And here is our codex...

Count Adhemar wrote:

Silverglade wrote:

I'm with Dark Elf Dave on this one.   Can we stop complaining about the troop capacity in our vehicles?

They have been the 5 and 10 since 5th edition (perhaps longer, but I didn't play them back then).

True, but we also had certain units (Wracks, Mandrakes, Trueborn, Incubi, probably others) with smaller minimum unit sizes so you could fit them in a Venom with a character.

Quote :

And as far back as 5th ed, they did not have access to a bike or a skyboard.

Baron Sathonyx says hello.

My understanding of the rules was that in matched play you can play one under strength unit so on the occasion you would like to pick a 4 man unit that is still an option. I may be wrong sorry.

Also I tried my best to point out the downsides to having smaller than 10 man squads to make space for a HQ and I do agree there are certainly downsides outside of picking the Court...but I still don't believe these are terrible downsides and I don't believe the problem is as bad as people make out.

It would be really interesting to talk about the options people feel we don't have and how that is going to impact the way they play the game. So for example people seem pissed that Reavers will hardly ever benefit from their HQ aura. Legitimate problem I guess...especially if you were going to spam Reavers. I doubt this is a game changer to the average DE game.

I was never intending on using a Court for my Archon but now I am...in fact I was never a fan of the Court but I have warmed to the idea.

Yes we all want wing/skyboard/jetbike options for our characters. Yes it would be massively helpful for making our characters and giving us options. Yes we all get that 3rd edition was some glorious era for several armies, apparently ours as well but those days are gone, move on man. I don't mean to sound harsh but the endless cries about returning to 3rd edition options for characters are getting old, it's 5 editions later and GW isn't going to give us those specific options. Even though I also wanted those options pre-codex, I knew there was no chance it was going to happen given GW's trend to move away from giving us options that don't have specific models.

Far better to discuss how to best fit characters into a raider/venom without interrupting the infantry unit it will be sharing space with, or as I often do just grab an extra venom for your characters, as they aren't too expensive now usually not an issue for me.

Silverglade wrote:

Can we stop complaining about the troop capacity in our vehicles?

You know, I don't agree. Yes, the new codex is fantastic and cool, and about time too, to the point that hundreds of people are suddenly discovering that they've always loved Dark Eldar and they're flying (ha!) off the shelves. As far as GW is concerned then, great job! Nevertheless, it does have a glaring flaw. Should we ignore that flaw because everything else is great? What's the point of speaking up only to express that everything is fine, and how are they supposed to know that there's a problem if no one points it out?

I do think we might tone down the anger and bitterness, as it looks a bit silly when we've just got a pretty good codex, but the complaint is fair.

Silverglade wrote:

And as far back as 5th ed, they did not have access to a bike or a skyboard.

As far back as 3rd though, they did.

For fluff wise I think you can argue both sides. Yes, it might seem stupid to give Archon's wings or a jetbike. Why would an proud Archon fly or ride in those? Seems pretty dangerous and reckless. At the same time it can be argued that Archons could take wings if she/he desires so.
In the book path of the dark eldar (which is the 3 books in one) you even have an Archon (I wanna say Maximilian?) who is very fond of all flying things. I cant remember did he actually even have wings of his own but could see someone like him doing just that.
Dark eldar do get bored quite easily, even Archons. Maybe it is risky to want to ride in a reaver jetbike but what isn't dangerous in a life on an Drukhari. If you get my point.
I think you have good arguments both sides of the matter regarding the subject.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I was never intending on using a Court for my Archon but now I am...in fact I was never a fan of the Court but I have warmed to the idea.

Well, it's about the only thing left that doesn't have a minimum squad size of 5 models.

But yeah, I've become more interested in the Court as well.

Lhamaeans or Medusae seem like they could be decent as suicide units, accompanied by a secondary (non-Warlord) Archon.

I also saw someone suggest elsewhere that Lhamaeans could be used as slot-fillers. So, if you've got 4 Grotesques and a character on a Raider, you could put a Lhamaean in the spare slot. All going well, she can join in the fun. If the transport is shot down she can die in place of a more valuable Grotesque.

Anyway, I'm planning to use a Poison Tongue Archon with Soul Seeker as my Warlord, so I've been wondering about including some Sslyth with him in a venom (since their weapons have the same range). They can sit back and shoot initially, and then wade into melee later on.

The thing is, I don't know if having 4 Sslyth is excessive for this. Are they worth it? Or would it be better to just have a couple of them?

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Far better to discuss how to best fit characters into a raider/venom without interrupting the infantry unit it will be sharing space with, or as I often do just grab an extra venom for your characters, as they aren't too expensive now usually not an issue for me.

Until your Venom explodes and you roll those 1's. If only you could have a few gimps in the Venom with your character to pull on their red security jersey and take one for the team!

But I actually agree that asking for wings, jetbikes etc was a non-starter as, unless you're Imperium, you're not allowed units without models (bitter much, moi?). As I mentioned earlier though, the transport capacity and/or weapon options and/or unit sizes could easily have been played around with and would not have required any new models.

I think the major gripe is that HQ's are supposed to be useful, and ours just aren't.

A Company Commander can double the fire output of nearby guardsmen for a reasonable cost. A Company Commander adds a worthwhile bonus to the army.

Rowboat provides a large boost to everything nearby. Girlyman is a worthwhile investment in an army.

An Archon...takes up a slot in a transport, reducing the occupants damage output by limiting the number of weapons they can take? That's pretty much the exact opposite of what HQ's are supposed to do.

I'd argue that it's even worse now than it was in 7th. At least back then your HQ's could serve as No-Scatter Deepstrike vector for any unit you could fit him into. Simply, there's no bonus that our HQ's offer, outside of a Black Heart Spearhead, and a footslogging Coven.

And I think that the best counter-argument that has been given is that our HQ's don't cause detrimental harm is a little telling of their use, or lack thereof.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

The thing is, I don't know if having 4 Sslyth is excessive for this. Are they worth it? Or would it be better to just have a couple of them?

4 sounds like a lot considering they have the same firepower of a scourge for over twice the price, I'd say 2 ssylths maximum plus maybe a leahamean because they are nice and cheap pts wise.

Our characters are definetly not useless. Yes they are not the great force multipliers a company commander is, but living muse black heart archon has a great reroll aura. Or you can take a different approach and go for a djinn blade archon, something I'm rather enjoying so far with the famed savagery trait for flayed skull. 8 attack s5 at ap-3 d3 damage? Now that's a solid combat character.

@ Count Adhemar: yeah exploding transports are no fun for characters, but that's well worth the cp reroll so I'll take my 1 in 36 chance. Plus my opponent's rarely focus on the transport with my archon since he's not a big threat, but I suspect once they start facing my djinn blade archon that's not gonna last..[/quote]

I disagree that our HQs are still lacking in usefulness.

A footslogging Black Heart Archon with Writ of the Living Muse creates a hell of a gun line.

Succubi can throw out a great amount of damage for a ~50 point model.

Haemonculi still provide the same solid toughness aura that they did, while also being capable of dealing a nice volume of mortal wounds with the right build.

They're not the best in the game, but they're entirely useful and don't feel like nearly as much of a tax as they did in the Index.

TheBaconPope wrote:

I think the major gripe is that HQ's are supposed to be useful, and ours just aren't.

A Company Commander can double the fire output of nearby guardsmen for a reasonable cost. A Company Commander adds a worthwhile bonus to the army.

Rowboat provides a large boost to everything nearby. Girlyman is a worthwhile investment in an army.

An Archon...takes up a slot in a transport, reducing the occupants damage output by limiting the number of weapons they can take? That's pretty much the exact opposite of what HQ's are supposed to do.

I'd argue that it's even worse now than it was in 7th. At least back then your HQ's could serve as No-Scatter Deepstrike vector for any unit you could fit him into. Simply, there's no bonus that our HQ's offer, outside of a Black Heart Spearhead, and a footslogging Coven.

And I think that the best counter-argument that has been given is that our HQ's don't cause detrimental harm is a little telling of their use, or lack thereof.

That's a good point.

I think the issue is that our HQs' buffs are limited both in the units they can affect, and then again in the units they can reach with their limited mobility.

If I take a SM Commander, his aura can buff anything in my army.
If I take an Archon, he can only buff the Court, Kabalite Warriors, Transports and Ravagers. But then, if any of those models are in one of our transports, he can't buff them at all. Nor can he buff them if he's in a transport (even if they're occupying the same transport).
If I take a Succubus, then she can only buff Wyches, Reavers, Hellions and Razorwings. Except that her buff is useless on Razorwings and she's not fast enough to keep up with Reavers or Hellions (unless she takes a transport . . . which negates her aura).

I don't know, it just seems like our auras really weren't well thought out.

I think it's a shame they didn't go with something like this for the Archon (instead of his aura): 'At the beginning of your shooting phase, pick a unit within 18" of the Archon (or within 18" of a transport he's embarked on). Until the end of turn, friendly Drukhari units reroll hit rolls of 1 against the chosen unit.'

I can't claim credit for that idea, but it seems like it would be much more sensible than an aura that barely affects anything and which he can't use when aboard his only mode of transport.


It's frustrating because HQs are my favourite part of any army. It really feels like the designers spent a great deal of time and effort making flavourful artefacts and warlord traits, but then just skipped over their base abilities.

Anyway, I'm sorry, I'll try to stop harping on about this.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

4 sounds like a lot considering they have the same firepower of a scourge for over twice the price, I'd say 2 ssylths maximum plus maybe a leahamean because they are nice and cheap pts wise.

Okay, I'll try that. Thanks.

Can I ask what you think of Medusae? I like the idea but I'm a bit wary of having to disembark them within 8" of their target (along with an Archon) I order to get the rerolls.

I really don't think the character aura issue is as big as you're making it out to be.

Archons can provide an excellent aura for ravagers, especially with the black heart relic. Yeah they can't grant rerolls to stuff in transports, but I don't find that a big issue because I rarely bunch up kabalites in raiders in one area for an aura anyway. Plus I'm probably going to be a flayed skull purist so there's that too..

Red grief succubus with the movement drug can almost keep pace with hellions, especially first turn if she jumps out of a transport, and she'll never have a problem buffing wyches. Reavers yeah that's a different story, no one can keep up with reavers, but the succubus is such a bargain anyway for 50pts even without considering the aura.

Haemonculus aura is still excellent and coven units can actually footslog better.

And all of that isn't even taking into account what awesome melee combatants we can make our characters into now. Sure imperial guard commanders are excellent force multipliers, but you can't make them 8 s5 attacks on the charge with ap-3 d3 damage can you? It's a tradeoff, and with the help of relics/traits we can make excellent character builds. Sure you're probably only taking 2 relics 3 traits max per list, so some characters will be a waste but hey it's not all bad. Plus i'm just very happy to have an archon that can actually beat up a space marine captain.

Medusae seem like nice dakka but honestly I think I'd prefer mandrakes. Half the shots sure, but add in deep strike, mortal wounds, much harder to kill and actual decent assault ability and they sound so much better, and for less pts. Every time I'd take a medusae I'd just think of mandrakes instead. Probably will stick to just 1 -2 ssylths and a lahamean for my court.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Archons can provide an excellent aura for ravagers, especially with the black heart relic.

I don't think it speak well of them that Ravagers are basically the only unit that gets brought up with them.

What if you want to buff something that isn't a Ravager?

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

And all of that isn't even taking into account what awesome melee combatants we can make our characters into now. Sure imperial guard commanders are excellent force multipliers, but you can't make them 8 s5 attacks on the charge with ap-3 d3 damage can you?

Serious question - which of our HQs can get 8 S5 AP-3 d3 damage attacks?

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Medusae seem like nice dakka but honestly I think I'd prefer mandrakes. Half the shots sure, but add in deep strike, mortal wounds, much harder to kill and actual decent assault ability and they sound so much better, and for less pts. Every time I'd take a medusae I'd just think of mandrakes instead. Probably will stick to just 1 -2 ssylths and a lahamean for my court.

Good point. Yeah, Mandrakes are a better option.

Flayed skull archon with famed savagery trait and the djinn blade. Pretty beastly. Even made a nice little conversion for my famed savagery archon. Granted that's only one archon and you need to take multiple in every list, but hey you can't make every single archon with such a high damage output. That's the only archon build that I think can reach that level of awesome attack power, but there's at least two builds for succubi to make them equally awesome.

Eh I suppose archons should be more useful for buffing base kabalite warriors, technically the aura certainly should work for units in transports but o well. I'm content enough with being able to make one really awesome archon, and the other will probably just be a super budget archon with a venom blade and splinter pistol chilling with the ravagers.

I'm a little tired of the Ravager example. Yes, it'll allow for a substantial damage boost for Ravagers. But it requires it's own detachment and your free relic.

But, yes, that's a good use for an Archon! Great! Now what do you do with the others? Because if you're running a Kabalite Battalion (Not an unreasonable assumption, if you've already filled one of your three detachments in a Spearhead), you still have to use another two of the things.

Do you put them in a party Venom? Because loading them up with some Sslyth and tossing it forward comes to 298 Points. That's a fairly substantial investment for not a lot of melee return.

I just think it's a little disingenuous to point to a very specific build meant for a very specific function and then proclaim that validates what needs to be a general purpose HQ.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Flayed skull archon with famed savagery trait and the djinn blade.  

Ah, okay. Hmm, that is pretty nasty.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Even made a nice little conversion for my famed savagery archon.

Pics?

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Granted that's only one archon and you need to take multiple in every list, but hey you can't make every single archon with such a high damage output.

Granted, but that's the thing, isn't it - you need to use your Relic and Warlord trait to have a good HQ. I just wish they were a bit better by themselves.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Eh I suppose archons should be more useful for buffing base kabalite warriors, technically the aura certainly should work for units in transports but o well. I'm content enough with being able to make one really awesome archon, and the other will probably just be a super budget archon with a venom blade and splinter pistol chilling with the ravagers.

Regarding the Ravager thing, I'd prefer my Archons not be stuck acting like an IG Master of Ordnance.

Especially when I only own 1 Ravager.

I do see where both of you are coming from. Archon chilling back with the ravagers hardly seems to fit the role they should be fulfilling, they should be in the middle of the fray leading their kabalite warriors, which doesn't really work because they do absolutely nothing for all your kabalites packed in raiders. It's more so that I'm just willing to accept having one backfield archon, I'm not happy about it but o well at least he's somewhat useful. It would be a lot more bearable if the archon was a nice cheap 50pts like the succubus, but 70+ is getting into the more expensive range than I'd like on a character I have to take 2-3 times.

Honestly what it will probably come down to for me is I will try to get away with using just 2 archons, one being my fun djinn blade flayed skull archon and the other being budgeted as possible with a venom blade. It's not ideal, his ability would be better if it could somehow boost units in transports but it is what it is, gotta try and make the best of it.

There's a picture of my archon up in my project log: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t16904-asvadir-s-project-log#216098 Still reconsidering the head but otherwise good to go.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

I do see where both of you are coming from. Archon chilling back with the ravagers hardly seems to fit the role they should be fulfilling, they should be in the middle of the fray leading their kabalite warriors, which doesn't really work because they do absolutely nothing for all your kabalites packed in raiders.

Yeah. It might not be so bad if the Archon wasn't the only HQ choice we had for Kabal. It's not like we can take the Archon as a backfield HQ and then a different HQ to support Kabalites or such.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

It's more so that I'm just willing to accept having one backfield archon, I'm not happy about it but o well at least he's somewhat useful. It would be a lot more bearable if the archon was a nice cheap 50pts like the succubus, but 70+ is getting into the more expensive range than I'd like on a character I have to take 2-3 times.

Rather than just getting a price cut, I'd rather see him be made more useful (so that you might actually want multiples of him in your list).

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

There's a picture of my archon up in my project log: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t16904-asvadir-s-project-log#216098  Still reconsidering the head but otherwise good to go.

Love the pose. Can I ask where you got the rock piece that he's jumping off?

it's a SHame he has to Run alongsidE Dark elDar vehiclEs foR years now. So it's not really a new situation.

CptMetal wrote:

it's a SHame he has to Run alongsidE Dark elDar vehiclEs foR years now. So it's not really a new situation.

Sure. But if a bridge has been broken for 5 years, it doesn't mean no one wants to see it fixed.

EDIT: Is the Shredder really still bad as well? I thought it was supposed to be pretty good now.

I know it has stiff competition with the Blaster doing d6 damage, but I thought the Shredder looked decent at least.

Maybe on gunboats (since they'll be targeting infantry anyway)? Or is it still better to take Blasters for versatility?

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Yeah. It might not be so bad if the Archon wasn't the only HQ choice we had for Kabal. It's not like we can take the Archon as a backfield HQ and then a different HQ to support Kabalites or such.

Yeah it would have been nice to get maybe a dracon level character, go with the trend of space marines getting a lieutenant but o well.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Rather than just getting a price cut, I'd rather see him be made more useful (so that you might actually want multiples of him in your list).

True that would have been ideal. 1, maybe 2 archons in the list is fine, but above that they become a nuisance to take. At least everything else in the list is cheap.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Love the pose. Can I ask where you got the rock piece that he's jumping off?

Thanks man. His legs are actually from the scourge kits, so the legs jumping off the rock are one of the scourge pair of legs.

I tried to 2 shredders in my game on Saturday, didn't get much mileage out of them but that was just one try. I think on paper at least they are solid, d6 shots makes them very viable and the ap-1 makes the damage stick. Really want to try out shredder scourges, though I don't own any yet.[/quote]
[/quote]

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Yeah it would have been nice to get maybe a dracon level character, go with the trend of space marines getting a lieutenant but o well.

True that would have been ideal. 1, maybe 2 archons in the list is fine, but above that they become a nuisance to take. At least everything else in the list is cheap.

It's sad because I really do like the idea of having an army that's basically several small armies, each with its own leader.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Thanks man. His legs are actually from the scourge kits, so the legs jumping off the rock are one of the scourge pair of legs.

Ah, of course. I can't believe I didn't recognise them.

They work exceptionally well for a HQ.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

I tried to 2 shredders in my game on Saturday, didn't get much mileage out of them but that was just one try. I think on paper at least they are solid, d6 shots makes them very viable and the ap-1 makes the damage stick. Really want to try out shredder scourges, though I don't own any yet.

Hmm, that's unfortunate. Maybe CptMetal is right and Blasters are still the way to go.

Oh well, I imagine I'll be having a game soon so I'll try them out then.

Interesting that you mention Scourges, though, as they're the unit I really wouldn't want Shredders on.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Interesting that you mention Scourges, though, as they're the unit I really wouldn't want Shredders on.

I'll be trying them out as screen clearers today, will see how they go.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Yeah it would have been nice to get maybe a dracon level character, go with the trend of space marines getting a lieutenant but o well.

True that would have been ideal. 1, maybe 2 archons in the list is fine, but above that they become a nuisance to take. At least everything else in the list is cheap.

It's sad because I really do like the idea of having an army that's basically several small armies, each with its own leader.

I mean we can do that fairly easily now with alliance of agony, just not as easily with a few archons.

On the topic of shredders I wouldn't discount them so easily. They fulfill a completely different role from blasters, and we don't need blasters on absolutely every unit that can take blasters. Worth having the extra anti-infantry firepower, especially against something like guardsmen level stats which poison doesn't deal with all that well unless you have a ton of it.

CptMetal wrote:

it's a SHame he has to Run alongsidE Dark elDar vehiclEs foR years now. So it's not really a new situation.

How about just give us a sky chariot that has a 6 inch buff field, make it a mini ravager with a better save! How many would buy this model?