How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?

yellabelly wrote:

... Apologies if that sounds overwhelmingly negative. I'm usually quite a positive person but having my ass kicked by marines week in week out is getting me down!

I know exactly how you feel. I remember being trounced repeatedly by nearly every army out there during 4th ed (particularly, Daemons), because ours was the only 3rd edition codex still around.

Those were dark times...

Cerve wrote:

Here there's no problem at all about 40k (north Italy). But after the last GT/big event results we got that there's a big difference between CA19 and ITC format.
In ITC, the game is broken and Marines are all over the top.
In CA19, Marines are good but are way more beatable. Still a bit over the top, but if you play around conquer the ground it's affordable.
In ITC you can list ignoring that and just kill the opponent: there, SM are broken.
All 40k has an inner balance about firepower/control objectives. CA19 is the best way to play the game as intended and the best balanced format in my opinion.
You can see it even in the last events (ie. Caledonian, GT GW...). Even Tyrands are good in there.

The problem is that the major tournament circuit in the US has been fan organized since at least Nova. ITC has defenders because the LVO is the world's largest tournament. If you want to be in the big leagues you play by that rule set. Frontline Gaming reinforces the hype around ITC. It also has fewer scenarios and objectives that are easier to anticipate and build lists around.

My local doesn't play ITC for pickup games, only the monthly tournament is ITC.

And its the Pick up games that has died for my full area, and now the events are starting to suffer too, used to be over full and now we are looking for players. The Weekly set day for 40k is dead, no one comes anymore.

Everyone has 2-3 armies well over 3k in points for each, so its not like players don't have options, no one at my local likes 8th at this point.

I can't even get a pickup game anymore, but i can get any other game i want at anytime, heck i was playing a game of Sigmar at midnight last night lol.

How do I feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?

Since V8 rules and codex, what it was good for DE, I didn't have corrections I expected.

When I have seen units inclued in the first PA, I have hoped many changes.
And I was a little disappointed after previews.
Drazhar is better, incubi won a little, but other units have been forgotten and too few new obsessions are useful (especially for Kabales).

It seems to me many updates are missing :
- Venom must be have capacity transport of 6 (our malediction since V7 codex and minimun units size of 5)
- Hellion must be have 2 HP (+1 with the surf)
- Scourges, Incubi and Mandrakes must be have their own Obsessions rules kind of Mercenary Contract.
For example one Mercenary Contract for all units in a Detchment :
Assassins Contract : Once per battle each unit can reroll dices to bless.
Hunters contract : Once per battle each unit can reroll dices to hit.
Guards contract : Once per battle each unit can reroll dices to save.
Trackers Contract : Once per battle each unit can add on dice to charge or advance moves and discard the lower.


Finally I can just hope to have something good in 2020 (between two primaris news) perhaps a new codex with more than just costs changes (some Flying Heros, one Lord of Battle, an Archite Vouge with -1 to hit and damage 2 , A Heat lance become a flamer weapon...).

So, came up against a Chaos Knight in my last match (2k points). I think they rock in about 320 points for their T8 24 wounds? It just reinforces my recent thoughts that whatever I come up with at a similar points cost, I will always come off second best.

SCP Yeeman wrote:

I must be in the minority here because I feel a little revitalized from Psychic Awakening.

I fear I'm the opposite. Psychic Awakening all but killed my interest in 40k.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

There's a simple reason for that, Phoenix Rising lost sixteen pages of rules content to reprinting the Ynnari white dwarf rules basically word for word. There's all the space that could have been given over to new craftworld/Drukhari strats, relics and warlord traits.

Perhaps I'm of a more cynical persuasion but I think it's the opposite.

I think they had a few DE rules and a few Eldar rules in the works, but couldn't be bothered making any more. So rather than actually giving either army new Warlord Traits, Relics, Stratagems etc., they instead just shoved the Ynnari rules to pad the book out.

This would also explain why any and all feedback about the Ynnari rules was disregarded entirely.

Given that GW's books apparently have an ~eight month printing time, they literally wouldn't have had time to take into account any feedback about the Ynnari rules. The White Dwarf with them came out in April, Phoenix Rising in October.

Burnage wrote:

Given that GW's books apparently have an ~eight month printing time, they literally wouldn't have had time to take into account any feedback about the Ynnari rules. The White Dwarf with them came out in April, Phoenix Rising in October.

I'd say its more about 6 months, but yeah i feel the same, and i feel they just half assed it all the way. Anyone with a brain in the game saw the problems right away.

Having had worked that needed to write a book, make it in many formats, and print it. It can take a long time for sure, especially once you add in they need to do it in 12 languages.

Burnage wrote:

Given that GW's books apparently have an ~eight month printing time, they literally wouldn't have had time to take into account any feedback about the Ynnari rules. The White Dwarf with them came out in April, Phoenix Rising in October.

Okay. However, consider the following:

1) Changes were made to Ynnari (most notably a drop in point costs for the 3 characters) between the WD release and Phoenix Rising. So clearly they had time to make some changes.

2) There was no reason Phoenix Rising needed to be the first book released. They could have easily made it a later release to give themselves time to make more changes based on feedback from the WD rules. And let's be honest - feedback for those rules was hardly in short supply.

3) Even if they were determined to make Phoenix Rising the first book, they could have just left out Ynnari and focused more on the DE and Eldar instead (which would have made sense, given that neither of the central characters they were pushing can be Ynnari).

But no, instead they chose the laziest, most half-arsed option possible and released a book that included almost nothing for Eldar and even less for Dark Eldar, and then shoved in the same, godawful Ynnari rules just to pad it out.

Today, I am a little more disappointed by news.

Why did other receive best ideas?:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

I think they had a few DE rules and a few Eldar rules in the works, but couldn't be bothered making any more. So rather than actually giving either army new Warlord Traits, Relics, Stratagems etc., they instead just shoved the Ynnari rules to pad the book out.

It seems brainstorming sessions are not for DE...

The sad thing is that even when GW picks themes for DE, they then give other races weapons that casually surpass them (and with vastly more creativity).

For example, consider DE's theme of Poison Weapons. Compare ours:



To those of GSC:



The Injector Goad is a Venom Blade that does d3 damage and also has a chance of dealing d3 Mortal Wounds to any Character wounded but not killed by it.

The Toxin Injector Claw is a Venom Blade combined with a Rending Claw.

The Sanctus Bio-Dagger is a Venom Blade combined with an Electrocorrosive Whip and with the extra attack from Scissorhands, with zero downsides.


And bear in mind that these aren't relics - these are just basic weapons.

In the same way we can compare an Archite Vouge a character's weapon and the CW Executionner a unit leader's weapon.

Spoiler:

Perhaps we don't understand the rule.
Others can kill DE on 2+/3+.
And DE must only bless on 4+/5+...

Soulless Samurai wrote:

The sad thing is that even when GW picks themes for DE, they then give other races weapons that casually surpass them (and with vastly more creativity).

For example, consider DE's theme of Poison Weapons. Compare ours:



To those of GSC:



The Injector Goad is a Venom Blade that does d3 damage and also has a chance of dealing d3 Mortal Wounds to any Character wounded but not killed by it.

The Toxin Injector Claw is a Venom Blade combined with a Rending Claw.

The Sanctus Bio-Dagger is a Venom Blade combined with an Electrocorrosive Whip and with the extra attack from Scissorhands, with zero downsides.


And bear in mind that these aren't relics - these are just basic weapons.

But what are the points difference and the unit stats difference along with units points?
I don't mind if something is better if they are paying more for it.

PS, as of right now tho from the few GSC players i do know, they are hating GSC, way to costly of an army for way to little value in each unit, they only have 3-4 units of any worth, its like if we played with 70 Kabals that had special DS rules and 4x the shots then you had your other 3 units that did real work. Sadly i feel its 8th ed core rules at fault and all the insane shooting/power creep in the game.

amishprn86 wrote:

But what are the points difference and the unit stats difference along with units points?

All those weapons cost 0pts.

As for the units that wield them, in order:

Primus 75pts (4 attacks at WS2+)

Biophagus 35pts (3 attacks at WS3+)

Sanctus 55pts (4+1 attacks at WS2+)

amishprn86 wrote:

I don't mind if something is better if they are paying more for it.

But by the same measure, I would actually like the option of paying a bit extra for a weapon that isn't absolute arse.

amishprn86 wrote:

PS, as of right now tho from the few GSC players i do know, they are hating GSC, way to costly of an army for way to little value in each unit, they only have 3-4 units of any worth, its like if we played with 70 Kabals that had special DS rules and 4x the shots then you had your other 3 units that did real work. Sadly i feel its 8th ed core rules at fault and all the insane shooting/power creep in the game.

Getting off topic but I think a big part of the problem is that the core rules for 8th have absolutely nothing that can be built on. There's nothing to them, there are no mechanics on which anything can build, it's just a game of spreadsheets.

Hence, the only way for armies to differentiate themselves is by adding more and more special rules.

I mean, CPs could have been a great way to focus every army around a resource-management system, whilst also giving a lot of non-psyker HQs more of a function. Instead, they just amounted to a card game that you happen to be playing at the same time.

@amish The points differences dont matter, what matters is the massive difference in creativity of the rules of those weapons as @soulless said, those are rules on basic weapons that I'm sure a fair portion of the GSC army has the option to take ... our RELICS aren't even that good and those are supposed to be the most powerful gear in our arsenal and are only accessible to a very very select few of our models ... and, I know it's pointless to say "based on the lore" buuuut, Dark eldar are supposed to be masters of poisons... and outside of basivally every model we have uses a poison weapon ... there is nothing that shows we are the masters of poisons, it would have been so nice to just have rules that matched that identity, either the ability to choose different (army wide) poisons at the start of every turn like
"Masters of poidons: At the start of each battle round select a poison from the list, every "poisoned weapon" gains the select poison ability along with the normal poison rule. ( names aren't very creative)
Deaths Vintage - Add 1 to the wound roll for wounds caused by poison weapons this round.
Neuroplague - Subract 1 from WS and BS of enemy units that suffer 1 or more wounds from poisoned weapons until the end of this battle round
Electrocaustic - Increase the AP of poisoned weapons by 1 (a weapon with and AP of 0 would now have an AP of -1)"
Or even just similar rules to what the GSC have

Well, we had creativity but it was taken away.... 5th was the last time we had anything cool.

amishprn86 wrote:

Well, we had creativity but it was taken away.... 5th was the last time we had anything cool.

The 5th edition codex was also the last time DE saw any new developments in units or wargear, and that was ten years ago.

Burnage wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Well, we had creativity but it was taken away.... 5th was the last time we had anything cool.

The 5th edition codex was also the last time DE saw any new developments in units or wargear, and that was ten years ago.

I now, i just love that book so much that i mention it all the time GW doesn't like to give us anything.

amishprn86 wrote:

Burnage wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Well, we had creativity but it was taken away.... 5th was the last time we had anything cool.

The 5th edition codex was also the last time DE saw any new developments in units or wargear, and that was ten years ago.

I now, i just love that book so much that i mention it all the time  GW doesn't like to give us anything.

Did Dark Eldar not sell well in 5th edition?

I got the impression they were really popular.

I ask because if they had sold well, I'd have thought it would have sent a reasonable message that DE can be profitable just so long as GW can be arsed actually supporting them with good rules and models.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Burnage wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Well, we had creativity but it was taken away.... 5th was the last time we had anything cool.

The 5th edition codex was also the last time DE saw any new developments in units or wargear, and that was ten years ago.

I now, i just love that book so much that i mention it all the time  GW doesn't like to give us anything.

Did Dark Eldar not sell well in 5th edition?

I got the impression they were really popular.

I ask because if they had sold well, I'd have thought it would have sent a reasonable message that DE can be profitable just so long as GW can be arsed actually supporting them with good rules and models.

They sold well, but not as much as all the space marines combined.

Burnage wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Well, we had creativity but it was taken away.... 5th was the last time we had anything cool.

The 5th edition codex was also the last time DE saw any new developments in units or wargear, and that was ten years ago.

That is not entirely true. Plastic Wracks came with the Ossefactor and the Succubus brought the Archite Glaive. The Talos also got his gauntlet in 8th.

But I agree with the sentiment, we lost an aweful lot in 7th.

I'd just like some of the same treatment as other factions: specialist detatchments with Relics, Strats and WLTs. That would go a huge distance for me.

At least its not as bad as Quins. Its looking more and more like they are not getting anything for PA. The new community post said "The Aeldari, Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, Thousand Sons, Genestealer Cults, T’au Empire, Astra Militarum and a whole host of Space Marines Chapters have all seen new rules, and more are on the way." sure it says "and more on the way. But many have been asking GW if they are going to get a spot in PA and they haven't said anything yet, BUT others have asked if their faction would and they DID answer them.

That was my last hope for 8th, it quins don't get anything i'm just quitting 8th until a revamp.

I really wouldn't read into that too much. Yes, we all know GW can be dumb but PA has shown so far that everyone gets SOMETHING. I mean look at what GK got, a relatively small niche faction (yes yes I know, still marines), and they got a whole host of rules. Now I'm not saying Quinns will get equal treatment, but I'd at least expect some little set of rules. Plus consider what factions are not announced yet- Necrons, Custodes, Deatwatch, maybe SoB and deathguard. One of those probably gets thrown in with Orks vs Space wolves, but there's still room for the rest in another PA book or two. I'll despair once PA is fully announced and there's no quinns, but until then I maintain hope that even if quinns get a just a few pages of rules from PA at least it's something.

GK's are twice the size as Quins, so i wouldn't call them small/niche.

Not saying Quins isn't, just not getting hyped lol