Custom Obsessions Mathammer Thread

Dalamar wrote:

I think you forgot to add the +1 damage for Technomancers

I did indeed, fixed now.

Thinking more about crimson hunters, the defensive and offensive craftworld and exarch powers become very interesting.
It's one thing to compare how tough the plane can be, or how much output it can have.
The tricky and more realistic scenario is maximising toughness while still taking an improved output trait. I don't think this can be fairly mathammered.

I did up the defensive powers. I won't post the table, but the answer is that Aloitoc always comes out the best, except when facing a BS2+ -4 ap weapon (does such a weapon really exist in large numbers?), where the 5++ exarch power comes in more useful.
Aloitoc is particularly important against BS4+, cutting damage by a third. (think Tau, Smasha Gunz, IG tanks)
Not taken into account was the 5+++ against mortal wounds, which can also be useful if your local meta is using smite spam or haywire.

The best offensive combination is "reroll a single hit and wound roll", ignore cover craftworld, and Ignore Heavy penalty.
Why "Ignore Heavy penalty" instead of the other exarch abilities? You can get ignore cover from craftworld, and Ignore Heavy penalty works against all targets. +1 Damage Against Fly is slightly better if you know you are fighting flyers.

So, some options for 'optimal balanced' CHE might look like:
- Aloitoc, Ignore Heavy penalty
- +1 Cover, "reroll a single hit and wound roll", and 5++

Some situational builds might look like:
- Super tough: +1 Cover, 5++, 5+++ against mortals
- Kill flyers: "reroll a single hit and wound roll", Ignore Cover, +1 Damage Against Fly.

A note on "reroll a single hit and wound roll".
This feels like the best output trait, but is almost impossible to math correctly using just excel.
It would have to be simmed, firing 1 weapon first and deciding whether to use a reroll, then the other weapon, using the reroll if still available.

All of this is further complicated when regular Crimson Hunters and Hemlocks are included in the flyer wing, different traits are more/less optimal for them.

Interesting, I would think that Ignore Heavy would be better in almost all cases for damage, especially as your damage profile degrades from enemies shooting back.

The reason why I asked is because of the new meta consisting of Iron Hand Repulsors or Stormhawk Interceptors. Stormhawks are especially worrisome because of their -2 to hit them and +1 to hit us, which means Alaitoc CHExs are 4s to hit with ignore heavy with re-roll 1s if we keep Marksman's Eye. They would in-turn be 4s to hit us, 5s with the strategem on a single target.

I mean, I think we're kinda boned againts IH Stormhawks anyway, but its worth knowing what our chances are.

AlCorps wrote:

Dalamar wrote:

I think you forgot to add the +1 damage for Technomancers

I did indeed, fixed now.

That's great. but that was just an example from your previous post you fixed the techomancers vs T7 but you need to add the +1 damage to all the other calculations. All the other categories are missing the +1 damage.

Not sure if anyone talked about it yet, but the kabal trait for the cursed grief style morale buff where only 1 model can flee could be pretty good. We could run foot kabal and/or large squads of kabalite warriors and not have to fear losing them to morale. Maybe along with the poison buff tactic for more damage poison weapons.

Edit: whoops meant to post this in the other tactics discussion thread sorry about that.

Recovering from the onslaught that was Phoenix Rising FAQ and Chapter Approved, we search through the ashes for some more math!

This time I've done a wide variety of units against a particular target, and ranked them from best to worst.
The unit count is roughly 400 points worth. The damage-per-point is the normalized damage done per point spent on that unit.
As expected, anti-tank units are bad against infantry, and better against vehicles.
There are some very odd results for some units, so remember to look at whether a unit is actually practical for your army, not just the output. The main culprit here is the Techno Cronos, who is now the most lethal unit in the codex, at 8" range...

The best way to use this is probably to compare two units you are thinking about, and see which one ranks higher.
First post is against infantry targets.

TLDR:
Black Heart ravagers are still great
Techno Venoms are great until you reach 2+ saves
The flyers are average.

Short Hand:
BH = Black Heart
Techno = Dark Technomancer
Master = Master of Mutagen
ToS = Test f Skill
PoF = Prophets of Flesh

Target	Unit	Weapon	Damage Per Point
t3 5+ 1w	5 Techno Cronos	Spirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex	0.051851852
	4 Techno Liq Talos	Twin Liquifier + Haywire	0.051756885
	6 Techno Master Venom	Cannon + Rifle	0.051282051
	3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	0.038888889
	3 ToS Razorwing	Disintegrators + Necrotoxin	0.033716475
	9 Skyweavers	Haywire	0.032407407
	2 ToS Void Raven	Dark Scythes + Shatterfield	0.024925178
	3 ToS Razorwing	Dark Lances + Necrotoxin	0.022988506
	5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	0.020833333
	2 ToS Void Raven	Void Lances + Shatterfield	0.018191171
	3 Techno Reaper Stationary	2d6 mode	0.017283951
	3 BH Ravager	Dark Lances	0.016203704
	4 Techno Talos	Haywire	0.014172336
	3 Techno Reaper Moving	2d6 mode	0.012962963
	4 PoF Talos	Haywire	0.011337868
	5 Techno Raider	Dark Lances	0.006944444

Target	Unit	Weapon	Damage Per Point
t4 3+ 1w	3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	0.032407407
	5 Techno Cronos	Spirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex	0.025925926
	6 Techno Master Venom	Cannon + Rifle	0.025641026
	4 Techno Liq Talos	Twin Liquifier + Haywire	0.025641026
	3 ToS Razorwing	Disintegrators + Necrotoxin	0.022988506
	2 ToS Void Raven	Dark Scythes + Shatterfield	0.019753086
	5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	0.017361111
	3 BH Ravager	Dark Lances	0.016203704
	3 ToS Razorwing	Dark Lances + Necrotoxin	0.01532567
	9 Skyweavers	Haywire	0.014583333
	2 ToS Void Raven	Void Lances + Shatterfield	0.01301908
	3 Techno Reaper Stationary	d6 mode	0.012962963
	3 Techno Reaper Moving	d6 mode	0.009722222
	5 Techno Raider	Dark Lances	0.006944444
	4 Techno Talos	Haywire	0.006802721
	4 PoF Talos	Haywire	0.005102041

Target	Unit	Weapon	Damage Per Point
t4 3+ 2w	3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	0.064814815
	5 Techno Cronos	Spirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex	0.051851852
	6 Techno Master Venom	Cannon + Rifle	0.051282051
	4 Techno Liq Talos	Twin Liquifier + Haywire	0.051282051
	3 ToS Razorwing	Disintegrators + Necrotoxin	0.038314176
	5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	0.034722222
	2 ToS Void Raven	Dark Scythes + Shatterfield	0.0332211
	3 BH Ravager	Dark Lances	0.032407407
	3 Techno Reaper Stationary	d6 mode	0.025925926
	3 ToS Razorwing	Dark Lances + Necrotoxin	0.022988506
	2 ToS Void Raven	Void Lances + Shatterfield	0.019753086
	3 Techno Reaper Moving	d6 mode	0.019444444
	9 Skyweavers	Haywire	0.014583333
	5 Techno Raider	Dark Lances	0.013888889
	4 Techno Talos	Haywire	0.013605442
	4 PoF Talos	Haywire	0.005102041

Target	Unit	Weapon	Damage Per Point
t5 2+ 4w	5 Techno Cronos	Spirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex	0.058333333
	3 Techno Reaper Stationary	d6 mode	0.043209877
	3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	0.038888889
	3 BH Ravager	Dark Lances	0.037808642
	4 Techno Liq Talos	Twin Liquifier + Haywire	0.035612536
	5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	0.033333333
	3 Techno Reaper Moving	d6 mode	0.032407407
	6 Techno Master Venom	Cannon + Rifle	0.025641026
	5 Techno Raider	Dark Lances	0.023148148
	2 ToS Void Raven	Dark Scythes + Shatterfield	0.0221474
	3 ToS Razorwing	Disintegrators + Shatterfield	0.021569462
	3 ToS Razorwing	Dark Lances + Shatterfield	0.021058606
	2 ToS Void Raven	Void Lances + Shatterfield	0.019902731
	4 Techno Talos	Haywire	0.006802721
	9 Skyweavers	Haywire	0.006481481
	4 PoF Talos	Haywire	0.002267574

Next is the vehicle targets

TLDR:
Dark Technomancer units really shine here
Haywire is obviously good
The flyers are still average
The Techno Reaper does a lot of damage here

Target	Unit	Weapon	Damage Per Point
t7 3+ 10w	3 Techno Reaper Stationary	d6 mode	0.058333333
	4 Techno Liq Talos	Twin Liquifier + Haywire	0.052231719
	5 Techno Cronos	Spirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex	0.051851852
	9 Skyweavers	Haywire	0.048611111
	3 BH Ravager	Dark Lances	0.04537037
	3 Techno Reaper Moving	d6 mode	0.04375
	3 ToS Razorwing	Dark Lances + Shatterfield	0.033971903
	2 ToS Void Raven	Dark Scythes + Shatterfield	0.0332211
	3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	0.032407407
	5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	0.03125
	5 Techno Raider	Dark Lances	0.03125
	4 Techno Talos	Haywire	0.030612245
	3 ToS Razorwing	Disintegrators + Shatterfield	0.030140485
	2 ToS Void Raven	Void Lances + Shatterfield	0.029854097
	6 Techno Master Venom	Cannon + Rifle	0.022792023
	4 PoF Talos	Haywire	0.017006803

Target	Unit	Weapon	Damage Per Point
t8 3+ 10w	5 Techno Cronos	Spirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex	0.051851852
	4 Techno Liq Talos	Twin Liquifier + Haywire	0.049382716
	3 Techno Reaper Stationary	d6 mode	0.046666667
	9 Skyweavers	Haywire	0.04375
	3 Techno Reaper Moving	d6 mode	0.035
	3 BH Ravager	Dark Lances	0.034027778
	3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	0.032407407
	5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	0.03125
	3 ToS Razorwing	Disintegrators + Shatterfield	0.029022989
	2 ToS Void Raven	Void Lances + Shatterfield	0.028872054
	3 ToS Razorwing	Dark Lances + Shatterfield	0.027490421
	4 Techno Talos	Haywire	0.027210884
	2 ToS Void Raven	Dark Scythes + Shatterfield	0.026851852
	5 Techno Raider	Dark Lances	0.025
	6 Techno Master Venom	Cannon + Rifle	0.022792023
	4 PoF Talos	Haywire	0.015306122

Target	Unit	Weapon	Damage Per Point
t8 3+ 5++ 10w	5 Techno Cronos	Spirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex	0.051851852
	4 Techno Liq Talos	Twin Liquifier + Haywire	0.049382716
	9 Skyweavers	Haywire	0.04375
	3 Techno Reaper Stationary	d6 mode	0.031111111
	4 Techno Talos	Haywire	0.027210884
	3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	0.025925926
	5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	0.025
	3 ToS Razorwing	Disintegrators + Shatterfield	0.024425287
	3 Techno Reaper Moving	d6 mode	0.023333333
	6 Techno Master Venom	Cannon + Rifle	0.022792023
	3 BH Ravager	Dark Lances	0.022685185
	2 ToS Void Raven	Void Lances + Shatterfield	0.021015713
	3 ToS Razorwing	Dark Lances + Shatterfield	0.020338442
	2 ToS Void Raven	Dark Scythes + Shatterfield	0.019668911
	5 Techno Raider	Dark Lances	0.016666667
	4 PoF Talos	Haywire	0.015306122

Potential side note here: 5man Haywire scourge, still ok?

T7 3+ 10w 0.048 dmg/point
T8 3+ 10w 0.042 dmg/point
T8 3+ 5++10w 0.042 dmg/point

good offence on the scourge, but if I had to choose three 5man scourge and 2 BH ravagers, it's hard not to take the ravagers.

And no matter how much I want it to be a thing, dark lance scourge still not a thing.

Moving
T7 3+ 10w 0.039 dmg/point
T8 3+ 10w 0.019 dmg/point
T8 3+ 5++10w 0.013 dmg/point

Stationary
T7 3+ 10w 0.052 dmg/point
T8 3+ 10w 0.039 dmg/point
T8 3+ 5++10w 0.026 dmg/point

Are those with the new Point costs? I saw you said with CA just making sure.

My numbers were with scourge at 12 pts, dark lance at 15pts, haywire at 8pts
did not include the shardcarbine damage in any of the numbers.

I am really surprised by the Cronos results!

Yeah me too.... But its one of those units that needs is extremely swingy and it tries to be support, anti-horde and anti-elite at the same time, so while it looks good you wont have that good of a result in actual play b.c you still need to pick 1 target do to its small range (8-18") I have 3 of them and tried them out a few times and everytime it was odd b.c the math says they should do X damage, but with 2 random D6's on the profiles, 1 being a flamer so you need to be in melee range, you really just shoot 1 weapon for 1 or 2 turns at best, you need them right on the front line to get full use out of them.

I will try them again now that they are cheaper (15pts for a unit) and in DT it might be fun. I always hated that their WS is a 4+ tho.

Finally, i always played it, 3 Cronos gets 3 Probes you could get 3 Heals, but i'm not 100% sure if that is how it actually works, we play at my local a little bit of RAI for some units, what is the actual proper way to play it?

Please, could you add the calculations for tecno master venom with double cannon?

I was going to say that yes, you would definitely get three heals for three cronos, because why wouldn't you? But yeah, looking at the rule it's intentionally written as "if a cronos with a spirit probe inflicted any unsaved wounds this fight phase, pick one drukhari unit within 6" and..."

It's an odd way of writing it, but, actually, I would say that yes, you'd get three heals. Each spirit probe is an individual rule- so if ANY cronos on the board does stuff in melee, ALL cronos get to heal something within 6". Perhaps a rule oversight? Eitherway, that line of questioning led me to a nice TIL.

Great analysis!
Thank you! I love digging through numbers myself

Does your analysis take into account the wasted excess damage weapons like dark lances loose when damage exceeds a model's wound count?

Pippolele wrote:

Does your analysis take into account the wasted excess damage weapons like dark lances loose when damage exceeds a model's wound count?

This is all using the new CA points values. Damage is capped at the number of wounds on the target (So against Primaris Marines, the max damage is 2)

What I didn't account for is wasted spill over from multiple shots hitting the Centurions.
So the Techno Raiders are always doing 3 damage, but in reality in could be 3 damage, then 1 to kill the model, then 3 again, then 1 to kill the next model. Similar situation for the Cronos.
In practice, this can be mitigated by shooting a Techno Raider first, then a ravager (or something else) to kill the model, then the next Techno Raider, etc.

As mentioned above, the Techno Cronos and Techono Liquifier Talos are complete outliers and should not be taken as "the best"; they only work in large numbers, in perfect conditions, when within 8" range.
To further exaggerate this, I think I included the points for a Spirit Probe on the Cronos, which they may not need if you just want to shoot, so the price could be even cheaper.
This it is a great way to highlight what happens when you combine "+1 to wound" abilities with "on a 6+, do X" abilities. Probably why all new proc-based special rules are on unmodified dice rolls.

AlCorps wrote:

This is all using the new CA points values. Damage is capped at the number of wounds on the target (So against Primaris Marines, the max damage is 2)

excellent

AlCorps wrote:

What I didn't account for is wasted spill over from multiple shots hitting the Centurions.
So the Techno Raiders are always doing 3 damage, but in reality in could be 3 damage, then 1 to kill the model, then 3 again, then 1 to kill the next model. Similar situation for the Cronos.

That's indeed my second concern and something that I would want to see incorporated

AlCorps wrote:

In practice, this can be mitigated by shooting a Techno Raider first, then a ravager (or something else) to kill the model, then the next Techno Raider, etc.

Sorry, don't understand.

AlCorps wrote:

As mentioned above, the Techno Cronos and Techono Liquifier Talos are complete outliers and should not be taken as "the best"; they only work in large numbers, in perfect conditions, when within 8" range.
To further exaggerate this, I think I included the points for a Spirit Probe on the Cronos, which they may not need if you just want to shoot, so the price could be even cheaper.

Understood. Thanks

Are you planning to add other units to this list like:
Tantalus
Reavers
Reavers with blasters
?

AlCorps wrote:

I agree, maybe 10 would be a more realistic number.
In horde vs horde (ie plaguebearers of tzaangors), getting a large front on the charge is possible.

You could simply run your numbers based on 10 model wych units rather than 20.
then it is possible to immagine all 10 of them making it within 1" and you wuoldn't loose out on 5 or even 10 slashing impact rolls.

10 model wych units are a thing after all.

DingWop wrote:

Potential side note here:  5man Haywire scourge, still ok?  

T7 3+ 10w  0.048 dmg/point
T8 3+ 10w  0.042 dmg/point
T8 3+ 5++10w  0.042 dmg/point

Indeed:

Against T7 3+ 10w thay rank:
5th overall
3rd for distance damage (>8")
1st if you only consider codex options and distance damage (>8")

Against T8 3+ 10w thay rank:
5th overall
3rd for distance damage (>8")
1st if you only consider codex options and distance damage (>8")

T8 3+ 5++ 10w
4th overall
2nd for distance damage (>8")
1st if you only consider codex options and distance damage (>8")[/b]

DingWop wrote:

good offence on the scourge, but if I had to choose three 5man scourge and 2 BH ravagers, it's hard not to take the ravagers.  

It also depends on the rest of your army:
Maybe you are going a vehicle denial strategy?
Maybe you are already maxed out on ravagers?
Maybe you are trying to fill out an outrider detachment?
Maybe you have no kabal detachments?

AlCorps wrote:

Venoms
Included is a venom from each possible (useful) combination.
Flayed Skull, Poison Tongue, Black Heart with Writ, Toxin Crafters, and a combination of the 3 new Coven obsessions: Dark Technomancers, Experimental Creations, Masters of Mutagens
I've also included a column for the kabalite factions when a venom has 5 warriors on board. This gives them an unfair advantage over coven, but is a much more likely use case.
The math on these was quite messy, please do have a look to make sure everything adds up.

NOTE:
I'm going to edit this post to add the full tables as I write them, please be patient.

The Winners
This is split into 1W and 2W lists. The criteria was a marine in cover, so 2+ save, 3+ for flayed skull, and an extra flayed skull against a 2+ armour save.
This order could change with other armour saves, but since marines are the all the rage these days, I've chosen them as the target.

For 1W models

1. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors ignoring cover
   
2. Black Heart /w 5 warriors
   
3. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors
   
4. Flayed Skull ignoring cover
   
5. Poison Tongue /w 5 warriors
   
6. Toxin Crafters /5 warriors
   
7. Techno Experimental
   
8. Techno Mutagen
   
9. Experimental Mutagen
   
10. Black Heart
    
11. Flayed Skull
    
12. Poison Tongue
    
13. Toxin Crafters
    

For 2W models

1. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors ignoring cover
   
2. Techno Experimental
   
3. Techno Mutagen
   
4. Toxin Crafters /5 warriors
   
5. Black Heart /w 5 warriors
   
6. Flayed Skull /w 5 warriors
   
7. Flayed Skull ignoring cover
   
8. Poison Tongue /w 5 warriors
   
9. Experimental Mutagen
   
10. Black Heart
    
11. Toxin Crafters
    
12. Flayed Skull
    
13. Poison Tongue
    

Conclusion
Flayed Skulls ability to ignore cover is huge on a 3+ save.
Obviously, venoms with 5 warriors inside perform better than coven.
Black Heart looks good at first due to the Writ rerolls, but is not a common set up.

Just looking at the venom and not the passengers, the new coven obsessions perform very well.
Against 2W targets, Dark Technomancy Coven and Toxin Crafters Kabal do much better. The empty Coven venoms even outperform Kabals with the extra warriors inside.

If you're not sure what to pick, maybe just stick with Flayed Skull.
If you expect to face a lot of primaris or monsters, seriously consider the new Coven options.

1W, 2+ save

Unit	Shots	Hits	Normal Hits	6's to Hit	Wounds	Unsaved	Damage	Venom plus 5 Warriors
Flayed Skull	10	7.77			3.888	0.648	0.648	1.296
Poison Tongue	10	6.666			3.888	0.648	0.648	1.296
Black Heart	10	7.777			4.537	0.756	0.756	1.311
Toxin Crafters	10	6.666			3.333	0.555	0.555	1.111
Techno Experimental	10	6.666			5.555	0.925	0.925
Techno Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5	0.833	0.833
Experimental Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5	0.833	0.833

3+ 1W

Unit	Shots	Hits	Normal Hits	6's to Hit	Wounds	Unsaved	Damage	Venom plus 5 Warriors
Flayed Skull	10	7.777			3.888	1.296	1.296	2.592
Poison Tongue	10	6.666			3.888	1.296	1.296	2.592
Black Heart Venom	10	7.777			4.537	1.512	1.512	2.623
Toxin Crafters	10	6.666			3.333	1.111	1.111	2.222
Techno Experimental	10	6.666			5.555	1.851	1.851
Techno Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5	1.666	1.666
Experimental Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5	1.666	1.666

2+ 2W

Unit	Shots	Hits	Normal Hits	6's to hit	Normal Wounds	Extra D Wounds	Normal Unsaved	Extra D Unsaved	Total Damage	Transport plus passengers
Flayed Skull	10	7.777			3.888		0.648		0.648	1.296
Poison Tongue	10	6.666			3.888		0.648		0.648	1.296
Black Heart	10	7.777			4.537		0.756		0.756	1.311
Toxin Craft	10	6.666			2.222	1.111	0.370	0.185	0.740	1.481
Techno Experimental	10	6.666			5.555		0.925		1.851
Techno Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5		0.833		1.666
Experimental Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5		0.833		0.833

3+ 2W

Unit	Shots	Hits	Normal Hits	6's to hit	Normal Wounds	Extra D Wounds	Normal Unsaved	Extra D Unsaved	Total Damage	Transport plus passengers
Flayed Skull	10	7.777			3.888		1.296		1.296	2.592
Poison Tongue	10	6.666			3.888		1.296		1.296	2.592
Black Heart	10	7.777			4.537		1.512		1.512	2.623
Toxin Craft	10	6.666			2.222	1.111	0.740	0.370	1.481	2.962
Techno Experimental	10	6.666			5.555		1.851		3.703
Techno Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5		1.666		3.333
Experimental Mutagen	10	6.666	5	1.666	5		1.666		1.666

Kabal venoms have a different to hit success rate based on their affiliation:

For BH you count an archon for both writ and overlord auras - OK
For the other Kabals however you don't count the overlord aura of a hypothetical archon.

I think If you include the archon in BH you should include it in the calculations for the other Kabals as well.

Passengers:
I am pondering whether to analyse their fire output limited to 4 models as the 5th one will almost always carry a blaster and be targeting vehicles. What do you think?

Finally we could also analyse the scenario of a coven venom with kabal warriors as passengers (poison tongue and toxin craft come to mind)

A lot of math in this thread, but what's the TLDR for recommendations based on the above mathhammering on the ideal build vs. a marine armored-soaked meta?

Seems to be:
> Play a lot of DT Raiders w/ Dissies
> Play Test of Skill Razorwings w/ Dissies
> BH + Ravagers still good, but that's about it for Kabal
> Unless.. you're fielding all Flayed Skull Venoms w/ Warriors inside

Is that accurate?

Adding to the excellent work of @AICorps I have analyzed the following units against vehicles:

-Tantalus: no bonus, BlackHeart/Living Muse, Dark Technomancers
-Archon with Blaster: BlackHeart/Living Muse, embarked (no bonus)
-Reavers: with Blasters or Heat Lance, Test of Skill or no obsession
-Scourges with Haywire
-5 Warriors with a Blaster: (no obsessions)

Brief analysis at the end of the tables:

Target	Unit	Weapon	Damage Per Point
t7 3+ 10w	3 Techno Reaper Stationary	d6 mode	0.058333333
	4 Techno Liq Talos	Twin Liquifier + Haywire	0.052231719
	5 Techno Cronos	Spirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex	0.051851852
	Haywire Scourges	Haywire + shard carabine	0.0495169
	9 Skyweavers	Haywire	0.048611111
	3 BH Ravager	Dark Lances	0.04537037
	3 Techno Reaper Moving	d6 mode	0.04375
	DT Tantalus	Pulse Disintegrators	0.041666
	5 Warriors with Blaster	4 shard carabines + 1 Blaster	0.039401
	BH Archon with Blaster	Blaster	0.0357649
	3 ToS Razorwing	Dark Lances + Shatterfield	0.033971903
	2 ToS Void Raven	Dark Scythes + Shatterfield	0.0332211
	3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	0.032407407
	ToS Reavers with Blaster	2 shardrifles + Blaster	0.0321937
	5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	0.03125
	5 Techno Raider	Dark Lances	0.03125
	4 Techno Talos	Haywire	0.030612245
	BH Tantalus	Pulse Disintegrators	0.0302469
	3 ToS Razorwing	Disintegrators + Shatterfield	0.030140485
	2 ToS Void Raven	Void Lances + Shatterfield	0.029854097
	ToS Reavers with Heat Lance	Shardrifles + Heat Lance	0.0273024
	Archon (embarked) with Blaster	Blaster	0.0262762
	Reavers with Blaster	2 shardrifles + 1 Blaster	0.0262108
	6 Techno Master Venom	Cannon + Rifle	0.022792023
	no bonus Tantalus	Pulse Disintegrators	0.0222222
	Reavers with Heat Lance	2 shardrifles + 1 Heat Lance	0.0190246
	4 PoF Talos	Haywire	0.017006803

Target	Unit	Weapon	Damage Per Point
t8 3+ 10w	5 Techno Cronos	Spirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex	0.051851852
	4 Techno Liq Talos	Twin Liquifier + Haywire	0.049382716
	3 Techno Reaper Stationary	d6 mode	0.046666667
	Haywire Scourges	1 Shard Carabine and 4 Highwires	0.0446859
	9 Skyweavers	Haywire	0.04375
	3 Techno Reaper Moving	d6 mode	0.035
	3 BH Ravager	Dark Lances	0.034027778
	DT Tantalus	Pulse Disintegrators	0.0333333
	3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	0.032407407
	5 Warriors with Blaster	4 shardrifes +1 Blaster	0.0311268
	5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	0.03125
	ToS Reavers with Heat Lance	shardrifes +Heat Lance	0.0297716
	3 ToS Razorwing	Disintegrators + Shatterfield	0.029022989
	2 ToS Void Raven	Void Lances + Shatterfield	0.028872054
	ToS Reavers with Blasters	shardrifes + Blaster	0.0284900
	3 ToS Razorwing	Dark Lances + Shatterfield	0.027490421
	4 Techno Talos	Haywire	0.027210884
	2 ToS Void Raven	Dark Scythes + Shatterfield	0.026851852
	BH Archon Blaster	Blaster	0.0268236
	5 Techno Raider	Dark Lances	0.025
	6 Techno Master Venom	Cannon + Rifle	0.022792023
	BH Tantalus	Pulse Disintegrators	0.0226851
	Reavers with Blasters	Shardrifles + Blaster	0.0202279
	Archon (embarked) with Blaster	Blaster	0.0197072
	Reavers with Heat Lance	Shardrifles + Heat Lance	0.019024
	no bonus Tantalus	Pulse Disintegrators	0.0166666
	4 PoF Talos	Haywire	0.015306122

Target	Unit	Weapon	Damage Per Point
t8 3+ 5++ 10w	5 Techno Cronos	Spirit Syphon + Spirit Vortex	0.051851852
	4 Techno Liq Talos	Twin Liquifier + Haywire	0.049382716
	Haywire Scourges	1 Shardcarabine + 4 Haywires	0.0446859
	9 Skyweavers	Haywire	0.04375
	3 Techno Reaper Stationary	d6 mode	0.031111111
	4 Techno Talos	Haywire	0.027210884
	DT Tantalus	Pulse Disintegrators	0.0266666
	3 BH Ravager	Disintegrators	0.025925926
	5 Techno Raider	Disintegrators	0.025
	3 ToS Razorwing	Disintegrators + Shatterfield	0.024425287
	3 Techno Reaper Moving	d6 mode	0.023333333
	5 Warriors with Blaster	4 Shardrifles + 1 Blaster	0.0228526
	6 Techno Master Venom	Cannon + Rifle	0.022792023
	3 BH Ravager	Dark Lances	0.022685185
	ToS Reavers with Heat Lance	Shardrifles + Heat Lance	0.0214938
	2 ToS Void Raven	Void Lances + Shatterfield	0.021015713
	ToS Reavers with Blasters	Shardrifles + Blaster	0.0205128
	3 ToS Razorwing	Dark Lances + Shatterfield	0.020338442
	2 ToS Void Raven	Dark Scythes + Shatterfield	0.019668911
	BH Tantalus	Pulse Disintegrators	0.0181481
	BH Archon Blaster	Blaster	0.0178824
	5 Techno Raider	Dark Lances	0.016666667
	4 PoF Talos	Haywire	0.015306122
	Reavers with Blasters	Shardrifles + Blaster	0.014245
	Reavers with Lance	Shardrifles + Heat Lance	0.0135061
	no bonus Tantalus	Pulse Disintegrators	0.0133333
	Archon (embarked) with Blaster	Blaster	0.0131381

Brief Analysis:

-Haywire Scourges are our most efficient vehicle hunting unit at a distance (especially against ++ saves)

-I won’t miss Blaster Archons

-I won’t be taking Reavers for their Blasters although if I have to, I would play them with a Test of Skill obsession: Heat Lances don’t even shine at half distance.

-A Dark Technomancer Tantalus is as point efficient as 3 Blackheart Ravagers.
It is not worth playing it outside of Dark Technomancers. (not even with full BH Archon support)

I don't wanna be "that guy" who says just take skyweavers...but if we are talking purley statistically here, I think it is worth mentioning haywire scourge are blown out of the park by skyweavers. 2 skyweavers is about the same number of shots at 4 scourge, with a little less reliability and that's before considering they are tougher, faster, and have a good melee attack.

The point on a dark technomancer tantalus is very interesting though. Alone, I would not take DT just for the tantalus, but that's before considering you could throw some raiders in that detachment so you're looking at a tantalus plus say 4-5 raiders, all with DT, PLUS haywire talos. That is a coven list with some actual good shooting, I'd look at filling out that list with a bunch of wracks, maybe a cheap kabal battalion for cps and warriors to ride in the raiders.

One small point on reavers with heat lances. I actually do find them appealing, not because heat lances are particularly good vs vehicles, but because they are very good against multi-wound infantry with high armor. Particularly thinking of centurions, no invul makes that ap-5 super tasty. Plus if reavers survive later into the game (granted not super likely..) heat lances make great character snipers, once screens are cleared out reavers have the movement to put them right next to a character for some sniping. I'd still take them with test of skill because if there's no multi-wound infantry to deal with, yeah I want them to at least not be wounding vehicles on 5s.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

I don't wanna be "that guy" who says just take skyweavers...but if we are talking purley statistically here, I think it is worth mentioning haywire scourge are blown out of the park by skyweavers. 2 skyweavers is about the same number of shots at 4 scourge, with a little less reliability and that's before considering they are tougher, faster, and have a good melee attack.

I think you certainly have a point about Skyweavers.
Scourges have the advantage of fitting in just about any drukhari detachment whereas Skyweavers require you to invest in a Harlequin detachment which might not be possible or require additional units as a tax.
Finally I see people preferring scourges over Skyweavers whenever they are trying to go for a vehicle denial strategy (e.g. all infantry horde)

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

The point on a dark technomancer tantalus is very interesting though. Alone, I would not take DT just for the tantalus, but that's before considering you could throw some raiders in that detachment so you're looking at a tantalus plus say 4-5 raiders, all with DT, PLUS haywire talos. That is a coven list with some actual good shooting, I'd look at filling out that list with a bunch of wracks, maybe a cheap kabal battalion for cps and warriors to ride in the raiders.

That's precisely how I was planning to maximise the benefits of DT: fitting in all the raiders and venoms.

The fact that a DT tantalus has the same output efficiency of 3BH Ravagers could see play in the following scenarios:
I ran out of detachments and can't fit in a BH spearhead one.
I don't have the extra 75 points that a BHArchon +3ravagers costs compared to a single tantalus.
I already have a BH spearhead detachment and I want to double up on firepower by adding a Tantalus.

Lord Asvaldir wrote:

One small point on reavers with heat lances. I actually do find them appealing, not because heat lances are particularly good vs vehicles, but because they are very good against multi-wound infantry with high armor. Particularly thinking of centurions, no invul makes that ap-5 super tasty. Plus if reavers survive later into the game (granted not super likely..) heat lances make great character snipers, once screens are cleared out reavers have the movement to put them right next to a character for some sniping. I'd still take them with test of skill because if there's no multi-wound infantry to deal with, yeah I want them to at least not be wounding vehicles on 5s.

I will be analysing these same units against infantry targets later on.