First 40k list ever: Haemonculus Coven 1500 points

Alright i need some help with building a competative ist but staying with the coven theme.

This is a list made of what I bought so far going by some advice of the store.

1500 points:

HQ
Haemonculus Ancient 90
-venomblade
-liquifier gun

Troops
5 Wracks 125
-Liquifier
-Venom with double splinter cannon

5 Wracks 125
-Liquifier
-Venom with double splinter cannon

5 Wracks 125
-Liquifier
-Venom with double splinter cannon

5 Wracks 125
-Liquifier
-Venom with double splinter cannon

Elites
4 Grotesques (Haemonculus ancient goes here) 240
-Aberation with venom blade
-Liquifier
-Raider with Night shields and Tormenter Grenades

Heavy Attack
Talos Pain Engine 115
-Twin linked liquifier
-Twin linked Heat Lance

Talos Pain Engine 115
-Twin linked liquifier
-Twin linked Heat Lance

Voidraven Bomber 155
-Flickerfield


This leaves me with 185 points to play with and no idea where to go. There are a few concerns with the list I have though. When it comes to flyers some people say: "one is none and two is some" . How ever one of the main reasons I want to play Dark Eldar is because of the Talos models. I also would like to add another converted raider seeing as I have enough bits to copy the one I have in progress right now.

Could you guys help me out? It should be an all comers list seeing as I might want to join Throne of skulls with it at some point (not to win it but not to finish last either!)

HELP!

Well, I'd say you are severely lacking in the AT department. No turn one AT, after that two Talos mounted heatlances and your Voidraven - if and when it comes on.

I would suggest turning down the Haemie to a non-Ancient, and replacing a Venom of Wracks (or two) with Blasterborn.

Thx but I prefer to not use trueborn to keep with my haemonculus theme. I can live with scourges since those have had their bodies modified completely by the Haemonculi. Trueborn just don't go with the theme

So you're willing to pay 140 points for two blasters or dark lances? Because those shardcarbines are just tax now. Hey man, it's your list, but there's a reason scourges are used very little in the competitive scene.

No you misunderstand me. What I mean is that scourges could go with the theme since they are Haemonculus made. If you say they are not worth taking, fair enough.

I just want to stick with Coven units and make a list as strong as possible within that restriction, if that means overpaying for scourges... well it would be a bummer but at least I then stick with the theme. I'm open for alternative options though.

K until I hear an alternative anti tank unit for the scourges how about this?

HQ
Haemonculus 65
-liquifier gun
-venom blade

Troops
5 wracks 125
-liquifier gun
-venom with double splinter cannon

5 wracks 125
-liquifier gun
-venom with double splinter cannon

5 wracks 125
- liquifier gun
-venom with double splinter cannon

10 wracks 190
- 2 liquifier guns
-raider with flickerfield (or nightshield?)

Elite
4 Grotesques (Haemi goes here) 225
-liquifier gun
-aberation
-raider with flickerfield (or nightshield?)

Fast attack
5 Scourges 130
-2 haywire blasters

5 Scourges 130
-2 haywire blasters

Heavy support
Talos 115
-twin linked liquifier
-twin linked heat lance

Talos 115
-twin linked liquifier
-twin linked heat lance

Voidraven Bomber 155
-flickerfield


1500 points exactly

Anyone?

The void raven doesn't really fit with the coven theme. Why not put it another talos and give them ALL twin-linked haywire blasters? They effectively have a 30" range. The heat lance only has about a 15" range. They're cheaper too. Frees up 55 points. Make your hammie ancient again and give him a dark gate. Large blast S10 (S9 on vehicles). That's what I would do. Without changing too much. By the time your taloi get into melta range it will be too late. But I'm new. The more experienced guys might be able to help you out better.

I often play Coven-heavy armies and can offer a couple of possible hints.

1. Keep the Haemi as an Ancient.
-It seems insignificant to most people glancing at the list, but LD9 is critical when dealing with a must-assault unit like Grotesques. In the last game that I played I ran an identical Grotesque unit (minus the tormentor launchers...I should steal that idea  ) This unit is ALWAYS turbo-boosted straight towards any sort of a soft spot in my opponents line. This forces your opponent to react to it. The Raider will get blown up the majority of the time, and taking a pinning test on LD9 over LD8 is HUGE. Last game I took the cheaper regular Haemi and rolled....wait for it....9. You don't want this unit pinned for a turn that it should be wrecking face in assault. Venomblade and liquifier are perfect to keep the points down.

2. Grot unit: perfect setup. Many prefer a flesh gauntlet for the aberation, I think that having 2+ poisoned attacks with a re-roll is pretty much as awesome as it gets.

3. Troops: I would keep a couple of the Venom units as you listed. For the others I would take Raiders. Your list will hate life in the AT department. You might even use some of your extra points to bulk some of the Raider units to 8 or so models, perhaps with Acothyst upgrades for added punch in CC. If you are planning on getting close enough to use those liquifiers you should plan on seeing some CC.

4. Heavy Support:
-I am a huge fan of all things Talos; the way they look, play, fluff, EVERYTHING. I would take the two with heatlances. I'm not as keen on using Taloi with TL liquifiers if I'm not using a WWP, but I can see the value there. These will draw an insane amount of fire away from your fragile Raiders/Venoms, and are a blast once they hit your enemy's line. Barge these straight ahead, perhaps even as a follow-up wave to your Grots and you will see great results.
-As for the Void Raven, I'm yet to use one. (I only play with painted models and I've not figured out how to convert one worth a damn :p ) I think this is a fine choice of you are looking for AA. Not upgrading for expensive missiles keeps this bird dedicated to AA/AT duty. Not the most Coven-themed unit, but it will serve you well in games.

5. As for the extra points left over, I would consider Raiders/bulking out Troop units listed above. You will still be light on AT, but the army will still play fine if you are aggressive with your heavy hitters (Grots/Taloi) Though many see Scourges as "not competitive", they could make their points back by serving as a distraction/misdirection unit if used in conjunction with your heavy hitter units. Though they may deep strike and be a "one and done" suicide unit, they can misdirect your opponent if they are forced to eliminate them in their backfield. I suggest using heatlances with them. Many argue that blasters allow them to double their effective range to 18" (thus reducing return fire), but I find that often heatlances will actually blow up a vehicle. If they don't just remind them that they are a S6 melta WITH the lance rule. They won't get ignored that way  

Trust me, you will here plenty of mathhammer arguments against Coven armies from people that don't play coven lists. Make sure that you use the big scary units to force your opponent to react to you and you'll do fine.

Evil Space Elves wrote:

I often play Coven-heavy armies and can offer a couple of possible hints.

Though many see Scourges as "not competitive", they could make their points back by serving as a distraction/misdirection unit if used in conjunction with your heavy hitter units. Though they may deep strike and be a "one and done" suicide unit, they can misdirect your opponent if they are forced to eliminate them in their backfield. I suggest using heatlances with them. Many argue that blasters allow them to double their effective range to 18" (thus reducing return fire), but I find that often heatlances will actually blow up a vehicle. If they don't just remind them that they are a S6 melta WITH the lance rule. They won't get ignored that way  

I learned the hard way scourges are terrible deepstrike units. They scatter too much and fly into walls. I mean, it's hilarious to watch but not very effective. Also about the lance. Scourges are way too fragile to get that close. You might blow up a vehicle, but your scourges are guaranteed to get destroyed. Damn near the same thing with Blasters. Haywire Blasters give you a 36" range. 24" plus jump infantry. A five man squad can strip 2 hull points off of any vehicle with good rolls. Av10? With immaculate rolls you can strip off four hullpoints. You basically cause a hull point on so long as you hit on 3+.  Evil space elves is right about misdirecting opponents to eliminate them in the back field. If your opponent sees mere infantry taking out their walkers and vehicles they will go after them. I had 2 squads of scourges take out a land raider first turn. My opponent immediately saw them as a threat and chased their 12" moving asses. Terrible deployment on his part, but you catch my drift. People are too greedy to make vehicles explode.

That's why I suggested it on the Talos. It will give him something to shoot while he catches up to the rest of your army. but definitely listen to Evil Space Elves on that one, I have little experience with them.

I agree that in many circumstances it is safer and more effective to maneuver your Scourges into position. The threat of their AT weapons can affect how your opponent deploys. I would disagree on the effectiveness of Haywire blasters with Scourges. I find that stripping hull points is overrated with them. They do offer better range for safety and are a bit better at guaranteeing a result, but I find that most AV10 vehicles that they are shooting at are either fast vehicles that have either turboboosted or are getting some sort of a cover save due to a small profile. I'd rather take my chances actually killing something with an AP1 weapon, though this is more a personal preference (due to an overly-aggressive playing style) rather than some sort of absolute tactical law. Different playing styles make different weapon options more or less viable I suppose.

And absolutely do use heat lances with Taloi; I take all three of mine that way  Some prefer the splinter cannon, but given the need for AT in these lists I would definitely go with heat lances.

Alright first off thank you guys very very much. It is so hard to find any info on pure Coven lists. Having someone chime in that has played with it is awesome. This gave me quite a lot to digest.

So taking both your advice how am I gonna trim down the second list I posted?
Where do I shave of the points to get the required points for your suggestions?

Looking at the second list I need at least 30-55 points to upgrade the Haemonculus depending on the toys.

I could live with dropping the voidraven bomber I'm just afraid that with everyone running flyers I will have nothing AA in my list. I already have a third Talos so cash wise it won't be an issue.

Guess I could also drop a venom but then again won't I be a bit light on troops?

I could also drop one unit of scourges but this makes the list even less AT.

I would prefer not to take more then two raiders but that is more because my conversion costs a leg and an arm to do. I could make 2 with one zombiedragon but for the next I would have to buy another box.

I like the idea of taking the haywire blasters on the Talos having something to shoot at with them from first turn one could help lessen the threat especially if they can glance something to death in combination with the scourges.

Well if you drop the void raven, and replace it with the exact talos you've been listing you free up 40 points. That's enough to upgrade the haemonculous, you'd still have 10 points left over though.

Also I noticed you put a question mark by flickerfields and night shields. Someone please correct me on this because I prefer flickerfields, but you may prefer night shields. Explosions don't hurt wracks and grots much, and you'll be moving flatout the first turn anyway which is a +4 cover save. After you drop off your cargo you can hug the edges of the table with night shields and shoot units from out of range.

I haven't faced many flyers myself, but the general consensus is, if you come up against flyers one void raven isn't going to make a big difference. You might be able to snipe one flyer out of the air before your one crashes and burns. I'd try it with the three talos, and IF flyers are a problem...

Would it not be more fluffy to put some wracks behind an Aegis Defense line? They're ballistic skill 4 even though they can't shoot anything. While it's hard to picture a Kabal or a Wych Cult with gun emplacements, it sounds perfectly fine for a coven. And wracks are tough little bastards so they would be hard to get out of there. 4+ cover save and if they go to ground it's a 2+, and feel no pain? Hell yes! Though I would only do this if you find flyers to be the bane of your existence. At any rate the line and wracks is still cheaper than the void raven.

Aéquitas wrote:

I would prefer not to take more then two raiders but that is more because my conversion costs a leg and an arm to do. I could make 2 with one zombiedragon but for the next I would have to buy another box.

Ouch, good point. And a fantastic looking conversion it is! Have you tried looking on Ebay for the wing bits? Might save you a bit, though I don't know the availability of bits on Ebay for Europe. I can say that I can picture you converting one epically awesome looking Aegis defense line if you take Expletive Deleted's suggestion of dropping the VR.

Aéquitas wrote:

I like the idea of taking the haywire blasters on the Talos having something to shoot at with them from first turn one could help lessen the threat especially if they can glance something to death in combination with the scourges.

I don't like using this tactic simply because I want my Talos to close in on the enemy as fast as possible(running) where the D6 S7 Monstrous Creature attacks are far more useful IMHO than one haywire blaster that hits 75% of the time (BS3 + reroll) With the heat lance you are tempted to shoot it rather than running when you have closed within >9"'s or so for the melta shot. At this range you can follow up with a charge. Again, it's a personal preference on my part, but I have had success using that layout. You will find that running 2-3 Taloi straight at the enemy will have them soiling themselves a bit. Even against heavy fire you should have 1-2 make it to the enemy lines, soaking up AT fire not being directed against your transports the whole way  

(Oh, I apologize for not offering specific tweaks to your list; I'm out of town and don't have a codex with me   )

Evil Space Elves wrote:

Aéquitas wrote:

I would prefer not to take more then two raiders but that is more because my conversion costs a leg and an arm to do. I could make 2 with one zombiedragon but for the next I would have to buy another box.

Ouch, good point. And a fantastic looking conversion it is! Have you tried looking on Ebay for the wing bits? Might save you a bit, though I don't know the availability of bits on Ebay for Europe. I can say that I can picture you converting one epically awesome looking Aegis defense line if you take Expletive Deleted's suggestion of dropping the VR.

Aéquitas wrote:

I like the idea of taking the haywire blasters on the Talos having something to shoot at with them from first turn one could help lessen the threat especially if they can glance something to death in combination with the scourges.

I don't like using this tactic simply because I want my Talos to close in on the enemy as fast as possible(running) where the D6 S7 Monstrous Creature attacks are far more useful IMHO than one haywire blaster that hits 75% of the time (BS3 + reroll) With the heat lance you are tempted to shoot it rather than running when you have closed within >9"'s or so for the melta shot. At this range you can follow up with a charge. Again, it's a personal preference on my part, but I have had success using that layout. You will find that running 2-3 Taloi straight at the enemy will have them soiling themselves a bit. Even against heavy fire you should have 1-2 make it to the enemy lines, soaking up AT fire not being directed against your transports the whole way  

(Oh, I apologize for not offering specific tweaks to your list; I'm out of town and don't have a codex with me   )

Ah good point. Note I am a fantasy player and haven't played a single game of 40k yet, so I didn't think about things like running and not being able to shoot. I guess its simular to Fantasy's not being able to shoot after marching, makes sence.

The idea with the Talos is indeed getting them in close combat and breaking things so Heat Lances it is.

Converting an Aegis defence line sounds fun so I'll probably end up making one just for kicks, I wonder though if it is effective in a Dark Eldar army. Isn't the point for Dark Eldar to bring the fight to the enemy? The Aegis defence line in your own deployment zone sounds kind of counter productive in that regard. And if all my juicy targets are in the enemy's zone the enemies Flyers will probably not come in range of my Aegis
Or is it good for holding an objective in your own zone?
How many wracks would I need to throw in there? I'm guessing I would have to drop one venom and get that squad in the defence line right?

So many questions lol.

@Expletive Deleted how would you change my second list to include an Aegis defence line with the Quad gun and the Haemonculus Ancient?

I'd drop the voidraven and put in the third talos upgrade the hammie. Play that army. Then if flyers prove to be an insurmountable thorn in your side, find a way to fit in the defense line. But yeah if you put 5 wracks in a defense line on top of an objective, you're making your enemy come to you, and without ignore cover they'll be really hard to kill.

At risk of being yelled at, I'm curious why nobody has any love for the Cronos? I think I'd rather a Spirit Vortex over any other thing in that list and the double template which doesn't rely on BS should do a lot of damage to infantry and help keep your MCs alive until they get close enough to shred vehicles. The Cronos is still good against most MCs, though perhaps a little less reliable.

The ADL looks like a smart idea too. You could put a minimum of 3 Wracks on it, so just figure how many you need to use to live long enough to take out some flyers. The Quad-gun has 48" range, so you should be able to perch it near the edge of your deployment zone and have almost the entire board covered. Even if you don't, flyers need to fly in circles around the middle of the board or else they fly off so you'll have plenty of opportunity to shoot at them. Alternatively consider the Icarus because it's a little better against AV12+ tanks, which should be a boon to you. Even getting a crew shaken is a massive help when you're trying to run down the clock for your Taloi to close in.

I will definately not yell at you for suggesting it, I was actually looking at it yesterday. If you would ever want to field one this is probably the best list for it seeing as it is filled to the brim with units that have a use for the paintokens.

It can also get the Talos their feel no pain early.

There won't be any yelling, but I don't think that the Cronos is a good fit for this army list simply because of the lack of AT. I've played the Cronos paired with 2 Taloi...it was AWESOME. I think that it just reduces the amount of AT in this list that is already struggling to deal with armor. I'm not in the "Cronos Hate Club" by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think that it requires a certain type of list to maximize its strengths.

I absolutely love the Cronos too. First model I really fell in love with, and I field it in armies it doesn't belong in all the time. But I'm in agreement with Evil Space Elves. A cronos most benefits an army that doesn't have pain tokens to start. Oddly enough, the least useful place to put a cronos is typically in a coven list. It's still a great unit despite what people say. But it won't shine in this list like it would in another list.

Honestly teh ADL is looking better than I thought now, what with the AT it provides. I wouldn't know how to fit it into the list though. I mean barebones a unit of haywire scourges are 130 points. You could put down two Aegis defense lines on each end of your deployment zone with wracks inside instead of the scourges to be more fluffy. A quad gun and 3 wracks is 150 points. BUT you could put five wracks in 2 ADLS with an icarus cannon. it's only two shots, but it's 96" range S9 shots ap 2. Which is close to what you were getting with your voidraven. Costs a hell of a lot more, but the voidraven is more fragile and not scoring. they're 135 a piece like that, which fills the last ten points. And you get three taloi.

That's just a theory though. The other guys can criticize it.

Please stop yelling at me, Cronos Hate Club  . I was only partially interested in the pain token the Cronos generates and more interested in the AP 3 pie plates it provides. The Pain Tokens should go to the Taloi and the Cronos because they don't start with Pain Tokens and get a huge benefit from FNP and Furious Charge. Maybe you could trade Venoms for Raiders to add more AT if you're already dumping pie plates and templates on the opponent - the extra splinter fire maybe isn't needed as much?

Expletive Deleted wrote:

Honestly teh ADL is looking better than I thought now, what with the AT it provides. I wouldn't know how to fit it into the list though. I mean barebones a unit of haywire scourges are 130 points. You could put down two Aegis defense lines on each end of your deployment zone with wracks inside instead of the scourges to be more fluffy. A quad gun and 3 wracks is 150 points. BUT you could put five wracks in 2 ADLS with an icarus cannon. it's only two shots, but it's 96" range S9 shots ap 2. Which is close to what you were getting with your voidraven. Costs a hell of a lot more, but the voidraven is more fragile and not scoring. they're 135 a piece like that, which fills the last ten points. And you get three taloi.

That's just a theory though. The other guys can criticize it.

You can only use one Fortification per primary detachment and the ADL needs to be deployed in one long section so that puts the kibosh on that. I think the ADL is definitely still good and you should figure out how to squeeze it in.