How do you feel about the current state of Dark Eldar?

amishprn86 wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

amishprn86 wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

HERO wrote:

Do you think we'll see Slaanesh?  Maybe Harlequins will come then?  I mean, the entire point of this Psychic Awakening stuff for Aeldari is to fight against Slaanesh right?

Personally, I think Harlequins will be skipped over entirely.

They already have some bits out for Harlequins tho.... tomorrow i bet we see something else.

When you say 'some bits', are you referring to the fluff/stories?

Because unless I've missed something there's been no sign of any crunch for Harlequins and I absolutely do not believe GW will release a second Eldar book for psychic awakening.

Its a symbol on the "everyone gets something" and the book is under pre-orders just for them, and they have released stuff with just harlequins (fluff bits), the fluff isnt with the DE/CWE so i'd assume its with the other book (book 2).

Maybe they could release them with the other half of the DE book.

I have a mixed feeling about Drukhari.
It's like GW has made a prototype with good ideas and then no will to finish it.

It is just  little details.
Mercenary without obsessions or abilities to counterbalance them (perhaps except Mandrakes).
Venom with transport capacity limited to 5 whereas SM et CW have their vehicules with a minimum of 6. (1)
Useless auras for kabals and Cults because HQ must be embarked.
Three separate subfaction with only one HQ for each.



Edit : (1) this very morning I send a mail to GW, where I ask them if they made a FAQ because they'll sold a Drazhar and 5 Incubi with a vehicule where they cannot be embarked within it.

I wasn't really expecting fundamental changes to DE though from this book. Yes those are all slightly irritating things, but at this point you just have to work around them. The vehicle capacity in particular is just not gonna change anytime soon, I've long ago accepted I'll have to take a raider with an understrength unit, or a venom for characters.

What does bother me about this release is the Kabal traits are almost all crap, or just outright way worse than the codex ones. It's like all the creativity went into making some cool thematic coven traits, some half decent cult ones, but almost nothing remotely interesting for kabals.

Pretty much, although I would say Soul Bound/Toxin Crafters fliers are better than Black Heart and maybe Flayed Skull too.

The Webway Raiders/Disdain is another build for large squads.

Webway Raiders may also be a way to get a discount on the stratagem. Instead of using the 3CP level, use the 1CP level twice. Maybe a possibility for Mercenary detachments? Drazhar + 3 Incubi units. Drazhar and one unit in Raider, other two units deep striking for 2CP?

One obsession should have been “Mercenaries benefit from this and one other custom obsession”. All that melee crap would be great for Mandrakes or Incubi. I still hope we get a stratagem to do this at some point.

HERO wrote:

Do you think we'll see Slaanesh?  Maybe Harlequins will come then?  I mean, the entire point of this Psychic Awakening stuff for Aeldari is to fight against Slaanesh right?

We’ve been hearing rumors and murmurs about Slaanesh for a while now. The new rumor engine is something Slaanesh too suggesting their most recent fantasy release is only the beginning. I can totally see a book involving Emperor’s Children being up to some psychic no good, and the Harlequins trying to thwart them, and with Ahriman trying to sneak into the Library in the confusion.

withershadow wrote:

Pretty much, although I would say Soul Bound/Toxin Crafters fliers are better than Black Heart and maybe Flayed Skull too.

I'm still not seeing the appeal of Toxin Crafters.

Anyone want to explain to me what's so great about it?

Soulless Samurai wrote:

withershadow wrote:

Pretty much, although I would say Soul Bound/Toxin Crafters fliers are better than Black Heart and maybe Flayed Skull too.

I'm still not seeing the appeal of Toxin Crafters.

Anyone want to explain to me what's so great about it?

Not much, but with necrotoxin missile and splinter cannon that’s 12 shots fishing for double wounds.

That said, I am not sure if I’d ever get a chance to use it since I only got two razorwings (the bomber that completes air wing doesn’t benefit much), and if I’m just bringing the Razorwings, they are in a Black Heart ravager detachment. A trio would be interesting to compare to test of skill ones though.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

withershadow wrote:

Pretty much, although I would say Soul Bound/Toxin Crafters fliers are better than Black Heart and maybe Flayed Skull too.

I'm still not seeing the appeal of Toxin Crafters.

Anyone want to explain to me what's so great about it?

You already need 6s to wound vehicles with Poisoned shots... so you might as well cause 2 damage? Seriously, the need for the unmodified 6 is a big problem. At least in a modified roll Shaimeshi Blades and Parasite's Kiss have a little something going on. The meta is becoming increasingly vehicle oriented, so having that extra wound might have helped in an edition where splitting fire isn't a thing.

withershadow wrote:

Not much, but with necrotoxin missile and splinter cannon that’s 12 shots fishing for double wounds.

I think my issue is that it's nowhere near consistent enough to be significant.

IIRC one of the new Eldar traits does the same thing (2 damage on a 6 to wound with Shuriken weapons). The difference is that Shuriken weapons also gain AP-3 on 6s to wound, so those 2-damage wounds have a far better chance of actually getting through. With Toxin Crafters, you're first fishing for 6s and then hoping that those are the saves your opponent fails.

Plus, the wound allocation process means that against any units of multi-wound models, your opponent can simply order the wounds such that most/all of the 2-damage wounds are wasted.

However, having just written the above, I remembered that this is the only trait Kabal get that actually buffs their shooting. Okay, nevermind, I think I understand why people would take it.

withershadow wrote:

That said, I am not sure if I’d ever get a chance to use it since I only got two razorwings (the bomber that completes air wing doesn’t benefit much), and if I’m just bringing the Razorwings, they are in a Black Heart ravager detachment. A trio would be interesting to compare to test of skill ones though.

I think this is another good point. Black Heart in particular seems almost purpose-built for a Spearhead, and for a Battalion I think I'd still prefer Flayed Skull, which brings a lot of nice bonuses for Warriors in Venoms.

False Son wrote:

You already need 6s to wound vehicles with Poisoned shots... so you might as well cause 2 damage?

Usually if I'm having to resort to shooting poison at vehicles it means I've already lost anyway.

False Son wrote:

 Seriously, the need for the unmodified 6 is a big problem.  At least in a modified roll Shaimeshi Blades and Parasite's Kiss have a little something going on.  The meta is becoming increasingly vehicle oriented, so having that extra wound might have helped in an edition where splitting fire isn't a thing.

Yeah, requiring an unmodified 6 does seem rather unnecessary. As does not allowing artefacts of cruelty to benefit. Neither Lhamaeans nor Parasite's Kiss could be said to be dominating the meta right now (or indeed ever), and the only reason Venom Blades are taken so often is to save points on an HQ who never wants to be in combat anyway.

I don't know, it's like Poison Tongue not allowing its own artefact to benefit from rerolls to wound. it just seems very petty and entirely unnecessary.

I also thing Toxin Crafters is useless.
For splinter weapons I would rather something like "Acid Toxin" given AP1D3 on 6+ to bless.
And if we want damage 2 we have Dis. canon.
GW has forgetten it...like Kabals are shooting units.

The weirdest thing is that the two offensive Kabal traits counter each other. If I wanted to run a melee-heavy Kabal list (for some reason) with a ton of Lhameans and Agonisers, then I wouldn't want to run both Meticulous Flayers and Toxin Crafters because if I get the bonus from one I'm missing out on the bonus from the other...

Simple fix for kabal traits would have been just move master of mutagens from covens to kabals. Covens already have such great shooting traits, given kabals the 6s auto wound for poison weapons, that would actually be something I'd want to take on all my warriors/venoms splinter shots.

Toxin Crafters just doesn't do it for me. If I faced primaris marines every single game, sure it would be handy, but with dissie cannons and dark technomancer talos, I won't be needing more d2 weapons, nor does fishing for a little extra d2 cut it.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Simple fix for kabal traits would have been just move master of mutagens from covens to kabals.

I mean, if we're dreaming, imagine if Dark Technomancers had been a Kabal trait.

Brutal, but I'd have to admit that would be too much. Dissie ravagers wounding everything on +4 or better with 3 damage, that would be real good.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Brutal, but I'd have to admit that would be too much. Dissie ravagers wounding everything on +4 or better with 3 damage, that would be real good.

To be fair, they'd also potentially be taking 3 mortal wounds each time they fired.

But I agree that it would likely be too much.

What if it was limited to poison weapons?

That might be alright. Of course kabals have the greatest concentration of poison weapons, but whole bunch of mortal wounds each time your unit fires is a significant drawback.

My preference for kabals would have just been a strengthened poison weapons trait with no drawbacks. Either Master of Mutagens, 6s is auto wounds, straight +1 to wound for poison weapons vs targets t4 and below something like that. Course that makes Poisoned Tongue look real bad, but hey they could use a buff as well. Toxin crafters is alright, but the focus is just too limited.

I think the verdict we are being handed by GW is that Kabal shooting is already too good.

False Son wrote:

I think the verdict we are being handed by GW is that Kabal shooting is already too good.  

Yes, our splinter arsenal is very lethal.
Almost all other factions troups have ranged weapons wound us on 3+ (5+ our vehicules), with often reroll.
Our Kabalites always wound on 4+ (6+ others vehicules) and without reroll.
And I have learned perhaps they are good as melee fighters.

Sure, just ignore the fact that our basic weapon can damage vehicles unlike previous editions, or that a sh!t load of weapons that used to wound us on a 2+ now wound on a 3+ or the fact that half or more of those same basic guns your bitching about used to ignore our saves entirely. I have never understood why some folks need to be in pit clubbing seals before they think their army is in a healthy spot.

Red Corsair wrote:

Sure, just ignore the fact that our basic weapon can damage vehicles unlike previous editions, or that a sh!t load of weapons that used to wound us on a 2+ now wound on a 3+ or the fact that half or more of those same basic guns your bitching about used to ignore our saves entirely. I have never understood why some folks need to be in pit clubbing seals before they think their army is in a healthy spot.

I'm canadian. It's cultural to club seals.

Red Corsair wrote:

Sure, just ignore the fact that our basic weapon can damage vehicles unlike previous editions, or that a sh!t load of weapons that used to wound us on a 2+ now wound on a 3+ or the fact that half or more of those same basic guns your bitching about used to ignore our saves entirely. I have never understood why some folks need to be in pit clubbing seals before they think their army is in a healthy spot.

It takes 27 and change splinter shots to do a single point of damage to a 3+Sv vehicle. Two rapid firing Venoms not even doing one damage to a Rhino is not really something to sing the praises for.

In contrast, it takes only 12 lasgun shots to do a point of damage to a Raider. So a single squad of guardsmen, one of the cheapest units in the game, with First Rank Second Rank will do 3 Damage to one of our core units.

I agree that our units are now harder to kill, but that's a doubled edged sword. Poison's natural weakness, T3 Mobs, now have their armor save in addition to their natural immunity against poison. That makes match ups against Orks or Guard far more difficult.

I'm not disputing that DE are a good army, just that frustration with how our army operates in some of its core areas is absolutely justified.

Only the typical disintegrator and blaster-heavy Kabal list struggles against Guard infantry. Wyches and Grotesques eat guard infantry en masse.

Regarding orks, our poison is actually as good or better than regular bolters (minus the discipline).

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Toxin Crafters just doesn't do it for me. If I faced primaris marines every single game, sure it would be handy, but with dissie cannons and dark technomancer talos, I won't be needing more d2 weapons, nor does fishing for a little extra d2 cut it.

Even if you're fighting nothing but primaris, it isn't very good. 7ish venoms will net you about 2 extra wounds per turn (and that's if they fail their armor save when they're unwounded). Toxin crafters is garbage.

I thought maybe I was crazy, they were absolutely gushing about it on the latest splintermind. It's like gushing about splinter racks as a vehicle upgrade.

The above being said, I feel very good about the state of DE overall.

The new Kabal obsessions won't compete with BH/FS in tournaments, but there's a ton there for more casual players.

I think some of the new Wych cult and haemonculus stuff is going to be very competitive.

sekac wrote:

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Toxin Crafters just doesn't do it for me. If I faced primaris marines every single game, sure it would be handy, but with dissie cannons and dark technomancer talos, I won't be needing more d2 weapons, nor does fishing for a little extra d2 cut it.

Even if you're fighting nothing but primaris, it isn't very good. 7ish venoms will net you about 2 extra wounds per turn (and that's if they fail their armor save when they're unwounded). Toxin crafters is garbage.

I thought maybe I was crazy, they were absolutely gushing about it on the latest splintermind. It's like gushing about splinter racks as a vehicle upgrade.

I agree, I think the podcast is missing Thors input on this point. Feel he wouldn't be so hyped about the obsessions as the other two. As much as I love em sometimes they can be a bit of a positivity echo chamber when left alone on topics like this.

Sent from Topic'it App

sekac wrote:

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

Toxin Crafters just doesn't do it for me. If I faced primaris marines every single game, sure it would be handy, but with dissie cannons and dark technomancer talos, I won't be needing more d2 weapons, nor does fishing for a little extra d2 cut it.

Even if you're fighting nothing but primaris, it isn't very good. 7ish venoms will net you about 2 extra wounds per turn (and that's if they fail their armor save when they're unwounded). Toxin crafters is garbage.

I thought maybe I was crazy, they were absolutely gushing about it on the latest splintermind. It's like gushing about splinter racks as a vehicle upgrade.

Maybe if I was guaranteed to face primaris marines every game, I'd take it. But as you said you're really not getting that many extra wounds. Then if you compare it to experimental creations/dark technomancers venoms, it's just hilariously bad in comparison.

I really wish one of the kabal traits was experimental creations with a slight rewording, just a flat +1 to wound for poison weapons when targeting anything t4 and below. O well, it is what it is. I am going to have fun playing around with the wych cult and coven traits at least.