Melee based DE 2k idea

so after a lot of searching and contemplating i came up with this. the whole idea is to be hard to kill with the -1 damage, t5 jet bikes and heamonculus aura on hard to kill stuff. it would protect me till i can get into melee. very polar opposite roles to have each do what they are good at. 1 grots unit for webway. thought about adding n banshees some how to avoid over watch but opted to go for the vehicles absorb it instead? or maybe its better as ynnari? its only a battalion and a spearhead so 9 points and no agent of vect or dissies. i was hoping my melee talos and the raiders could take em down. I have never played a melee based list before so any ideas on what i can change and if it could be competitive?

battalion -cult of the cursed blade (+! str)

hq
2x succubus +1 atk, blast pistol, (1 warlord - stim addic- +2 lead)

troops
2x10 wyches 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 str
2x5 wyches 1x net, (1 +2 move, 1 +1 ws)

elite
2x 5 incubi

fast attack
3x 6 reavers 2x grav talon, +1 T

Spearhead - artists of flesh - -1 damage

hq
heamonculus -nightmare doll, electro whip

elite
2x 4 grots

heavy
4x Talos - chain flails, mirco scalpel, stinger pod

transport
5x dissie raider

1998 total

I play fairly melee heavy Drukhari often with a combination of wyches/talos, and I think it does work. Important to note though that wyches require a bit of finesse to use, especially since marines got shock assault you cannot expect 5 wyches to fight 5 intercessors and survive, they need larger numbers to gang on up on them or some support.

Overall, I think the idea of your list is solid, though I like to have some ranged support when I'm using a melee focused army. 6 raiders with dissies will do some work, though ideally I like to fit in 2 razorwings in the cult detachment, preferably with the test of skill trait. You could probably drop the grots and a raider if you wanted to fit those in. Also I think it's worth mentioning while I like reavers, they still feel very hit or miss for me, sometimes they are very useful, others your opponent sees the 1 t5 unit in your army on turn 1 without an invul save, and then they don't last long. It's really lots of talos/wyches that are going to carry the day for a melee list, though I do like incubi more these days as well.

Two other small notes. First off, adrenalight is wasted on the two succubi. Unfortunately succubi are just meh, unless you run red grief for the blood glaive, or the triptych whip/precision blows combo, they just aren't that punchy. Far better to give a whole unit of wyches extra attacks, give your throwaway drugs like serpentin and hypex to the succubi. Also if you can find the pts, I would say Drazhar is mandatory for a melee Drukhari list given how punchy he is, not to mention he buffs those incubi really well.

The Combat Drugs are all off. You can't give all 3 Reaver units Painbringer unless you had a minimum of 13 units with the Combat Drugs rule.

I echo Lord Asaldir's thought on the Succubus drug set up. It is more important for that she get in position to lend her aura to your Wychs than to fight. Even if you have to Advance, and not charge in order to get in range. Meanwhile, +1WS is not wasted on a Succubus using Arcite Glaive. That restores your 2+ to hit. If you really want to hit on 2s with your Wychs, use Architect of Pain.

Perhaps the most important thing about Combat drugs, however, is remembering that they are chosen before the game begins. That gives you lots of flexibility in tailoring your forces to your enemy. Consider setups for facing different kinds of enemies, like T3 ones, or ones that hit at S3. Being T5 on your Reavers won't help any more than T4. It could be more helpful to have T4 Wychs and +1 attack Reavers in those circumstances.

False Son wrote:

The Combat Drugs are all off.  You can't give all 3 Reaver units Painbringer unless you had a minimum of 13 units with the Combat Drugs rule.

You only need to have 1 of each combat drug. After that, he can take as many painbringer he wants. He's fine.

False Son wrote:

Perhaps the most important thing about Combat drugs, however, is remembering that they are chosen before the game begins.  That gives you lots of flexibility in tailoring your forces to your enemy.  Consider setups for facing different kinds of enemies, like T3 ones, or ones that hit at S3.  Being T5 on your Reavers won't help any more than T4.  It could be more helpful to have T4 Wychs and +1 attack Reavers in those circumstances.

While this is technically true, a lot of tournaments ask you to fix them in your list, "to speed things up". It sucks sometimes.

dumpeal wrote:

You only need to have 1 of each combat drug. After that, he can take as many painbringer he wants. He's fine.

...i've been playing it wrong this whole time.

Quote :

While this is technically true, a lot of  tournaments ask you to fix them in your list, "to speed things up". It sucks sometimes.

Yes. I've had to fight with TOs about this. I can get away with it some times if i bring different cards indicating my intended Combat Drug choices, depending on the opponent.

I would love to fit in drazhar and lelith hesperax along with toughness 5 reavers, 2 squads of 5 +1t wyches, to do that requires 1 warlod trait, which on careful consideration should be the heamonculus to give a +1T death star when trying to null deploy. this revisement tries to do it all but i kinda feel like i have too many chiefs and not enough Indians, the +1 command point kinda helps as well as the +1A to the reavers. I think making them pretty scary. also my original list should of had 5 raiders instead of 6 I wrote the wrong number it is fixed now. Whats the rule with Ynnari now i can take them in a normal detachment do there abilities/psychic traits change to affect drukari?

battalion -cult of the cursed blade (+! str)

hq
1x succubus , blast pistol, ( +2 move)
1x Drazhar

troops
1x10 wyches 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 str
1x10 wyches 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 Atk
2x5 wyches 1x net, (1 +2 lead, 1 +1 ws)

elite
2x 5 incubi


Spearhead - artists of flesh - -1 damage

hq
heamonculus -nightmare doll, electro whip (reroll 1 for FNP aura warlord trait)

elite
1x 4 grots

heavy
4x Talos - chain flails, mirco scalpel, stinger pod

transport
5x dissie raider

outrider - cult of strife - +1A on charge  (maybe test of skill, slashing impact is better with drazar as hq and 2 razorwings

HQ
lelith hesperax

fast attack
3x 6 reavers 2x grav talon, +1 T each

1978 total

moving around a few things i think this list would be better i would like to add drazhar instead of Lelith i mean both would be nice but i dont think there is room in the list. more talos would be nice and more raiders but i cant have everything. this list still has the 3 units of reavers with +1 toughness bring them to 5 and the extra attack. almost every time i bring reavers they die super fast. I was hopeing they would have to split there heavy firepower between reavers, raiders, and talos.  is it worth it to try and string out the drugs for doubles and triples or should i just call it and try to just bring the good drugs. also if i keep lelith should she be the warlord? i really wish i could use alliance of agony without a kabal detachment. there is only 1 unit of grots and im not sure if thats ok for a melee army considering every time i have used them them have outperformed there cost.  the extra raider would allow for different combinations of troops and hq's as well also could deploy the whole list in 10 drops (not a thing anymore but, could matter)

battalion -cult of the cursed blade (+! str)

hq
2x succubus  ( +2 move)


troops
1x10 wyches 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 str
1x10 wyches 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 Atk
2x5 wyches 1x net, (1 +2 lead, 1 +1 ws)

elite
2x 5 incubi


Spearhead - artists of flesh - -1 damage

hq
heamonculus -nightmare doll, electro whip

elite
1x 4 grots

heavy
4x Talos - chain flails, mirco scalpel, stinger pod

transport
6x dissie raider

outrider - cult of strife - +1A on charge  (maybe test of skill, slashing impact is better with drazar as hq?)

HQ
lelith hesperax- warlord

fast attack
3x 6 reavers 2x grav talon, +1 T each

1998 total

Regarding your earlier question on Ynnari psychic powers, no their buff powers never work on keyword Drukhari. Need to make your units Ynnarri and then keyword reborn Drukhari for that.

I really think you should have Drazhar in the list, especially with 2 incubi units for him to buff. I'd definetly throw him in the reaver outrider, 20 more pts over Lelith isn't too hard and boy is he so much more punchy than Lelith. Test of skill is a great trait, but it's wasted on reavers who don't take blaster/heat lances. I'd probably go red grief on them, super good trait for reavers if you're not going for the test of skill with heat lance or blaster reavers.

Also one minor change, I'd throw haywire blasters on the talos. Splinter pods won't do much, and haywire blasters won't do a ton either but a few extra mortal wounds on vehicles here and there is a lot more useful than the splinter pods.

sumguy777 wrote:

moving around a few things i think this list would be better i would like to add drazhar instead of Lelith i mean both would be nice but i dont think there is room in the list.

You may want to, if for no other reason, Lelith is fixed as Cult of Stryfe.  She needs to be ina  Stryfe detachment or they will lose their Obsession.

Quote :

also if i keep lelith should she be the warlord?

If she is not the Warlord she cannot get her Warlord trait.  She is not worth taking without that Warlord trait, IMO.  Drazhar would also have to be the Warlord to get hit fixed Warlord trait.  But, i do think he can manage without it, if there were more crucial Warlord traits needed elsewhere in the army.

Quote :

i really wish i could use alliance of agony without a kabal detachment.

Worth pointing out, your army has to have an Archon as the army Warlord to qualify.  Lelith and Drazhar, even in an army with a Kabal detachment would not be able to be the Warlord and you be able to use Alliance of Agony.

Yea adter thinking about it i was leaning toward drazar over lelith. lelith sound like a great addition but drazer is just better. I could rework it to have the raiders with test of skill and slashing impact. Really not sure havent played since early 8th ed so im unaware how quickly the raiders will die? If i change the detachment to red grief ill take the blood glave sucubuss with a 3++. Put drazar in the battalion. Hopefully i get a chance this week to try it out. Is 9 or 10 enough command points? I dont have a way to farm any? The talos i wasnt sure what to take haywire is prolly better though. I was mainly concerned about there range.

Yeah definetly go Drazhar.

There's a bunch of traits that are good on raiders, you could go dark technomancers with the dissies which is solid, as is test of skill. But artisans of flesh is very solid as well so no reason to get rid of that. Depends on who you're facing for how long the raiders last, some matchups like imperial fists are very rough for our vehicles, though artisans of flesh helps.

9-10 cps is enough. 2 battalions for 13-14 is ideal, but I don't feel like Drukhari are a super cp reliant army, you can make do with around 10.

so i have been playing around with different things i feel like agents of vect and the cp farming with labyrinthine cunning is too good to ignore. plus black heart improving power from pain helps melee quite a bit. so i haven't actually ever played with the court of the archon before i think in any ed. so this is theory crafting but, sslyth might be decent, ur-ghul's seem quite good for mass attacks 6 attacks at str 4 on the charge seem kinda good. with this new take i don't have any room for grots though. so that kinda hurts. every thing except bikes, talos and raiders wont be able to get shot at first turn. im pretty sure bikes will be gone first turn as they are the only thing not reducing wounds. so maybe i should just cut em? I was also throwing around the idea of charging the 3rd detachment to ynnari to pick you a psycher with incubi as ynnari im fairly certain i can still board the transports and benefit from drazhar as well as SFD and stratagems. mainly wanted the melee doom effect.  third option was the outrider detachment which still maybe correct. heck i even considered trying to do a court with the new melee obsessions. i feel as though im missing something? anyway here is another variation on the list.

battalion -cult of the cursed blade (+! str)

hq
1x succubus , net, ( +2 move) (treacherous deceiver trait)
1x Drazhar

troops
1x10 wyches 1x power sword, 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 str
1x10 wyches 1x power sword, 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 Atk
1x10 wyches 1x power sword, 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 ws

fast attack
1x 9x bikes w/ 3x grav talons +1T


Spearhead - artists of flesh - -1 damage

hq
heamonculus -nightmare doll, electro whip (reroll 1 for FNP aura warlord trait)


heavy
5x Talos - chain flails, mirco scalpel, heywire blaster

transport
6x dissie raider

vangard- kabal of black heart

Court of archon- 1x sslyth, 3x ur-ghul

hq- archon huskblade, writ of living muse (works for melee too i guess), labyrinthine cunning trait

elite
3x incubi x5

strats used - AOA, and 1 extra relic

command points left 8
points used 2000

sumguy777 wrote:

so i have been playing around with different things i feel like agents of vect and the cp farming with labyrinthine cunning is too good to ignore. plus black heart improving power from pain helps melee quite a bit. so i haven't actually ever played with the court of the archon before i think in any ed. so this is theory crafting but, sslyth might be decent, ur-ghul's seem quite good for mass attacks 6 attacks at str 4 on the charge seem kinda good.

Sslyth and Ur-ghouls do not have Power From Pain.  Black Heart's Obsession would only benefit them in getting the 6++ ignore injury.  The general reroll associated with the Court of the Archon is plenty beneficial, though.  Writ of the Living Muse also works on Sslyth and Ur-Ghouls.

Alternatively, Lhamaens with the same Archon would hit on 2+ with reroll, wound on 2+ with reroll, and cause Mortal Wounds on a 4+.  My advice is to ignore Court of the Archon units as fighting units.  each model is a separate unit requiring a charge roll.

I thought the court had power from pain. What do you think about an incubi vangard as ynnari. Incubi gain a key word instead of losing. So they should be able to take the -1 damage raiders or venoms. Getting melee doom, fighting first, +1 on charge. And drazhars bubble. Could even slide the jet bikes in there.

In your Spearhead, you cant take 6 Raiders. Your 5 Talos are 3 units, not 5 (unless youre doing an unbound army) By having 3 units of Talos + Haemonculus you can only have 4 Raiders, unless of course you forgot to add something to the list to give you the 5th and 6th units.

Did they change something that prevented you from taking a talos as a unit of 1? So i would have 5 units of 1 each.

sumguy777 wrote:

Did they change something that prevented you from taking a talos as a unit of 1? So i would have 5 units of 1 each.

You can't have more than 3 units of the same entry, except for troops and transport. It's the infamous "rule of 3".

i could rearrange it for the raiders. i do lose the 2 talos though which kinda sucks. maybe something like this?

battalion -cult of the cursed blade (+! str)

hq
1x succubus, blast pistol ( +2 move)
1x succubus, blast pistol (+1T)

troops
1x10 wyches 1x power sword, 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 str
1x10 wyches 1x power sword, 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 Atk
1x10 wyches 1x power sword, 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 ws


Spearhead - artists of flesh - -1 damage

hq
heamonculus -nightmare doll, electro whip
drazher - warlord

4x grots


heavy
3x 1x Talos - chain flails, mirco scalpel, heywire blaster

transport
6x dissie raider

vangard- Ynnari -1 cp shrine of the whispering god

hq- The yncarne - gaze of Ynnead (smite) , unbind souls (melee doom)

elite
3x incubi x5

strats used - -1 Shrine of the whispering god (incubi)

command points left 9
points used 2000

sumguy777 wrote:

i could rearrange it for the raiders. i do lose the 2 talos though which kinda sucks. maybe something like this?

battalion -cult of the cursed blade (+! str)

hq
1x succubus, blast pistol ( +2 move)
1x succubus, blast pistol (+1T)

troops
1x10 wyches 1x power sword, 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 str
1x10 wyches 1x power sword, 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 Atk
1x10 wyches 1x power sword, 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 ws


Spearhead - artists of flesh - -1 damage

hq
heamonculus -nightmare doll, electro whip
drazher - warlord

4x grots


heavy
3x 1x Talos - chain flails, mirco scalpel, heywire blaster

transport
6x dissie raider

vangard- Ynnari -1 cp shrine of the whispering god

hq- The yncarne - gaze of Ynnead (smite) , unbind souls (melee doom)

elite
3x incubi x5

strats used - -1 Shrine of the whispering god (incubi)

command points left 9
points used 2000

You can have more than 3 talos. You can't have more than 3 UNITS of talos. You can have 2 units of 2 and 1 unit of 1.

I wouldnt he apposed to adding 3 more talos. What should i cut? Is the incubi ynnari vanguard a good idea?

To me, you dont have enough things that do damage. Your list is very weak in the damage dealing areas.
I do think the Ynnari detachment isn't needed. You can get 3 Talos for almost the price of the Yncarne. Those 3 will help you with damage output.
I would think about switching up the drugs on the Wyches too. make a Succubus +WS so they hit on 2's on the time with their Glaive, because the Wyches will hit on 2's Turn 3 and make that drug useless. 10 T4 wyches can be very useful as opposed to 1 T4 Succubus.

So if i cut a raider and the ynnari detachment move drazher to the cursed blade and cut a succubus i can add 3 more talos and a red grief outrider. With
Succubus with blood glaive, blast pistol +2 move
2 x 5x scourges with heywire blaster
1x 6x reavers with 2 grav talon, +1 T

for reference here is the list again little easier to look at. this doesn't have any incubi though and i am not sure if that correct or not. my only concern with cutting the yncarne is that he does move around the battlefield quite quickly with out screening units he would probably just die quickly though. the wyches +1 ws i thought would be better because i would still get a reroll on 1's with the succubus (which i believe would be all misses, since you subtract 1 from the hit instead of decreasing the weapon skill)

battalion -cult of the cursed blade (+1 str) (450 points)

hq
1x drazher - warlord
1x succubus, (+1 ws) - not sure on this

troops
1x10 wyches 1x power sword, 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 str
1x10 wyches 1x power sword, 2x hydra, 1x net, +1 Atk
1x10 wyches 1x power sword, 2x hydra, 1x net, +2 leadership


Spearhead - artists of flesh - -1 damage (1204 points)

hq
heamonculus -nightmare doll, electro whip

elite
1x 4x grots

heavy
3x 2x Talos - chain flails, mirco scalpel, heywire blaster

transport
5x dissie raider


Outrider- red grief (move, advance, charge) (346 points)

hq- succubus- the Blood Glaive, Blast pistol, +2 move,

fast attack
2x - 5x Scouges- 4x heywire blaster 1x shardcarbine - (extra anti-tank, maybe i have too much now?)

1x - 6x reavers- 2x grav talons, (+1T) - (thought 5 toughness might let them last longer with so many target with high toughness on the board and 6 isn't to much to hide in cover, maybe i should have more or split into 2 squads for objective grabbing?


-1 cp for extra relic (nightmare doll seemed vital to keeping my only haemonculus alive)

drops - 11 to 19 depending on lay out probably 12 with haemonculus giveing toughness boost to raiders and talos.

command points left 9
points used 2000

False Son wrote:

If she is not the Warlord she cannot get her Warlord trait.  She is not worth taking without that Warlord trait, IMO.  Drazhar would also have to be the Warlord to get hit fixed Warlord trait.  But, i do think he can manage without it, if there were more crucial Warlord traits needed elsewhere in the army.

Actually, has it been confirmed that Lelith is eligible for Alliance of Agony? She has the Succubus keyword, but the text of the stratagem uses Succubus as a title,

"Actually, has it been confirmed that Lelith is eligible for Alliance of Agony? She has the Succubus keyword, but the text of the stratagem uses Succubus as a title,"

The stratagem uses the Succubus/Haemonculus keywords - not their datasheet title - so Lelith would be eligible for AoA, as would Urien.