Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread

I'm crunching the numbers on some of the new possible combinations, and comparing them to existing options.
This is purely for damage output points efficiency; special rules, tactics, and toughness are not taken into account

First up is the new anti-tank options, comparing Black Heart Writ Ravagers, Dark Technomancer Raiders, and Wych Test of Skill Razorwings.
I've tried to take roughly equal points cost of each unit. The Razorwings also have an extra row for missiles, add the last two rows to get the total damage output. I didn't include the twin splinter rifle, as I am lazy.

Marine

Unit	Weapon	Shots	Hits	Wounds	Unsaved	Damage
3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	27	21	16.33	13.61	13.61
5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	15	10	8.33	6.94	6.94
3 Wych Razorwing	Disintegrators	18	12	8	6.66	6.66
3 Wych Razorwing	Necrotoxin	18	12	10	3.33	3.33

Primaris

Unit	Weapon	Shots	Hits	Wounds	Unsaved	Damage
3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	27	21	16.33	13.61	27.22
5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	15	10	8.33	6.94	13.88
3 Wych Razorwing	Disintegrators	18	12	8	6.66	13.33
3 Wych Razorwing	Necrotoxin	18	12	10	3.33	3.33

Rhino

Unit	Weapon	Shots	Hits	Wounds	Unsaved	Damage
3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	27	21	8.16	6.805	13.61
5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	15	10	5	4.16	12.5
3 Wych Razorwing	Disintegrators	18	12	6	5	10
3 Wych Razorwing	Shatterfield	10.5	7	6.22	3.11	3.11

Imperial Knight 5++

Unit	Weapon	Shots	Hits	Wounds	Unsaved	Damage
3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	27	21	8.16	5.44	10.88
5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	15	10	5	3.33	10
3 Wych Razorwing	Disintegrators	18	12	6	4	8
3 Wych Razorwing	Shatterfield	10.5	7	5.25	2.625	2.625

So the Black Heart Ravagers are still king, but the other two options are very close behind when shooting tanks.
The Wych Cult Flyer Wing looks like a good option to take along with with the Black Heart Ravagers, if you were already running a mech army.
The Coven raiders are an interesting choice, I wasn't expecting them to be so close to regular anti-tank units. However the cost of the unit which goes inside is not taken into account, so you need to have a plan for all those other coven units.


Next I'm going to take a look at Dark Technomancer Haywire Talos vs Harlequin Skyweavers. Also down the line is the various types of Venoms, though the extra combinations makes this one a bit tricky  

Up next is Talos vs Skyweavers.
This is just the haywire weapons shooting. All dice rolls have been averaged, so D3=2, and D6=3.5

Marine

Unit	Weapon	Shots	Hits	Wounds	Unsaved
3 PoF Talos	Haywire Blaster	12	6	3	1.5
3 Techno Talos	Haywire Blaster	12	6	4	2
6 Skyweaver	Haywire Cannon	21	14	7	3.5

Rhino

Unit	Weapon	Shots	Hits	Wounds	Unsaved	1 Haywire	D3 Haywire	Damage
3 PoF Talos	Haywire Blaster	12	6	2	1	2	1	5
3 Techno Talos	Haywire Blaster	12	6	3	1.5	2	2	9
6 Skyweaver	Haywire Cannon	21	14	4.66	2.33	4.66	2.33	11.66

Imperial Knight 5++

Unit	Weapon	Shots	Hits	Wounds	Unsaved	1 Haywire	D3 Haywire	Damage
3 PoF Talos	Haywire Blaster	12	6	1	0.5	2	1	4.5
3 Techno Talos	Haywire Blaster	12	6	2	1	2	2	8
6 Skyweaver	Haywire Cannon	21	14	2.33	1.16	4.66	2.33	10.5

The Skyweavers are still the best at shooting by a long way. The new Techno Talos (TM) are a big improvement on regular Talos shooting, but will not be as tough. You will have to decide for yourself if you need the PoF 4++ or want the extra damage output.

I think that the techno talos are wrong, seems that you have forgotten the +1D

Results of the wound rolls against a Rhino:
1- Missed
2- Missed
3- Mortal wound
4- Hit -1AP D2+ Mortal wound
5- Hit -1AP D2+ D3Mortal wound (2MW)
6- Hit -1AP D2+ D3Mortal wound (2MW)

Total 6 MW and 3D (3  Ap-1 D2 vs s4+)=  9 damage

Results of the wound rolls against a IK:
1-Missed
2- Missed
3- Mortal wound
4- Mortal wound
5- Hit -1AP D2+ D3Mortal wound (2MW)
6- Hit -1AP D2+ D3Mortal wound (2MW)

Total 6 MW and 2D (2  Ap-1 D2 vs s4+)= 8 damage

Rodi Sikni wrote:

I think that the techno talos are wrong, seems that you have forgotten the +1D

You're quite right, fixed above

We all know DL ravagers are not as good, but you should do the math for them real quick to see how well  they can do now and if they are better than BH or not for those that still plays them.

Can someone do 6 units of 10 kabalite warriors using Toxin Crafters obsession in 6 raiders with splinter racks and disintergrators. I have mathhammer app on my phone but i seem to be getting conflicting results compared to mathhammer calculators online.

This would basically be 120 shots within 12', and 18 disintegrator shots. Hit rolls of 6 are two auto hits rather than 1 and wounds of 6 would cause 2 damage for poison weapons.

If you could somehow get a Archon in there you would be re-rolling 1's to hit. I'd like to know how much damage this is doing to Space Marines/Primaris Marines

Elfric wrote:

If you could somehow get a Archon in there you would be re-rolling 1's to hit. I'd like to know how much damage this is doing to Space Marines/Primaris Marines

Only if everyone is on foot, which means you aren't getting the Splinter Rack bonus. I'd like to see a straight comparison between them and Flayed Skull's rerolls though.

Venoms
Included is a venom from each possible (useful) combination.
Flayed Skull, Poison Tongue, Black Heart with Writ, Toxin Crafters, and a combination of the 3 new Coven obsessions: Dark Technomancers, Experimental Creations, Masters of Mutagens
I've also included a column for the kabalite factions when a venom has 5 warriors on board. This gives them an unfair advantage over coven, but is a much more likely use case.
The math on these was quite messy, please do have a look to make sure everything adds up.

NOTE:
I'm going to edit this post to add the full tables as I write them, please be patient.

The Winners
This is split into 1W and 2W lists. The criteria was a marine in cover, so 2+ save, 3+ for flayed skull, and an extra flayed skull against a 2+ armour save.
This order could change with other armour saves, but since marines are the all the rage these days, I've chosen them as the target.

For 1W models

1. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors ignoring cover
   
2. Black Heart /w 5 warriors
   
3. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors
   
4. Flayed Skull ignoring cover
   
5. Poison Tongue /w 5 warriors
   
6. Toxin Crafters /5 warriors
   
7. Techno Experimental
   
8. Techno Mutagen
   
9. Experimental Mutagen
   
10. Black Heart
    
11. Flayed Skull
    
12. Poison Tongue
    
13. Toxin Crafters
    

For 2W models

1. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors ignoring cover
   
2. Techno Experimental
   
3. Techno Mutagen
   
4. Toxin Crafters /5 warriors
   
5. Black Heart /w 5 warriors
   
6. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors
   
7. Flayed Skull ignoring cover
   
8. Poison Tongue /w 5 warriors
   
9. Experimental Mutagen
   
10. Black Heart
    
11. Toxin Crafters
    
12. Flayed Skull
    
13. Poison Tongue
    

Conclusion
Flayed Skulls ability to ignore cover is huge on a 3+ save.
Obviously, venoms with 5 warriors inside perform better than coven.
Black Heart looks good at first due to the Writ rerolls, but is not a common set up.

Just looking at the venom and not the passengers, the new coven obsessions perform very well.
Against 2W targets, Dark Technomancy Coven and Toxin Crafters Kabal do much better. The empty Coven venoms even outperform Kabals with the extra warriors inside.

If you're not sure what to pick, maybe just stick with Flayed Skull.
If you expect to face a lot of primaris or monsters, seriously consider the new Coven options.

1W, 2+ save

Unit	Shots	Hits	Normal Hits	6's to Hit	Wounds	Unsaved	Damage	Venom plus 5 Warriors
Flayed Skull	10	7.77			3.888	0.648	0.648	1.296
Poison Tongue	10	6.666			3.888	0.648	0.648	1.296
Black Heart	10	7.777			4.537	0.756	0.756	1.311
Toxin Crafters	10	6.666			3.333	0.555	0.555	1.111
Techno Experimental	10	6.666			5.555	0.925	0.925
Techno Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5	0.833	0.833
Experimental Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5	0.833	0.833

3+ 1W

Unit	Shots	Hits	Normal Hits	6's to Hit	Wounds	Unsaved	Damage	Venom plus 5 Warriors
Flayed Skull	10	7.777			3.888	1.296	1.296	2.592
Poison Tongue	10	6.666			3.888	1.296	1.296	2.592
Black Heart Venom	10	7.777			4.537	1.512	1.512	2.623
Toxin Crafters	10	6.666			3.333	1.111	1.111	2.222
Techno Experimental	10	6.666			5.555	1.851	1.851
Techno Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5	1.666	1.666
Experimental Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5	1.666	1.666

2+ 2W

Unit	Shots	Hits	Normal Hits	6's to hit	Normal Wounds	Extra D Wounds	Normal Unsaved	Extra D Unsaved	Total Damage	Transport plus passengers
Flayed Skull	10	7.777			3.888		0.648		0.648	1.296
Poison Tongue	10	6.666			3.888		0.648		0.648	1.296
Black Heart	10	7.777			4.537		0.756		0.756	1.311
Toxin Craft	10	6.666			2.222	1.111	0.370	0.185	0.740	1.481
Techno Experimental	10	6.666			5.555		0.925		1.851
Techno Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5		0.833		1.666
Experimental Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5		0.833		0.833

3+ 2W

Unit	Shots	Hits	Normal Hits	6's to hit	Normal Wounds	Extra D Wounds	Normal Unsaved	Extra D Unsaved	Total Damage	Transport plus passengers
Flayed Skull	10	7.777			3.888		1.296		1.296	2.592
Poison Tongue	10	6.666			3.888		1.296		1.296	2.592
Black Heart	10	7.777			4.537		1.512		1.512	2.623
Toxin Craft	10	6.666			2.222	1.111	0.740	0.370	1.481	2.962
Techno Experimental	10	6.666			5.555		1.851		3.703
Techno Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5		1.666		3.333
Experimental Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5		1.666		1.666

Next requests have been:
- Dark Lances
- Warriors in Splinter Rack raiders

I've been doing some comparison of Dark Technomancers with Experimental Creations vs Master of Mutagens, hence for EC and MoM. I'm assuming they have access to a Haemie aura (giving EC a boost vs T5) and I'm considering several things, firstly probability of mortal wounds, secondly damage output versus various targets.

First, let's look at the probability of causing mortal wounds to oneself when using a Venom against an organic target.

Trait	No Mortal Wounds	One Mortal Wound	Two Mortal Wounds	Av. turns to Self Destruct
EC	24.3%	50.0%	25.7%	6 turns
MoM	35.2%	48.3%	16.5%	7 turns

The risks are significantly reduced with MoM, making no damage far more likely than 2, whilst they are about the same probability for EC. The probability of taking any damage at all also drops significantly with MoM. Both are likely to last out the average game if left alone, but EC venoms are going to be softer targets for your opponents' guns.

Next, I'm going to look at damage output against various organic targets (it's the same vs vehicles). I'm not concerned with saving throws here, as they affect both equally, so I'm going to be looking at wounds caused, these are all 2 damage in both cases, so again that isn't taken into consideration.

Trait	Target Toughness	Average Wounds Per Venom
EC	<6	6.7
MoM	<6	6
EC	>5	5.3
MoM	>5	6

My conclusion is that EC venoms are better at softer targets, whilst MoM are better against harder targets. EC Venoms will die faster and perform marginally better against Primaris, Deathguard, Guardsman, Firewarriors, Drones and similar, whilst MoM will survive better and perform slightly better against, Hive Tyrants, Demon Princes, Riptides, Primarchs and such. They perform the same against all vehicles except sentinels and other venoms (were EC has an edge).

New Wych Obsessions
These yielded some surprising results, the new abilities deal quite a lot of damage if you can deliver the wyches.

The test case is 20 wyches charging, using Strife and Cursed Blade, and a combination of Berserk Fugue, Precise Killers, Slashing Impact, and Test of Skill.
Each one also has a +A drug and +S drug line.
I've limited Slashing Impact to only 15 wyches within 1", instead of all 20, in an attempt to more closely resemble how the charge would actually go.

The Winners
Slashing Impact is the big winner here, especially against high toughness high armour targets.
The mortal wounds make up almost half the damage done to marines and plaguebearers, and over half the damage done to Mortarion.
Berserk Fugue is the best of the rest, just about able to keep up with the stable Strife and Cursed Blade, and pulling way ahead when paired with Slashing Impact.
Test of Skill helps a bit with Mortation, but again it's the mortal wounds doing the real damage.

Guardsman (t3, 5+)

Type	Drug	Attacks	Hits	Normal Wounds	Wounds 6+	Unsaved	15 Extra Mortals	Total
Strife	`+A	100	66.666	33.333		22.222		22.222
Strife	`+S	80	53.333	35.555		23.703		23.703
Cursed	`+A	80	53.333	35.555		23.703		23.703
Cursed	`+S	60	40	26.666		17.777		17.777
Beserk + Slashing	`+A	80	66.666	33.333		22.222	5	27.222
Beserk + Slashing	`+S	60	50	33.333		22.2222	5	27.222
Precise + Slashing	`+A	80	53.333	17.777	8.888	19.259	5	24.259
Precise + Slashing	`+S	60	40	20	6.666	18.888	5	23.888

Marine (t4, 3+)

Type	Drug	Attacks	Hits	Normal Wounds	Wounds 6+	Unsaved	15 Extra Mortals	Total
Strife	`+A	100	66.666	22.222		7.407		7.407
Strife	`+S	80	53.333	26.666		8.888		8.888
Cursed	`+A	80	53.333	26.666		8.888		8.888
Cursed	`+S	60	40	26.666		8.888		8.888
Beserk + Slashing	`+A	80	66.666	22.222		7.407	5	12.407
Beserk + Slashing	`+S	60	50	25		8.333	5	13.333
Precise + Slashing	`+A	80	53.333	8.888	8.888	7.407	5	12.407
Precise + Slashing	`+S	60	40	13.333	6.666	7.777	5	12.777

Plaguebearer (-1 hit, t4, 5++, 5+++)

Type	Drug	Attacks	Hits	Normal Wounds	Wounds 6+	Unsaved	15 Extra Mortals	Total
Strife	`+A	100	50	16.666		11.111		7.407
Strife	`+S	80	40	20		13.333		8.888
Cursed	`+A	80	40	20		13.333		8.888
Cursed	`+S	60	30	20		13.333		8.888
Beserk + Slashing	`+A	80	53.333	17.777		11.851	5	11.234
Beserk + Slashing	`+S	60	40	20		13.333	5	12.222
Precise + Slashing	`+A	80	40	13.333		8.888	5	9.259
Precise + Slashing	`+S	60	30	15		10	5	10

Mortarion (t7, 3+,4++,5+++)

Type	Drug	Attacks	Hits	Normal Wounds	Wounds 6+	Unsaved	15 Extra Mortals	Total
Strife	`+A	100	66.666	11.111		3.703		2.469
Strife	`+S	80	53.333	17.777		5.925		3.950
Cursed	`+A	80	53.333	17.777		5.925		3.950
Cursed	`+S	60	40	13.333		4.444		2.962
Beserk + Slashing	`+A	80	66.666	11.111		3.703	5	5.802
Beserk + Slashing	`+S	60	50	16.666		5.555	5	7.037
Precise + Slashing	`+A	80	53.333	0	8.888	4.444	5	6.296
Precise + Slashing	`+S	60	40	6.666666667	6.666	5.555	5	7.037
Beserk + Test of Skill	`+A	80	66.666	22.222		7.407		4.938
Beserk + Test of Skill	`+S	60	50	25		8.333		5.555
Slashing + Test of Skill	`+A	80	53.333	17.777		5.925	5	7.283
Slashing + Test of Skill	`+S	60	40	20		6.666	5	7.777

This is 10 Warriors inside a raider with Splinter Racks

The Winners:
Toxin Crafters are narrowly better than the others on 2w targets.
Otherwise, Flayed Skull and Poison Tongue are the best.
As with the Venoms, if the target is in cover than Flayed Skull are the strongest by a long way.

2+ 1W

Unit	Shots	Hits	Normal Hits	6's to hit	Wounds	Unsaved	Damage
Flayed Skull	20	15.556	11.667	3.889	9.722	1.620	1.620
Poison Tongue	20	13.333	10.000	3.333	9.722	1.620	1.620
Black Heart	20	13.333	10.000	3.333	8.333	1.389	1.389
Toxin Crafter	20	13.333	10.000	3.333	8.333	1.389	1.389

3+ 1W

Unit	Shots	Hits	Normal Hits	6's to hit	Wounds	Unsaved	Damage
Flayed Skull	20	15.556	11.667	3.889	9.722	3.241	3.241
Poison Tongue	20	13.333	10.000	3.333	9.722	3.241	3.241
Black Heart	20	13.333	10.000	3.333	8.333	2.778	2.778
Toxin Crafter	20	13.333	10.000	3.333	8.333	2.778	2.778

2+ 2W

Unit	Shots	Hits	Normal Hits	6's to hit	Normal Wounds	Extra D Wounds	Normal Unsaved	Extra D Unsaved	Total Damage
Flayed Skull	20	15.556	11.667	3.889	9.722		1.620		1.620
Poison Tongue	20	13.333	10.000	3.333	9.722		1.620		1.620
Black Heart	20	13.333	10.000	3.333	8.333		1.389		1.389
Toxin Crafter	20	13.333	10.000	3.333	5.556	2.778	0.926	0.463	1.852

3+ 2W

Unit	Shots	Hits	Normal Hits	6's to hit	Normal Wounds	Extra D Wounds	Normal Unsaved	Extra D Unsaved	Total Damage
Flayed Skull	20	15.556	11.667	3.889	9.722		3.241		3.241
Poison Tongue	20	13.333	10.000	3.333	9.722		3.241		3.241
Black Heart	20	13.333	10.000	3.333	8.333		2.778		2.778
Toxin Crafter	20	13.333	10.000	3.333	5.556	2.778	1.852	0.926	3.704

What this tells me is that 3 Test of Skill Razorwings are our go-to alpha strike planes of choice. Combine that with ignore-heavy Crimsons.. mmm.. good.

Btw, since you're being awesome with the numbers, if I can bother you for a quick second. A hotly-debated topic right now amongst competitive playrs is how good the make your own CW is compared t othe god-supreme Alaitoc.

For Crimson Hunters, specifically, what is better in the meta?
6++ AND Cover if >12" (+1 AS) on Crimson Hunters, or the -1 to Hit from Alaitoic?

The new CW make-your-own can give Crimson Hunters 2+ armor save (Cover) and 6++ invul vs. the auto-include -2 combined To Hit from Alaitoic + Hard to Hit.

The Wych numbers are interesting, although it’s worth considering that Raider Squads max out at 10, and Fugue Wyches are quite vulnerable to morale.

And as you add special weapons and power from pain and a succubus buff, the better quality attacks should benefit more. So overall damage output favors Fugue/Impact Wyches only when charging and even then is roughly the same vs typical GEQ/MEQ targets. You lose morale resistance for potential vs tough targets. Tough call.

I'm sort of skeptical that in practice you'll be able to consistently get 15 Wych models within 1" of a unit immediately after they've charged. The numbers still look good even without that, but just bear in mind that it probably won't be quite as stark a difference in real world games.

Its when you finish the charge move for each model within 1" correct? o yeah you will not get 15 in unless its a 3" charge lol.

I agree, maybe 10 would be a more realistic number.
In horde vs horde (ie plaguebearers of tzaangors), getting a large front on the charge is possible. Similarly with large base monsters like Morty, a lot of wyches could get in range.
The main takeaway is that mortal wounds are very good.

Another consideration is if your wyches are there to deal damage or are a utility unit. Often, they are a utility unit to tarpit and clog objectives, holding in combat for several rounds. In this case, Cursed Blade are much more useful due to ignoring morale and not needing the charge (or first round of combat) to do damage.


I'll post up the crimson hunter options, but the answer is Aloitoc are still the best, and a 6++ is not that valuable.

AlCorps wrote:

I agree, maybe 10 would be a more realistic number.
In horde vs horde (ie plaguebearers of tzaangors), getting a large front on the charge is possible. Similarly with large base monsters like Morty, a lot of wyches could get in range.
The main takeaway is that mortal wounds are very good.

Another consideration is if your wyches are there to deal damage or are a utility unit. Often, they are a utility unit to tarpit and clog objectives, holding in combat for several rounds. In this case, Cursed Blade are much more useful due to ignoring morale and not needing the charge (or first round of combat) to do damage.


I'll post up the crimson hunter options, but the answer is Aloitoc are still the best, and a 6++ is not that valuable.

yeah this build IMO isnt for anti horde, Cursed blade is for that, i'f i take them for custom it will be to have a melee threat for big stuff.

It's not going to show up in mathammer but there's a pretty good argument for both Red Grief and Acrobatic Display if you want your Cults to focus on lockdown and utility. On paper it sort of feels to me like you can feasibly run a full Cult army now, with each detachment focusing on either tarpitting, horde mulching or large target killing.

I was thinking about acrobatic display for that purpose, it does make wyches double down on their tarpit roll and make them even better at it. If you were going to run acrobatic display though, it probably would be in a cult army with a seperate detachment for reavers/hellions, since there are other combinations that are far better for both of those units.

Somebody wanted to see dark lances vs disintegrators.
The units are 3 Black Heart Ravagers with Writ, 5 Techno Raiders, 3 Test of Skill Razorwings, and 2 Test of Skill Void Ravens

The Winners;
As stated before, Black Heart Ravagers are still the best.
For the Razorwings, the disintegrator is very close to the dark lance against a rhino, and better against a knight.
On the Void Ravens, the dark scythes perform very well, being better against a rhino and only 0.25 wounds behind void lances against a knight per Void Raven.

Conclusion
Multishot weapons are the best.
It's already common practice to use disintegrators on Ravagers.
There's no reason not to use disintegrators and dark scythes on the planes, the difference against vehicles is tiny, and the extra shots are useful against a variety of targets.

Target	Unit	Weapon	Shots	Hits	Wounds	Unsaved	Damage	Combined Weapons
t4 3+ 2w	3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	27	21	16.333	13.611	27.222
		Dark Lances	9	7	6.806	6.806	13.611
	5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	15	10	8.333	6.944	13.889
		Dark Lances	5	3.333	2.778	2.778	5.556
	3 Wych Razorwing	Disintegrators	18	12	8.000	6.667	13.333	16.667
		Dark Lances	6	4	3.333	3.333	6.667	10.000
		Necrotoxin	18	12	10.000	3.333	3.333
	2 Wych Void Raven	Dark Scythes	8	5.333	4.444	4.444	8.889	10.963
		Void Lances	4	2.667	2.222	2.222	4.444	6.519
		Shatterfield	7	4.667	4.148	2.074	2.074
t7 3+ 10w	3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	27	21	8.167	6.806	13.611
		Dark Lances	9	7	5.444	5.444	19.056
	5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	15	10	5.000	4.167	12.5
		Dark Lances	5	3.333	2.778	2.778	12.5
	3 Wych Razorwing	Disintegrators	18	12	6.000	5.000	10.000	13.111
		Dark Lances	6	4	3.333	3.333	11.667	14.778
		Shatterfield	10.5	7	6.222	3.111	3.111
	2 Wych Void Raven	Dark Scythes	8	5.333	4.444	4.444	8.889	10.963
		Void Lances	4	2.667	2.222	2.222	7.778	9.852
		Shatterfield	7	4.667	4.148	2.074	2.074
t8 3+ 5++ 10w	3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	27	21	8.167	5.444	10.889
		Dark Lances	9	7	4.083	2.722	9.528
	5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	15	10	5.000	3.333	10.0
		Dark Lances	5	3.333	2.222	1.481	6.667
	3 Wych Razorwing	Disintegrators	18	12	6.000	4.000	8.000	10.625
		Dark Lances	6	4	2.667	1.778	6.222	8.847
		Shatterfield	10.5	7	5.250	2.625	2.625
	2 Wych Void Raven	Dark Scythes	8	5.333	3.556	2.370	4.741	6.491
		Void Lances	4	2.667	2.222	1.481	5.185	6.935
		Shatterfield	7	4.667	3.500	1.750	1.750

I was curious how much Test of Skill affected our main Razorwing weaponry and made the following simple calculation in excel. This comparison is only about stock damage vs ToS damage.



Especially for Disintegrators wounding on a 4+ is a massive buff and makes them 50% better on average.
Lances improve by about 33% against Knights and 25% against Rhinos (but I guess we won't be taking them).

For the sake of completeness, I also included Voice Lances (wounding Titans on 2+ sounds amazing) but they only get as good as Disintegrators. I guess it is eye-opening just how powerful Disintegrators are when they have +1 to wound.

It will definitely help, but won't give us a magic knight-killing tool. The shooting of 3 Test of Skill Disint should knock off 8 wounds of a Titan (when at full BS). Without ToS it's 5,33 wounds on average.

Out of curiosity I also looked at how ToS affects Missiles and Splinter Rifles. With the Shatterfield Missiles from 3 Razorwings, you should also get another 2-3 wounds on Titan.


Shockingly, Splinter Rifles are still terrible against vehicles when hitting on a 5+.

Used profiles:
- Knight: T8, 3+, 5++
- Rhino: T7, 3+

I would love to see this pinned. Having a comprehensive database on meta targets is fantastic knowledge to have when designing a competitive list.

AlCorps wrote:

I agree, maybe 10 would be a more realistic number.
In horde vs horde (ie plaguebearers of tzaangors), getting a large front on the charge is possible. Similarly with large base monsters like Morty, a lot of wyches could get in range.
The main takeaway is that mortal wounds are very good.

Another consideration is if your wyches are there to deal damage or are a utility unit. Often, they are a utility unit to tarpit and clog objectives, holding in combat for several rounds. In this case, Cursed Blade are much more useful due to ignoring morale and not needing the charge (or first round of combat) to do damage.


I'll post up the crimson hunter options, but the answer is Aloitoc are still the best, and a 6++ is not that valuable.

Thanks man.

I think when analyzing our options with the new supplement, we should also be looking at competitive options outside the codex. Obviously, having access to Alaitoc Crimson Hunters only get better because of the otions they have available as part of their Exarch powers.

For example, they can get (and can be chosen pre-battle)
> +1 damage on all weapons vs. targets that fly
> Ignore Heavy so they hit on BS2+
> Re-roll 1s for damage vs. ground targets

Ofc, these replace Marksman's Eye, which is a re-roll 1s to hit, but you can pay 1 CP to take it on top of it. In a game vs. a bunch of Riptides and Repulsors? Take Aerial Predator for +1 damage vs. Fly. I wish we had this diversity, but I'm not complaining because I love planes

@AIcorps

I think you forgot to add the +1 damage for Technomancers 4 unsaved wounds should be 12 damage not 8. If I missed something please let me know.

@Alcorps, that's great work brother, thanks for doing the math, interesting stuff with Toxin Crafters. Better against Primaris heavy meta.

I suspected that Slashing Wyches were going to be good.