops 40 points or so with the new book, people MAY start taking them more.

The missiles and the TWSRifle don't accomplish as much as a DL/dissie. But it is indeed faster and hard to hit.

But you don't play the VR for the voidlane, you play it for the 2d3 blaster shots, which is a very fun anti-elite tool. Combine that with the voidmine, and you're looking at a pretty solid TEQ counterpick. The problem, of course, is that Termies aren't that popular to begin with.

Mppqlmd wrote:

The missiles and the TWSRifle don't accomplish as much as a DL/dissie. But it is indeed faster and hard to hit.

But you don't play the VR for the voidlane, you play it for the 2d3 blaster shots, which is a very fun anti-elite tool. Combine that with the voidmine, and you're looking at a pretty solid TEQ counterpick. The problem, of course, is that Termies aren't that popular to begin with.

Primaris Interceptors (spelling) and DG will be INSANELY popular now, those Interceptors are 1/2 the cost now (cheaper with the Heavy Bolters i think too) get ready for spamming of them.

Oh, ps with White Scars they can shoot, charge, fall back, shoot, charge, Plasma is Assault, making them even more scary.

Quote :

Primaris Interceptors (spelling) and DG will be INSANELY popular now, those Interceptors are 1/2 the cost now (cheaper with the Heavy Bolters i think too) get ready for spamming of them.

Oh, ps with White Scars they can shoot, charge, fall back, shoot, charge, Plasma is Assault, making them even more scary.

Oh that's terrifying. Where'd you get that information, I'd love to have a look at it

Sneak peak at the Chapter Approve, dont have link atm.

I have a Voidraven mostly for the aesthetic, but it does well at times too. It was probably my first star in three of the five tournament games I played over the weekend.

First game it bombed a unit of Plague Marines mostly out of existence, then overwatched 4 wounds off a Daemon Prince, before helping finish off all the Plague Marines and surviving the game.

Second game a 10 strong unit of Death Company tried to deep strike in and assault it. They missed, but the Void Mine didn't miss, and the Dark Scythes then finished off a Vindicator.

Next two games were OK, but didn't do anything spectacular, before in the final game, a unit of 8 Ravenguard Veterans with Lightning Claws chose to deep strike in front of it, made the charge, but didn't kill the Voidraven. With one command re-roll, there were no Veterans left for my psychic or shooting phase.

I just want the second Void Mine statagem in the Codex