Tourny list 1250 Point

Hey everyone , what improvements do you think this list could use ?
I'm finding it hard to guess how many Dark Lances I should have at this points level and unfortunately, I don't have any idea of what il be up against as it's at scene I haven't played at before.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Flayed Skull

+ HQ +

Archon: Blast Pistol, Hatred Eternal, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, The Obsidian Veil, Venom Blade, Warlord (Archon)

Archon: Blast Pistol, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Venom Blade

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors
. 6x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Shredder
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Shredder
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors
. 6x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Kabalite Warriors
. 6x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

+ Dedicated Transport +

Raider: Disintegrator cannon

Raider: Dark Lance

Raider: Dark Lance

++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Drukhari) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment Attribute: Kabal of the Black Heart

+ Flyer +

Razorwing Jetfighter: Splinter Cannon
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter: Splinter Cannon
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter: Splinter Cannon
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

++ Total: [66 PL, 1250pts] ++

Solid list, I think were even stronger at lower pt games tbh, I'd personally drop the dark lances for more dissies on the ravager and raiders for more redundancy then either swap out the shredders for 2 more blasters to recover a bit of lance damage or splinter cannons on the razorwings, if it's highly competitive and objective based you'll be facing plenty of hordes.

Bard wrote:

Hey everyone , what improvements do you think this list could use ?
I'm finding it hard to guess how many Dark Lances I should have at this points level and unfortunately, I don't have any idea of what il be up against as it's at scene I haven't played at before.

The "right amount of Dark Lances" discussion has really gone by the wayside to my mind nowadays because there is no longer Armor Value to overcome, it's all just about dealing with toughness (generally very easy as few vehicles are packing better than an 8 ) and the ability to inflict a decent number of wounds.

This is one of the reasons I've been so strident in discussing the value of the Dissie over the Dark Lance, just to lay out the argument for you so you can consider it;

A Dark Lance, vs. a T8 vehicle with 3+ armor save.
1 shot = .6 hits = .3 wounds = 1.167 damage to the target on average.
(and just for sake of argument to clarify math - let's presume you always roll 4 damage - that would translate to 1.2 damage)

A Dissie, vs. a T8 vehicle with 3+ armor save.
3 shots = 2 hits = .667 wounds = .556 after saves = 1.11 damage


So what you're looking at there is that the Dissie does almost as well as the Dark Lance against a target that is arguably the optimal Dark Lance target. Even the presumed guarantee role of a 4 damage on the Dark Lance is shockingly close to what a Dissie can do on average.

Now, with that info in mind, here are a few other thoughts to consider;

The Dissie numbers will get overall better benefits than the Dark Lance if...
...the target has an invulnerable save.
...the target is horde infantry, like Orks or Guard
...the target is armored infantry, like Sphess Mahreens w. Rowboat Girlyman
...the target is a lighter vehicle, like bikes or skimmers
...you get re-rolls (like with an Archon near a Ravager)

Also, the Dissie is cheaper...for no apparent reason other than to try to make it an even better choice.

So, against heavy vehicles the Dissie is almost just as good, against vehicles with an invulnerable save the Dissie is better, and against pretty much everything else you could ever shoot at the Dissie is better (the lance is superior vs. some Super Heavy options, but for those I tend to suggest that's what Blasters are for)

Considering the meta tends to involve lots of infantry and also lists with lots of mech, having a superior all around TAC weapon becomes very valuable, hence why I suggest basically every single DL in a list should always become a Dissie.

Now to your list

Bard wrote:

Kabalite Warriors
. 6x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite warrior with Heavy Weapon: Splinter Cannon
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Shredder
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Shredder
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

I haven't really been a fan of gunboats since back in 3rd, but this is not a build I inherently dislike. I do tend to think that if you save points on Dark Lances by making them Dissies you could theoretically drop down your larger squads here to smaller squads with Blasters to give you a harder hitting option for when you need it, and to also allow other points to get freed up to probably allow you to buy an additional set of Warriors in a Transport, which I would suggest would more than make up for lost poison fire by trimming these squads.

That said, if you like this sort of build I don't think it's bad, it's a lot of firepower, just a little fragile and a bit of a big target.

Bard wrote:

Kabalite Warriors
. 6x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with special weapon: Blaster
. Sybarite: Splinter Rifle

Don't really see the point in the two extra bodies here. That could be 14 points put elsewhere to better purpose I feel.

Bard wrote:

Ravager: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

I think Ravagers are too damn good not to take more of (again, I'm eyeballing some of those points lavished on those Warrior Squads). Other than that I'll just mention Dissies

Bard wrote:

Raider: Disintegrator cannon

Raider: Dark Lance

Raider: Dark Lance

I think you know my thoughts here  

Bard wrote:

Razorwing Jetfighter: Splinter Cannon
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter: Splinter Cannon
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

Razorwing Jetfighter: Splinter Cannon
. 2 Disintegrator Cannons: 2x Disintegrator cannon

The Razorwing is a great buy.
I tend not to get splinter cannons myself, as I think that is an expensive upgrade for a very moderate uptick in firing power. I'd take shock prows on Raiders before I'd take s.cannons on a Razorwing (and since you have no Wyches, that says something). Again, it's not specifically bad, I'd just argue this is yet another place you could save some points and potentially add an entire extra unit, which would be overall better for damage output than the points spent here for a few extra pew-pew poison shots.

My thoughts, hope they help!
Thor.

Thanks for the responses , especially with how detailed they are. I think switching the dark lances would be more efficient now you explain the math behind it and trimming down the warriors could be a good option.
Much appreciated
Bard

Thor665 wrote:

A Dark Lance, vs. a T8 vehicle with 3+ armor save.
1 shot = .6 hits = .3 wounds = 1.167 damage to the target on average.
(and just for sake of argument to clarify math - let's presume you always roll 4 damage - that would translate to 1.2 damage)

A Dissie, vs. a T8 vehicle with 3+ armor save.
3 shots = 2 hits = .667 wounds = .556 after saves = 1.11 damage

Most tanks are t6 or 7 where the difference is a lot bigger.

1 shot = .6 hits = .4 wounds = 1.56 damage to the target on average
which is 40% increase
So while I am not saying dissies are bad (they still do 70% of the damage of a lance against tanks)
It does mean that when you face a lot of tanks having lances is a clear advantage (2 ravagers and a raider with lances deals as much damage as 3 ravagers and a raider with dissies). The downside is that if you face lists without tanks the dissies deal nearly 3 times as much damage.

|Meavar wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

A Dark Lance, vs. a T8 vehicle with 3+ armor save.
1 shot = .6 hits = .3 wounds = 1.167 damage to the target on average.
(and just for sake of argument to clarify math - let's presume you always roll 4 damage - that would translate to 1.2 damage)

A Dissie, vs. a T8 vehicle with 3+ armor save.
3 shots = 2 hits = .667 wounds = .556 after saves = 1.11 damage

Most tanks are t6 or 7 where the difference is a lot bigger.

1 shot = .6 hits = .4 wounds = 1.56 damage to the target on average
which is 40% increase
So while I am not saying dissies are bad (they still do 70% of the damage of a lance against tanks)
It does mean that when you face a lot of tanks having lances is a clear advantage (2 ravagers and a raider with lances deals as much damage as 3 ravagers and a raider with dissies). The downside is that if you face lists without tanks the dissies deal nearly 3 times as much damage.

I agree with you - it's why I said that Dissies were the superior TAC choice and Lances were only superior vs. heavy vehicles (and I'm sure certain Monsters if their saves and toughness are in a similar vein). The Dissie remains a vastly superior weapon vs. basically every other target in the game however, so being 70% as good versus the one thing Lances do better at is actually a serious indictment of choosing a lance over a Dissie,a nd why Blasters should be taken.

I agree that DC is a much better TAC weapon, but I've found it struggling against vehicles. The 5's and 6's just don't come up enough for me. Another thing that most of these comparisons are leaving out is the potential to reroll the damage on the DL (well on 1 of them at least). This alone leads me to think that having enough DL in your list to deal with a single vehicle at a time is a good idea.

I've adjusted my list to include 1 DL on each of my 3 Ravagers.

I field a lot of Blasters also. so maybe that's why I don't feel any pinch?
I've had Dissies wipe out Landraiders in a single turn pretty functionally though, so I'm still a full convert.