my wishlist

oh Im sure everyone has a wishlist going on for what they want for the Dark Eldar. I'm not an old school Dark Eldar player, I only joined on when the new models came out. But...my two cents..for what its worth (approximately $0.02)

Splinter Cannons need -1ap. This will give us a reason to take them...help us clear out marines in cover. I mean, they took away our 36in threat range of 12 shots...the least they could do is make it punch harder...

Liquifiers back to str 4- I never saw it overpowered, or needed to be nerfed...but it happened. We definitely need some strong auto-hits in the codex to come up to par...

Assaults?- I dont know, I feel like we should be able to assault out of a vehicle after it already moved. many armies have units that can assault after advancing...so I dont see it as that big of a deal, and would give our army more of a 'fast' feel.

More Assaults?- I dunno. Im very disappointed that our hq weapon selection is so poor. We should have some multi-wound weapons worth taking. maybe some mortal wound dealing weapons.

HQ- I mean, I dont know about the rest of you, but Im still bitter about them culling our unique HQ's. I want back HQ's that flavored an army. That synergized with units.

Thoughts?

The weapons parts are interesting, even though i think the buff of the Splinter Cannon will come from Splinter racks giving it twinlinked. The liquifier i have no idea what it will become.

Concerning assaulting from vehicles, i had formulated the idea that our troops could automaticaly disembark from a vehicle after that vehicle succeeds a charge. But yeah, charging after disembarking is another way to put it.

Concerning HQs, it gets a bit tougher. Basically there is 3 forms of useful HQs :
- The token HQ
- The multiplier HQ
- The killer HQ

In 7th edition our great strength (lol) was that we had the best token HQ (Lhameaen), but it became an elite. So now we're stuck with expensive HQs (so non-token) that are not very multiplying, and not killy at all.

Your wish would be for more killy HQs. I'd like to see all 3 options handed for us :
- More force multiplying for the 3 faction HQs
- More killiness for the 3 standard HQs
- Access to token HQs (so i'd like the Court to become HQ again).

As a token HQ, we could have

Agent of Vects 20

start in reserve. The turn it arrive, place it anywhere on the field. If within 12'' of a vehicle, that vehicle won't be able to move or fire this turn.


Agent of Malys 20

start in reserve. The turn it arrive, place it anywhere on the field. If within 12'' of a psycker, that psycker won't be able to manifest or deny a power for a turn

Something i'd really like to see in our codex is some good offensive power given to the wyches, but through a unique way. Not increased ap (would be cool, but kinda bland) or better strength, but through an ability that could allow them to drown the enemy in attacks.

I mentionned the other day the ability to generate 2 extra hits for every 6 to hit (like Tesla weaponry, but in cc).

I had another alternative idea, that would transform the wyches into guardmen butchers : "When they attack an enemy that has WS4+, they each gain one extra attack. When they attack an enemy that has WS5+, 6+ or no WS at all, they each gain 2 extra attacks."

Suddenly you got troops that remain unimpressive against Marines and orkz, but send 5 of them against 10 T'au warriors, and they will massacre them like the fish-cattle they are.

Named HQs are nice and all, but, at the very least, I want the options to be able to construct a formidable generic HQ, as they were in 3rd edition, or a cheaper HQ if I'd rather spend those points elsewhere, er.. also as they were in 3rd edition.

Mppqlmd wrote:

Something i'd really like to see in our codex is some good offensive power given to the wyches, but through a unique way. Not increased ap (would be cool, but kinda bland) or better strength, but through an ability that could allow them to drown the enemy in attacks.

I mentionned the other day the ability to generate 2 extra hits for every 6 to hit (like Tesla weaponry, but in cc).

I had another alternative idea, that would transform the wyches into guardmen butchers : "When they attack an enemy that has WS4+, they each gain one extra attack. When they attack an enemy that has WS5+, 6+ or no WS at all, they each gain 2 extra attacks."

Suddenly you got troops that remain unimpressive against Marines and orkz, but send 5 of them against 10 T'au warriors, and they will massacre them like the fish-cattle they are.

Mppqlmd, I know you've seen my (many...) comments regarding genestealers, given how ridiculous their stats and abilities are; but I really like to use them as the test for what GW is willing to do for a unit.

I like the general concept of your wyche improvement, but even in the that circumstance, our wyches are at S3 with 3 attacks at best, and that's contingent upon the WS of the enemy, meaning we are still super weak against other armies' standard melee units.

I would like to see:
1. Our Wyche attack characteristic raised to a standard 2 attacks
2. Hekatarii blade improvement of S+1
3. "No-Escape" becomes auto. No roll-off.
4. Allow units to charge move and charge off of a transport


Rest of my wishlist:
Transports:
1. Increase their capacity by 1
2. Allow auras to be utilized while within a raider
3. Improve the base durability with
4. Additional addons (this could really help us customize based on the specific use)

Weaponry:
I think the quickest way to summarize this is: we don't have access to cost-efficient AP weaponry.
We also don't have access to standard load-outs that allow us to combat mobs of S3 enemies.
...I want both addressed. We have access to great weaponry for bigger units, but our weaponry is still lacking.

Melee weapons need a rework too.

HQs:
Where to begin? Nothing of substance. I'll take anything of substance. Auras that matter? An HQ that can move 12 - 14"? MAYBE something that can hold its own in combat?

Point reductions all around.

SushiBoy013 wrote:

I like the general concept of your wyche improvement, but even in the that circumstance, our wyches are at S3 with 3 attacks at best, and that's contingent upon the WS of the enemy, meaning we are still super weak against other armies' standard melee units.

Why, if we implement the suggestion from MppQlmd we would have 2 or 3 attacks base (depending on the drugs) +1 vs guards +2 vs fish and against some vehicles even +3
Which means a maximum of 6 attacks with in most cases being 2/3 vs marine eq and 3/4 vs non melee/elite oriented armies.

Mppqlmd wrote:

I had another alternative idea, that would transform the wyches into guardmen butchers : "When they attack an enemy that has WS4+, they each gain one extra attack. When they attack an enemy that has WS5+, 6+ or no WS at all, they each gain 2 extra attacks."

Barring any other changes, and with the +1A or +1S drug, your 'guardsman butchers' kill 0.89 guardsmen, ie less than half their points cost.

Your idea might work better if, instead of boosting attacks, you boost AP based on the difference in WS. -1AP for each point of difference in WS for example. But Wyches need so much more than that to make them even viable in assault, let alone good at it.

I'm getting 1.1 dead conscript per phase (5 S3 AP- attacks, not counting Hydra gaunts, and not counting the WS2+ from turn 3), per wych. So 2.2 dead conscript per turn. For 9pts that's not bad. Definitly niche, but not bad.

Mppqlmd wrote:

I'm getting 1.1 dead conscript per phase (5 S3 AP- attacks, not counting Hydra gaunts, and not counting the WS2+ from turn 3), per wych. So 2.2 dead conscript per turn. For 9pts that's not bad. Definitly niche, but not bad.

I was using Guardsmen rather than Conscripts but even taking into account their reduced profile, the +1A drug, +1 to hit from turn 3 and a nearby Succubus, you're still just about getting half your points value back in dead CONSCRIPTS and it does nothing at all against anything with WS3+ or better. So you become slightly less awful against blobs and see no improvement at all against actual close combat troops. Wyches need much, much more than that if we're going to start seeing them on the table again.

Considering how hard it is to return your points when targeting conscripts (because they have an incredible defense/cost ratio), it's a good result IMO. Sure it's niche, but it's a niche we struggle with, so having a unit dedicated to blob killing wouldn't be a bad idea.

This idea was mainly motivated by the fact that a niche role is better than no role at all (where wyches currently stand). But sure, if they give 3A, AP-1 and S4 as a standard profile for wyches (not facturing drugs), i'd roll with it

So basically make wyches assault marines

Yup. T3 6+ save assault marines.

Really, Wyches should probably be designed to be anti-melee specialists. That is where their invulnerable save is most valuable after all.

Why do Wyches need a niche beyond "good at close combat"? I wouldn't even mind them getting a points increase if they turned into our equivalent of Genestealers.

Burnage wrote:

Why do Wyches need a niche beyond "good at close combat"? I wouldn't even mind them getting a points increase if they turned into our equivalent of Genestealers.

My take (which is worth what it is worth) is that when you flesh out units for a game that has over one hundred different units, you have to be a bit more specific than "good at close combat", otherwise your gameplay is going to be veeeeery repetitive and boring.

That's why Warhammer has profiles split into a multitude of stats. What does "good at close combat mean" ? Lots of attacks ? Good strength ? ? Good AP ? Mortal wounds in cc ? Unique special rules ?

Wyches, according to the way i read their fluff, have no reason to have a good strength (even S4 is hard to justify). They can't have CC poisoned weaponry (because they need to do something different from wracks and kabs), and they are not howling banshees/incubi, so they can't specialize in bringing huge AP to the table (although AP-1 would be fine for them).

This leaves them with 2 things to shine in CC : number of attacks (which would specialize them into Horde killing), and special rules. They already have some special rules, that can get some work (Invulnerable against pistols, and more reliability on "No escape") but it won't really buff their damage output. That's why, IMO, they just need to get more attacks, and/or special rules giving them bonus attacks ("Death to the false emperor" equivalent, that would combo perfectly with the turn 3 PfP chart).

I agree with Mppqlmd - Wyches should drown the enemy in an unholy number of paper cuts.

I don't see any reason that wyches shouldn't keep their current profile, but get buffed up to Ork boy level numbers of attacks. Wyches getting the potential to gain 4-5 attacks each would really do wonders for the unit. I go so far as to propose they should reliably have 4 each, 5 with combat drugs.

Or, if they are going to sacrifice offensive potential, they need to have a much more reliable No Escape rule, considering how bloody easy it is for the unit they're engaged with to fall back and turn your relatively expensive squad into mince meat.

Mppqlmd wrote:

Burnage wrote:

Why do Wyches need a niche beyond "good at close combat"? I wouldn't even mind them getting a points increase if they turned into our equivalent of Genestealers.

My take (which is worth what it is worth) is that when you flesh out units for a game that has over one hundred different units, you have to be a bit more specific than "good at close combat", otherwise your gameplay is going to be veeeeery repetitive and boring.

That's why Warhammer has profiles split into a multitude of stats. What does "good at close combat mean" ? Lots of attacks ? Good strength ? ? Good AP ? Mortal wounds in cc ? Unique special rules ?

Wyches, according to the way i read their fluff, have no reason to have a good strength (even S4 is hard to justify). They can't have CC poisoned weaponry (because they need to do something different from wracks and kabs), and they are not howling banshees/incubi, so they can't specialize in bringing huge AP to the table (although AP-1 would be fine for them).

This leaves them with 2 things to shine in CC : number of attacks (which would specialize them into Horde killing), and special rules. They already have some special rules, that can get some work (Invulnerable against pistols, and more reliability on "No escape") but it won't really buff their damage output. That's why, IMO, they just need to get more attacks, and/or special rules giving them bonus attacks ("Death to the false emperor" equivalent, that would combo perfectly with the turn 3 PfP chart).

I don't disagree that our wyche's strength should stay the same..but that doesn't mean their weaponry cannot add a +1S. I'm fine with our Wyches niche being high attack #...but GW has established that 3-4 attacks is standard for a 12 point model (genestealers), so us only getting a 2-3 attack bump still leaves us lacking (comparatively) in the Toughness, Attack, Leadership, and ability categories. I don't want to be carbon copy of genestealers, but its hard not to use them as the example when they're superior in literally every way.

Seeing as this has become a Wyche wishlisting thread now...

I'd like to see them a Str 3, 2 att base. BloodBrides get 3 att base
I'd like their basic blades to be +1 attack when fighting with them
I'd like Their special weapons to be more distinct, as we have all discussed before. 2 per 5 taken. BloodBrides should be 4 per 5.

Their No-retreat should be a 3+ to work. Bloodbrides need a 2+

Inv should work vs pistols in CC

Additional special rules:
Fury of Blades: Any 6's to Hit generate an extra attack - can't generate more in this fashion

Killing blow. Each wych may, before rolling to hit, elect to trade 1 attack for a -1 ap boost, at a max of -3

Finally, I want them to be able and take a drug that lets the advance and charge. Not really a Wyche improvement but one that will benefit potentially all wyche units

Should Bloodbrides get more rules or weapons than Wyches? After all, they are almost 50% more expensive for +1 attack.

FuelDrop wrote:

Should Bloodbrides get more rules or weapons than Wyches? After all, they are almost 50% more expensive for +1 attack.

I don't see any reason they shouldn't have the trueborn treatment.

That being said, I'd like to see Wych special weapons all have a functional role within the unit - Perhaps the shardnet and impaler gives a -1 to hit Wyches in CC for example, or maybe a +1 to the "No Escape" roll off.

I may be the dissenting opinion here, but I think very little of our wyches currently. I think most of what is being suggested is a moderate improvement on a poor choice. I don't think it is too much to hope for lofty improvements.

This is a wishlist thread, after all!

I think the problem with lofty suggestions is you need to consider at the end of the day, a wych is still only 9 points. Personally that makes me hesitate to suggest massive sweeping changes, since I don't think Wyches are as poor a choice as others seem to think...

But then at the same time, I draw the comparison to an Ork boy, who is more survivable, virtually immune to moral, can easily get 6 S4 attacks on the charge, and can advance and charge when near a Warboss. All the while costing 2/3 the price...

Wyches do need changes, but I think they can be accomplished without crossing into the realms of ridiculousness; my greatest wish is to not feel like I'm going to automatically lose or be massively hamstrung if I build a list centered around wracks and wyches.

My suggestions for Wyches are outlined below:

Attack characteristic increases:
Wych: 2A
Hekatrix: 3A
Bloodbride: 3A
Syren: 4A
Succubus: 7A
Lelith: 9A

A change to the wording of No Escape to include "a draw is considered a loss for your opponent for the purposes of this roll off."

Exploding Attacks of some form: Lethal Encore: Any melee attack from this unit that hits on a 6+ is considered as 2 successful hits.
This minimalisticly increases our attack output, and stacks with our turn 3 PfP.

Some weapon changes:
Wych Knife: AP-1, that is all.

Hekatari Blade: AP-2, Remove the extra attack bonus.

Syren Blade: AP-2, D2.

Hydra Gauntlets: AP-2, D3 extra Attacks, reroll failed wound rolls.

Razorflails: AP-2, make 3 hit rolls rather than 1 for each attack with this weapon.

Shardnet and Impaler: S+1, AP-2, when making No Escape rolls for this unit, you may add 1 to your roll for each model in this unit equipped with a Shardnet and Impaler.

Archite Glaive: 2 profiles. Select 1 at the beginning of each Fight Phase.
Heavy Handed: S+2, AP-3, D2, -
Thousand Cuts: SU, AP-3, D1, when fighting with this profile, you may make 3 hit rolls rather than one for each attack made with this weapon.

Barber Hair: SU, AP-2, D1, Lelith Hesperax may make D6 additional attacks with this weapon each fight phase. You may add 2 to your No Escape rolls for Lelith Hesperax.

The Piercing Blades: 2 profiles, pick one at the start of each Fight Phase.
SU, AP-4, D1, this weapon always wounds on a roll of 2+.
SU, AP-2, D1, this weapon always wounds on a 2+, you may make 3 hit rolls for each attack made with this profile, rather than 1.

And then a general unit composition change:

Wyches: 1 Hekatrix and 4-19 Wyches. For every 5 models in the unit, one model may exchange their Wych Knife and Splijter Pistol, or Hekatari Blade and Splinter Pistol for an item from the Wych Cult Weapons list. Other Wargear as normal.

Bloodbrides: 1 Syren and 2-9 Bloodbrides. Any Hekatari Blade or Syren Blade may be exchanged for an item from the Wych Cult Weapons list. (They keep their pistols). Other Wargear as normal.

@Ikol I actually really like your very comprehensive breakdown! I could get behind all of that!


On a seperate note for the wishlist...I would love to see some sort of invl. save on our incubi.