[1500 Points] Need help with perfecting my Heamonculus Coven

It's been years since I last played with my Haemonculus Coven. Out of curiosity I stepped into a GW store and learned about the changes the 8th edition rules and codex brought which retriggered my interest in playing with my Heamonculus Coven.

That being said, I'm a bit overwhelmed with all the new rules and possibilities, so I thought well maybe these guys from the Dark City want to throw in a helping hand. So below I'll just post the models I have in general and some basic wargear I gave them and, based on how I played a couple of years ago, I`ll add some info on how I think to use them.

Haemonculus 81 Points x2

First of all, I'm playing with the Prophets of Flesh. They seem like a good pick for a returning novice. As such the main Haemonculus is granted the Vexator Mask and I also assumed that the Master Artisan is probably the best choice in general, but please correct me if I'm wrong. While I've got 2 Haemonculi, I'm aware that only 1 may wield the Vexator Mask.

They`ll further be armed with a Liquifier Guns and surround themselves with a couple of Grotesque's which are also armed with Liquifier Guns. While I've learned that IC can no longer join a unit, they all will be Deep Striking into battle with the use of 1 Raider. Preferably planting them as close as possible to an unsuspecting enemy unit and Liquify Gun them to death.

Grotesques 131 Points x2

2 units of 3 Grotesques of which 2 carry a Liquifier Gun and 1 carries an Agoniser. I bought these models years ago and created them to visually carry these items. It's only now that apparently the one carrying the Agoniser could also have been carrying a 3rd Liquifier Gun next to his Agoniser. I no longer have the bits to represent this, so I guess I'm just stuck with a melee Grotesque (who used to be an Aberration in 7th edition).

Well, like mentioned; these guys are just chilling with the Haemonculus on the Raider until they can drop from Orbit and Liquify and Smash things to death. They`ll use the Raider to get around the table more quickly, especially now that the Raider might actually be a bit more durable.

Raider 88 Points x2

I opted to keep these low-cost-ish, even though I did take the Dark Lance over the Disintegrator Cannon. Shock Prow and Chain-Snares seemed like no-brainer due to the low cost. Should I also take Grisly Trophies? I can't remember if they are useful. I'm guessing in combination with the Phantasm (Torment) Grenade Launcher and the Distillers of Fear obsession very, very intersting right? But seeing how I'm playing Prophets of Flesh, I don't think I'm gonna pick them, but again, please correct me if I'm wrong.


Wracks 57 Points x2

Well, I've learned that I should consider buying a 3rd Wrack unit, because of the Battalion 5 Command Point bonus. The best I can do for now is take a Spearhead Detachment, because I have 5 Talos as I used to run the Corpsethief Claw formation, which is now sadly gone as well.

So the Wracks are just there because I need Troop choices and because they look cool and because I used to run them as Scarlet Epicureans with 2 Venoms and 1 Cronos. Now I`ll just plant them in the Venoms and maybe consider having them Deep Strike as well, but I'm not sure why.

I've armed both units with a Hexrifle and Ossefactor. The idea here is to just take potshots with Sniper-type rifles and the Splinter Cannon while flying away if they get in danger. Probably will use them to score objectives or something.

The acothysts aren't given any special melee weapons. Should I ?

Venom 67 Points x2

I just armed them with Chain-snares and that's pretty much it.

Cronos 70 Points x1

Well I remember these guys doing what is now represented by the Prophets of Flesh obsession, so I guess it's logical that the Spirit Probe now does something else. I still gave it a Spirit Probe though. Should I give it more wargear?

Probably gonna have this guy follow my 2 units of Talos around so they`ll survive hopefully a bit longer.

Talos 196 Points x2

Chain-flails and Haywire Blasters. Since as you might have noticed, I don't have any dedicated anti Vehicle units, my Talos will have to do the trick, I hope. They can still hit on a 3+, so it's not that unreliable I think.

Talos 318 Points

The other 3 Talos, a different unit, are armed with Heat Lances, so that they can take on the monsters AND vehicles.

So and that is pretty much my force. The actual point cost is 1432 for all of this, so I got some room left for improvement. I'm thinking maybe arm those Talosi with Talos Gauntlets? They do some pretty nasty, but I'm not sure if it's worth the cost.

Anyway, to make a very long post short, these are the models I have. I'm not planning on purchasing new models until I'm sure I enjoy the 8th edition and even then it would probably just be 5 more Wracks, 1 Venom and Urien Rakarth to stay in theme of the Heamonculus Prophets of Flesh coven.

I'd also appreciate some tips on how to smartly use new rules such as Stratagems or alternative Artefacts of Cruelty. Maybe I should consider Diabolical Soothsayer instead? I'm also not sure how to make my army "battle forged" so that I can get D3 command points back.

Actually there's a lot I don't know anymore haha.

Anyway, enough ranting. Looking forward to anybody that cares enough to give a reply

I care enough to reply  

Some thoughts for you:

Liquifiers are pretty bad.   Not the end of the world for the Grots that you've already modelled, but don't bother adding any more.   You'll also find that you can't arm as many with liquefier guns as you could in 7th edition anyway.  On top of that, you'll find that 3 Grots won't often get the job done for you.   I usually run at least 5-6 foot slogging in front of a Haemonculous.   (In prior editions, I went with 4 similar to you so they fit in the raider, but the 4+ invul save for being prophets of flesh usually gets you across the board)

For your Cronos, you'll find him just "ok".   He's pretty cheap for a reasonably tough monsterous creature, but I rarely field mine any longer.   When I do, I arm him with the spirit probe and the Spirit Vortex.

You'll find that the Taloi are your #1 best option.   Rarely is it worth going for the Talos gauntlets in my experience.   But I have taken from time to time for Anti Knight.    But you'll find that the macro scalpel often does the trick for you.

For sure Urien is a big plus.  He increases the strength of your Coven units.  So he definitely is a great force multiplier unit.   I generally run one Haemonculous with vexator mask, Electro-corrosive whip and Urien.  (In casual games, you likely will get away with representing Urien with your second Hamie unit).


So I would say, for sure get the 3rd wrack unit and Urien (even the Venom is optional) in terms of next purchases.

Prophets of Flesh is definitely the way to go, and go with diabolical soothsayer.   To be battle-forged, you just have to be all Drukhari units in your army and fit in one of the pre-existing formations, and ensure that your whole army shares one keyword (Like "Aeldari" for example) if you have more than one formation.

So you will be getting the D3 CP with what you've outlined above.  (and don't forget the 3 CP you get for being battle forged in the first place)

So I would say, for sure get the 3rd wrack unit and Urien (even the Venom is optional) in terms of next purchases.

Greetings Silverglade and thank you for replying

Some of my units say hello.

Silverglade wrote:

Liquifiers are pretty bad.  Not the end of the world for the Grots that you've already modelled, but don't bother adding any more.   You'll also find that you can't arm as many with liquefier guns as you could in 7th edition anyway.

Yeah I've seen more people bash the liquifier guns, especially because of their point cost. Still, when I drop out of the air and fire 3xD6 Liquifiers, it has a potential for 3-18 hits with a 1-3 Sv reduction. Still kinda cool, even though it's probably overpriced because of the "chance" factor.

But what do you mean by not being able to arm as many with Liquifier Guns as I could in the 7th? I do not see the 8th Drukhari codex mention any restriction as to how many can be given such a weapon.

Silverglade wrote:

On top of that, you'll find that 3 Grots won't often get the job done for you.   I usually run at least 5-6 foot slogging in front of a Haemonculous.   (In prior editions, I went with 4 similar to you so they fit in the raider, but the 4+ invul save for being prophets of flesh usually gets you across the board)

Well, I have 2 units. I could consider to merge these into 1 unit. Have 1 Haemonculus join the 5 Talos and 1 Cronos crew and have 1 Haemonculus walk around with the 6 Grotesques. Possibly web-way portal-ing them into play, if they can still use the Liquifier Guns in the same turn they emerge from the webway? I'd spend 3 CP and be able to have the Haemonculus arrive from the portal as well.

Can this be considered a better idea? The only downside would be that I'd have 1 instead of 2 units. Raiders themselves can't really take objectives, so they'd just be glorified Dark Lance carriers with the option to ram or chain-snare enemies. Isn't that a bit of wasted potential of this unit? (on top of that I've actually placed magnets inside their feet as well as the Raiders to have them stand in it for disembark visual stuff)

Silverglade wrote:

For your Cronos, you'll find him just "ok". He's pretty cheap for a reasonably tough monsterous creature, but I rarely field mine any longer. When I do, I arm him with the spirit probe and the Spirit Vortex.

Right, well I do have some points left so there's no harm in doing the same. I never used the Cronos for much else apart from the Inv. Sv improvement back in 7th, so nothing much has changed, and like you pointed out, it's cheap for an MC.

Silverglade wrote:

You'll find that the Taloi are your #1 best option. Rarely is it worth going for the Talos gauntlets in my experience. But I have taken from time to time for Anti Knight. But you'll find that the macro scalpel often does the trick for you.

I`ll arm them with macro-scalpels then. Seems like a fair trade, 4 points vs 15 points.

Silverglade wrote:

For sure Urien is a big plus. He increases the strength of your Coven units. So he definitely is a great force multiplier unit. I generally run one Haemonculous with vexator mask, Electro-corrosive whip and Urien.  (In casual games, you likely will get away with representing Urien with your second Hamie unit).

So I would say, for sure get the 3rd wrack unit and Urien (even the Venom is optional) in terms of next purchases.

Would you consider having Urien tag along with the Talosi crew? Having those guys with even more increased Strength is pretty extreme. Though at the same time, the Talosi crew also are the only ones capable of ranged vehicle destruction. Perhaps it's better to have Urien run around with the Grotesque's as well. I'm undecided.

It's here that I think we would have very much liked winged Wracks. Would have been logical no? Aren't the Scourges rich Drukhari that have had themselves be modified by the Haemonculi? Some winged Wracks that, like the Talosi, have built in Heavy Weaponry would probably not be that lore-unfriendly or would it? But I digress

[quote="Silverglade"]Prophets of Flesh is definitely the way to go, and go with diabolical soothsayer. To be battle-forged, you just have to be all Drukhari units in your army and fit in one of the pre-existing formations, and ensure that your whole army shares one keyword (Like "Aeldari" for example) if you have more than one formation.

So you will be getting the D3 CP with what you've outlined above.  (and don't forget the 3 CP you get for being battle forged in the first place)

So I would say, for sure get the 3rd wrack unit and Urien (even the Venom is optional) in terms of next purchases.[/quote[

Sweet, thanks for explaining that to me.

Curiosity question:

Have you ever used a fear-based army? So combining everything that reduces enemy leadership. Is this viable? When reading about it, it sounds cool, but I'm not sure how it would work on the battlefield.

Fear-based army are called "Freakshow". There are several posts on it on the forum. Dark Creed coven is often used in those armies, added with some eldar and harlequins psyckers that will further lower ennemy leadership and more importantly, trigger powers that will actually cause leadership damages.

dumpeal wrote:

Fear-based army are called "Freakshow". There are several posts on it on the forum. Dark Creed coven is often used in those armies, added with some eldar and harlequins psyckers that will further lower ennemy leadership and more importantly, trigger powers that will actually cause leadership damages.

Hmm, sounds cool yet, at the same time, it's not for me then as I'd prefer to roll with a Haemonculus Coven only army. Thanks for replying though

Welcome back!

The biggest issue you'll find with your plan is that the liquifiers are only 8" range and with all the current beta rules that are easy to miss, you can only deepstrike turn 2 and have to be over 9" away with no way of moving them further permitted that turn. So your 50 odd points of liquifiers aren't doing anything for you until turn 3. As other people have mentioned Grotesques are at their absolute best with their stock load out and Urien Rakarth bumping them up to strength 6. An interesting tactic is taking a large squad of them to bully weaker units with their cleaver but using their flesh gauntlets vs tougher units in conjunction with the Torturers Craft stratagem (reroll all wounds). You'll likely be wounding on 5s so can reroll more in the hopes of 6s and mortal wounds.

Warlord Traits are largely down to personal taste but most people who run a coven detachment of PoF take Diabolical Soothsayer for the CP.

Wracks are godlike with a Haemonculus babysitter. T5, 4++/6+++ troops for 9pts? With the option of coming back with black cornucopians? Amazing! They're not too shabby in combat now either with their poisoned weapons. I like to take 2 squads of 5 on foot as a screen for my army (The first line of defense) and a squad of 10 behind them. Acothysts get scissorhands for extra attacks and should the 10 man squad fall low or I really need to reposition I use Black Cornucopians (Prophets strat).

I personally keep my raiders stock with Dark Lances for coven and venoms just get the extra splinter cannon but they don't really have a bad upgrade on them so bling them out to your hearts content.

The Cronos is a bit of a weird beast, I really want to love it and still take one most games for the reroll to wound and healing on my talos, but it just doesn't do well in combat unfortunately.

Talos are currently very very strong and I have to limit myself to 2-3 per game against even the most hard-core of my friends lists because they're just that damn good so you're in a very strong position with 5 (6 if you proxied the cronos). A great loadout for them is Twin Haywire, Macro Scalpel & Chain Flails. The haywire is an awesome weapon for some of the tougher opponents you'll face like Knights and the chain flail is to get you out of tarpits since even though you can fly and fallout of combat unhindered, you cannot charge once you do so you lose a turn.

I would strongly suggest getting the 5 Wracks atleast so you can run a Batallion as having the CP will really open up your options. Vexator Mask is the only haemy relic I've used other than the Coven of Twelve one and it really is strong.

Also forgot to say your Coven looks awesome, good job! It's worth mentioning aswell that Scourges Mandrakes and Incubi can be used in any dark eldar detachment without voiding their Obsession, so if you wanted to run a unit or two of Converted Scourges using their Bat Wings, Wracks and heavy weapons I'm sure no one would be opposed (Also made me want to do it now)

Gizamaluke wrote:

Welcome back!

Thank you

Gizamaluke wrote:

The biggest issue you'll find with your plan is that the liquifiers are only 8" range and with all the current beta rules that are easy to miss, you can only deepstrike turn 2 and have to be over 9" away with no way of moving them further permitted that turn. So your 50 odd points of liquifiers aren't doing anything for you until turn 3.

Actually, I think I might have found an interesting workaround to this problem by using FIRE AND FADE (Drukhari Stratagem)

Use this Stratagem after a DRUKHARI unit from your army shoots in your Shooting phase. The unit can immediately move up to 7" as if it were the Movement phase (it cannot Advance as part of this move). However, it cannot charge in the same turn that it does so.

I only see the term "UNIT" being used. No specific keywords that would disallow a Raider, which is also a UNIT, to move right after it fired it's weaponry. Sure conventional rules say, you can't move during the movement phase, because you already deep striked, which is considered a move, but I'm pretty sure, this stratagem can be used to move my Raider after shooting and place myself within those 8" to unleash liquified death.

Gizamaluke wrote:

As other people have mentioned Grotesques are at their absolute best with their stock load out and Urien Rakarth bumping them up to strength 6. An interesting tactic is taking a large squad of them to bully weaker units with their cleaver but using their flesh gauntlets vs tougher units in conjunction with the Torturers Craft stratagem (reroll all wounds). You'll likely be wounding on 5s so can reroll more in the hopes of 6s and mortal wounds.

Well the thing is, I've already outfitted them with Liquifer Guns and I no longer have bits and pieces to alter their appearance. Truth be told, I'd rather not mess with their design. I really did my best to make em look as cool as possible.



I'm not stubborn though. I can definetly see the appeal of having Urien hang out with these guys. The Strength and Toughness bonus are nothing to take lightly. But considering I don't have Urien, this might be a tactic for another time. At least 1 out of 3 is armed with an Agoniser. That's something I hope. Should also somewhat compensate for Urien's absence.

Gizamaluke wrote:

Warlord Traits are largely down to personal taste but most people who run a coven detachment of PoF take Diabolical Soothsayer for the CP.

Yeah that does seem the more logical choice. I definetly should consider buying an extra unit of Wracks as well if I end up not getting my ass handed to me with the current build up 9 out of 10 matches

Gizamaluke wrote:

Wracks are godlike with a Haemonculus babysitter. T5, 4++/6+++ troops for 9pts? With the option of coming back with black cornucopians? Amazing! They're not too shabby in combat now either with their poisoned weapons. I like to take 2 squads of 5 on foot as a screen for my army (The first line of defense) and a squad of 10 behind them. Acothysts get scissorhands for extra attacks and should the 10 man squad fall low or I really need to reposition I use Black Cornucopians (Prophets strat).

Didn't they already always have poisoned weapons? I forgot. Black Cornucopians is very interesting; though I do think this would shine even more with a unit of 10+ rather than 5, but multiple units of 5 does make it easier to cover ground. Like before, it's a tactic I could consider in the future when I've got more Wracks.

Gizamaluke wrote:

I personally keep my raiders stock with Dark Lances for coven and venoms just get the extra splinter cannon but they don't really have a bad upgrade on them so bling them out to your hearts content.

Especially with the rather underwhelming Heavy Weapon options for the Heamonculus Coven, the Raider's their Dark Lances are the only most viable? backup option when it comes to damaging vehicles or MC. Though I do like those Disintegrator Cannons. Also really works nasty incombination with Deep Striking next to MEQ and then using my Strategem shinanigans.

Gizamaluke wrote:

The Cronos is a bit of a weird beast, I really want to love it and still take one most games for the reroll to wound and healing on my talos, but it just doesn't do well in combat unfortunately.

I think it starts to shine when you've got 3 in a unit. Their Strength is 5, with 3 attacks, 4 on the chrarge and they have -1 AP. Did Warhammer40k change that much that this has been dubbed as something that doesn't do well in CC?

Gizamaluke wrote:

Talos are currently very very strong and I have to limit myself to 2-3 per game against even the most hard-core of my friends lists because they're just that damn good so you're in a very strong position with 5 (6 if you proxied the cronos). A great loadout for them is Twin Haywire, Macro Scalpel & Chain Flails. The haywire is an awesome weapon for some of the tougher opponents you'll face like Knights and the chain flail is to get you out of tarpits since even though you can fly and fallout of combat unhindered, you cannot charge once you do so you lose a turn.

You would suggest Haywire Blasters over Heat Lances any day? Because those Haywire Blasters can't really take out MC right or for that I'd just go into melee? Having Urien with them might even be more interesting than having Urien tag along with the Grotesque's, no?

Gizamaluke wrote:

I would strongly suggest getting the 5 Wracks atleast so you can run a Batallion as having the CP will really open up your options. Vexator Mask is the only haemy relic I've used other than the Coven of Twelve one and it really is strong.

Definetly will consider it for later

Gizamaluke wrote:

Also forgot to say your Coven looks awesome, good job! It's worth mentioning aswell that Scourges Mandrakes and Incubi can be used in any dark eldar detachment without voiding their Obsession, so if you wanted to run a unit or two of Converted Scourges using their Bat Wings, Wracks and heavy weapons I'm sure no one would be opposed (Also made me want to do it now)

Definetly true, but it would still be considered Scourges that do not belong to the Coven and I'd rather play full on Coven than a hybrid.

Not trying to be rude, or come off as patronizing or anything, but I've noticed a few things with your stuff.

1. You can't give grotesques an agoniser.

2. How are your cronos getting 4 attacks on a charge? Also, in my experience -1 ap is great against basic infantry, or low armour save models that don't have an invul, but that's about it.

3. Heat lances are alright, they can deal with mid toughness, high-save things, but you don't see many of those.

In the FAQ they changed most rules allowing to move outside the movement phase. They can not be used on units that used some ability to deep strike this turn.

e.g. deepstriking a raider and then using fire and fade on it is not allowed.

Sarcron wrote:

Not trying to be rude, or come off as patronizing or anything, but I've noticed a few things with your stuff.

1. You can't give grotesques an agoniser.

Hi, no worries, I thought so too, but then my friend explained me that I can still use the Index 1 rules, which states that I in fact can give one Grotesque an Agoniser.

Sarcron wrote:

2. How are your cronos getting 4 attacks on a charge? Also, in my experience -1 ap is great against basic infantry, or low armour save models that don't have an invul, but that's about it.

As far as I know they already have 3 attacks according to their profile. I'd assume that when charging you'd still receive the +1 attack like how it used to be, but maybe that's changed.

As for calculations vs MEQ:

3 attacks @ WS4+ = 1.5 hits >> S5 vs T4 = 3+ >> 1.5 hits x 0.66 = 0.99 * 4+ saves = 0.5 dead MEQ. (based on no +1 attack due to charging)

4 attacks @ WS4+ = 2 hits >> S5 vs T4 = 3+ >> 2 hits x 0.66 = 1.32 * 4+ saves = 0.5 dead MEQ. (based on +1 attack due to charging)

3 attacks @ WS4+ = 1.5 hits >> S5 vs T4 = 2+ >> 1.5 hits x 0.83 = 1.24 * 4+ saves = 0.5 dead MEQ. (based on no +1 attack due to charging and +1 to hit because of PFP round 3)

4 attacks @ WS4+ = 2 hits >> S5 vs T4 = 2+ >> 2 hits x 0.83 = 1.66 * 4+ saves = 0.83 dead MEQ. (based on +1 attack due to charging and +1 to hit because of PFP round 3)

Granted, it's not something super reliable, but hey at least he's surrounded by 5 Talosi, so he`ll live. And the potential 1 wound is all it needs to inflict to make use of the Spirit Probe.

Sarcron wrote:

3. Heat lances are alright, they can deal with mid toughness, high-save things, but you don't see many of those.

So your advise would be to just go full on Haywire Blasters?

Ragnos wrote:

In the FAQ they changed most rules allowing to move outside the movement phase. They can not be used on units that used some ability to deep strike this turn.

e.g. deepstriking a raider and then using fire and fade on it is not allowed.

Which FAQ are you talking about. Is this some Errata thing or something? Can you perhaps provide me with a link or maybe to the actual page in a rulebook / update pdf where it says so?

You can find it here under the reinforcements section. 3rd question.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-1.pdf

Ragnos wrote:

You can find it here under the reinforcements section. 3rd question.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-1.pdf

Thank you

Well crap, that definetly throws a wrench into my strategy.

No problem. To patch so many different sources together to figure out all the rules is really cumbersome.

You don't get +1 attacks for charging anymore mate they've tied it into weapons.

Interesting to remember if you're arming talos with double macro scalpels you an extra attack with each one. Also haywire is one of the top tier weapons in the game because of the prevalence of invul save vehicles, your scalpels or poison are for monsters.

Gizamaluke wrote:

You don't get +1 attacks for charging anymore mate they've tied it into weapons.

Interesting to remember if you're arming talos with double macro scalpels you an extra attack with each one.

Now that's something I haven't thought of or heard of before. That might give me some funnier things to do with my nids.

Yeah the important difference is the wording on the macro scalpel ends with "it may make 1 additional attack with them" rather than just it may make 1 additional attack.

Don't Gros have a BS skill of 6+? Unless I'm missing something seems bad to give them range.

Liquifiers auto hit so BS doesn't matter