Vexator Mask vs. Counter-Offensive

Can the Counter-Offensive Stratagem be used to effectively nullify the Vexator Mask?

e.g. let's say that I charge several Ork units - including a Warboss - with a Haemonculus and 2 Grotesque units.

At the start of the fight phase, I use the Vexator Mask to make the Warboss fight last.

Once one of my charging units has fought, can my opponent use the Counter-Offensive stratagem to make his Warboss fight immediately?

No. You choose one of your ELIGIBLE units to fight. In this case, the warboss would be eligible only AFTER all other combats have occurred.
The Vexator mask is one of the best relics in the game.

Thank you. It came up in a game last night and I just wanted to check.

Not sure I agree with that answer actually.

Why is it different than how counter offensive normally works? If you didn't have a vexator mask, the warboss wouldn't be eligible to fight until all other charging attacks have occurred.

The counter offensive strat talks about selecting one of your eligible units (as you point out Skulnbonz). But what really makes a unit eligible or not eligible?

If your opponent's unit is impacted by the vexator mask, it effectively makes him fight last. But he is still eligible to fight.

You may very well be right. But I don't think it's that clear cut, and I think you'd be hard pressed to win an argument with an opponent who disagrees with the interpretation.

I find myself agreeing with Silverglade, that as written, this is ambiguous.

The relevant rules quotes:

Vexator Mask

Quote :

That unit cannot fight until all other units that are able to have done so.

Counter-Offensive

Quote :

This Stratagem is used right after an enemy unit that charged has fought. Select one of your own eligible units and fight with it next.

Fight Phase

Quote :

Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase. This includes all units, not just those controlled by the player whose turn it is. All units that charged this turn fight first. The player whose turn it is picks the order in which these units fight. After all charging units have fought, the players alternate choosing eligible units to fight with (starting with the player whose turn it is) until all eligible units on both sides have fought once each. No unit can be selected to fight more than once in each Fight phase. If one player runs out of eligible units, the other player completes all of their remaining fights, one unit after another.

The key to how this should be interpreted is what does 'eligible' mean?

A case could be made to say eligible means 'has charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit', which would allow the unit selected for the Vexator effect to use Counter-Offensive.

I think it makes more sense to say the target of the Vexator is only eligible after all other units have fought, but it isn't clear cut.

Quote :

select an enemy unit within 6" of the bearer. That unit
cannot fight until all other units that are able to have done so. If
the unit has an ability that allows it to fight first in the Fight phase,
it instead fights as if it did not have this ability

So again, NO he does not get to fight first even if he uses that stratagem.

Counter-offensive doesn't provide a fight first ability, so it wouldn't end up with the normal sequence if used against the Vexator mask.

I still see two possibilities:

1) the Vexator target cannot use Counter-offensive because it isn't eligible to fight until all other units have been selected to fight.

2) the Vexator target can use Counter-offensive (and would get to fight next) as it is eligible to fight in the Fight phase.

Option 1 makes more sense to me, which means I agree with you. However, if a TO decided to go the other way, I wouldn't be shocked.

If the second is true than the effect of vexator mask is useless isn't it? An argument could be made that it makes your opponent use CP to fight with that unit next, but, depending on the unit, they were going to anyway, like in the orks example given above, that player was more than likely going to intervene to get his warboss to attack next to one of the Grot units. This making the vexator mask completely pointless if it can be interrupted by the stratagem. And looking at the effect of the vexator mask it's worded in such a way that it could easily be interpreted as that unit isn't eligible to fight at all until all other units have done so (unless they have an "always attacks first ability), which to me says they can't be chosen by the stratagem at all because they aren't eligible for combat until all other units have fought.

Q: Can the Vexator Mask relic force a charging unit to attack
after all other units have done so?
A: Yes, unless that chosen unit has an ability that allows
it to fight first in the Fight phase, in which case it instead
fights as if it didn’t have that ability.

I think its clear, Counter-Offensive wont work, it doesnt say fight first on it.

Had a similar debate this weekend with a friend.   I was playing my blood angels army, and had the ability that makes my warlord "always fight first"

He played counter offensive after I had attacked with a different unit that had charged.   The discussion we were having was similar to this thread.  I argued that counter offensive didn't say "fights first", his counter was that it fell into the wording of "other similar ability"


We were really talking in circles as the wording wasn't clear enough for either of us to demonstrate to the other that our interpretation was definitively "right".

Our debate ultimately ended as it was clear in our particular scenario, that even if counter offensive was a "similar ability" to allow him to fight first, the rules for my warlord trait (and the vexator mask) would say that we alternate based on whose turn it was (in this case mine).


So in the scenario first laid out by soulless samurai, I would argue that even IF the counter offensive worked for the ork player. You would still attack first.