40k 9th Editon

I suspect that the morale system may be modified so as to remove the advantage that MSU currently have over max-sized units, as that's one huge flaw in the current morale system.

I really hope moral isn't removing models. Thats a stupid system. I like it better when the unit is penalized. Like 1/2 its movements, can only snap shot, etc..

Not me. I want a return to units fleeing, or something else catastrophic happening. Removing models is ok, but fails to meet the middle in a satisfying way. The way Morale is currently tracked is cumbersome (having to keep track of casualties for each unit, each turn) and requires far too many casualties to really inflict damage. It also does weird things like mobs of Orks losing 20 models and the other 10 being instantly lost.

Right now it is more of a "oh, right" thing, than something everyone worries about.

Also, i can't help but be annoyed at how Power From Pain amounts to a possible 1 extra model lost. Sure, 1 Primaris is better than 1 Ork Boy. We have ways of leaning into Power From Pain, like Black Heart, The Art of Pain, Anima Vitae and Architects of Pain. But, there's just not enough reward for doing so.

For the most part, I actually like what Battleshock does for the game. If you killed 8 out of 10 guys, you don't need to waste more shooting at an almost dead unit since that will be taken care of in the morale phase.

It's not the best system, but I really can't come up with something smarter myself. Sure, failed leadership could convey debuffs, but I'm afraid you are just going to convolute the game unnecessarily (everything you need to keep track of is bad).

Despite its shortcomings, I think Battleshock itself is _fine_. However, I think the leadership characteristic is underutilized. You could also say that infantry that is charged by a monster also need to take a morale test. Let's say for each failed point one guy cannot shoot overwatch or flees outright. Small things like that.

You could also say that leadership affects coherency and higher leadership units can be placed further apart. There are many little aspects that you could knobs that you could use leadership for.

8th took away two important aspects of Morale:

-Inflicting Morale checks that had nothing to do with lost models.

-Characters forced to take Morale tests.

I may be in the minority on this one, but i though Tank Shock was an extremely useful tool in previous editions that i am unhappy to have lost.

False Son wrote:

Tank Shock was an extremely useful tool in previous editions that i am unhappy to have lost.

Yeah, for Dark Eldar so was initiative.
Having wyches swing at IN. 8 was awesome. Now? our "speed" means squat.

Tank shock was basically useless against marines, since they auto-regrouped immediately after falling back, with no penalty. Though I guess you could get one kill out of it, if the marine player tried death-or-glory, and failed.

The problem with flee models is more than 1 or 2 can flee, at times 1/2 the unit ran away. That feels terrible b.c they didn't put a lot of effort into them. Or if you need to hold the objective for 1 more turn and your "last stand guys" fled when in 40k they should just stand there and die via gun fire/melee if its the last stand. It just never felt good at all for me. Forcing units to fallback/reground/go to ground was fine. Its a punishment but one that keeps the game going.

I do miss Inti too, but i don't miss needing to ask or knowing all the gernades (defense/assault) each unit had. Sure it was easy for the most part, like marines, necrons, all had the same, but there were still many times i had to ask and look up what they had. I still miss it, when combats goes on for multi rounds we always got to go first, that was nice.

krayd wrote:

Tank shock was basically useless against marines, since they auto-regrouped immediately after falling back, with no penalty. Though I guess you could get one kill out of it, if the marine player tried death-or-glory, and failed.

Not if you had a unit within 6 inches of the unit falling back. Again, the movement phase being dumbed down in 8th.

False Son wrote:

krayd wrote:

Tank shock was basically useless against marines, since they auto-regrouped immediately after falling back, with no penalty. Though I guess you could get one kill out of it, if the marine player tried death-or-glory, and failed.

Not if you had a unit within 6 inches of the unit falling back.  Again, the movement phase being dumbed down in 8th.

Though fallback move was 2D6 inches, so it wasn't too difficult for them to get out of 6 inches range. Then in their turn, they'd fall back 2D6 more inches, immediately regroup, and fire back at your tank, since marines regrouped at no penalty.

Granted, they wouldn't be able to fire heavy weapons, at least.

The old rules had a little a details when they could have made 50 of the rules 100% less detailed to keep the same thing and feeling. But 8th is way to streamline for sure. I'm glad they are adding in some more rules (On the QnA they said they streamline 8th to much) so i'm assuming they are adding ore details to rules.

What I'd like to see change for morale is:

1) Move back to 2D6 Ld tests.

2) If you lose 25% of the squad in movement, psychic, or shooting phases, take an Ld test at the end of phase. Lose a model for every point you roll over your leadership.

3) At the end of fight phase, total up all unsaved wounds dealt by both players in each combat. Whoever scored the fewest unsaved wounds loses combat, and each unit takes an Ld test modified by the difference in wounds dealt. Lose a model for each point you roll over the unit.


My reasoning:
I understand the move to Battleshock, and like that it avoids the sloppiness and time consumption of actually falling back and regrouping models. But it is an overly simple system, that also requires a good amount of book keeping throughout a turn to track properly.

By making it happen per phase, but not modifying the leadership test, you just knock models over until the end of the phase, figure out if it's 25%, take a test, and remove models. No more tracking models killed over multiple phases.

It also gives horde armies a big break. Volume fire is threatening enough, the ridiculous nearly doubling wounds you can do in 8th is unfair. Orks in combat may take a ton of wounds but by modifying their Ld test by the difference in wounds, rather than just wounds received, they can fight back and keep from running in droves.

The biggest downside is unlucky rolls could have a unit losing additional wounds to Ld multiple times a turn which could feel abusive. However, that 25% threshold becomes a narrower and narrower target, that it's unlikely to occur on all but large squads of low Ld units with no leadership support. In other words, chaff.

And finally, it establishes combat as the higher risk, but potentially more decisive phase, as it should be. Shooting is low risk, it should have a low reward when it comes to morale damage.



P.S. I'd also like pinning to exist, but I'd prefer that to be a weapon or psychic power special rule, as opposed to an aspect of any particular phase.

I am really hoping, once Forgeworld get around to it , for some competitive rules for my Corsair force.

Void Prince wrote:

I am really hoping, once Forgeworld get around to it , for some competitive rules for my Corsair force.

Oh Yes. New forgeworld rules will hopefully good. IIRC the rules are now being done by the codex team as well, so they'll hopefully mesh better.

Fingers-crossed my hierodule is usable

Sarcron wrote:

Void Prince wrote:

I am really hoping, once Forgeworld get around to it , for some competitive rules for my Corsair force.

Oh Yes. New forgeworld rules will hopefully good. IIRC the rules are now being done by the codex team as well, so they'll hopefully mesh better.

Fingers-crossed my hierodule is usable

We can but hope, but I get the feeling that there will be little or no new stuff (models etc) to go with it. However, we shall just have to wait and see...

Just give me back viable hornets, troop jetbikes with splinter cannons and a warp hunter that doesn't suck and I will be fielding corsairs again!

I will be really interested to see how the hinted blast weapon rules manifest. If Shredders get the full 6 attacks each we stand to be really benefit.

I saw this picture making its rounds. I find it very interesting if it is in fact like AoS. I have heard (I don't play AoS) that you acquire CP at the beginning of the round to use.
I think only having a finite pool per round and even pregame could help us a ton. This help would come in the form of hurting others; i.e. Space Marines. I know when SM, the players by me spend 5-7 CP in Warlord Traits, extra Relics, etc. Curving this to stop having so many of these pregame will benefit us and will enable us to have less bookkeeping in general.
Though, this could hurt us because if, for example you only get say 4-5 CP at the beginning of the round, this would mean one Vect Strat uses almost if not all of the CP for the round.
Thoughts on this phase? Also, maybe some of you who play AoS could talk about how the "Hero Phase" (I think is what it's called) works.

Command Phase

Yeah, that's just from the community page. Here

"The Command phase is a quick new addition to the turn sequence. In this phase, Battle-forged armies will acquire new Command points and spend the ones they have on certain Stratagems."

It's looking like it'll just be a 40k variant on the hero phase.

I'd just introduce morale damage chart, similiar to vehicle damage chart, where full units gets max morale and smaller units got a bracket lower. And characters should definately gives bonuses to leadership, making full units harder to fail. Leadership on character must be aura. I dont get why we have higher LD on characters now, its useless.

So a half squad without a commander nearby should be fair game for leadership fail.

And keep current battle shock as it is.

Truth to be told when half of the big squad is wiped it should feel moreal losses, but smaller squads must also be affected. They arent now.

How much do you think our points going to go up? 10pt Warriors? lets speculate?

Dalamar wrote:

How much do you think our points going to go up?  10pt Warriors? lets speculate?

Can we not?

Without knowing the general level of points changes for armies across the board, speculating is just an invitation for people to complain or pre-suppose that Drukhari will be picked on.

They have overtly said "without an established meta or best army", it ensures that on day one everyone starts in the same place.

Silverglade wrote:

Dalamar wrote:

How much do you think our points going to go up?  10pt Warriors? lets speculate?

Can we not?

Without knowing the general level of points changes for armies across the board, speculating is just an invitation for people to complain or pre-suppose that Drukhari will be picked on.

They have overtly said "without an established meta or best army", it ensures that on day one everyone starts in the same place.

Signal's from the Frontline said 15-20% increase across the board, so a 1600-1700pts of army now should be 2000pts in 9th.

We don't have to if you don't want to.

Well its hard to say unit by unit b.c cultist went up 50% but Intercessors went up by 17%, meaning Kabals could be anywhere from 7pts to 9pts.

But also GW has a hard on for screwing us over, they could end up being 11pts.

amishprn86 wrote:

Well its hard to say unit by unit b.c cultist went up 50% but Intercessors went up by 17%, meaning Kabals could be anywhere from 7pts to 9pts.

But also GW has a hard on for screwing us over, they could end up being 11pts.

But... kabal sergeant can have a venom blade. VENOM BLADE. Everybody put them on their archons. It prove it's real stuff... warriors at 12pts