Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex

Barking Agatha wrote:

Kalmah wrote:

all in all, i gotta say that while i know that i am on the positive side of the trench, we do need those pessimists. First of all, the last 2 days been really entertaining here, isnt it? reading all the posts really made me smile and amused me, and, gotta say, they do bring some legit points (not all of them mind you!!). The tension rises sometimes, but overall, everything is said in a peaceful way with some respect. This lead to some instructive conversation.....after all, if everyone was on one side or the other.....the topic would have closed after 10 comments and we would have passed on something else (well....nothing for now and maybe the next week).

Are you seriously being positive about negativity?

Enough is enough! However positive you are, I'm negative double, so there!

lol never forget that i am Canadian! so by nature i am positive the more negative you're gonna be, the more i will accept you, see? you can't escape this faith!!! mouhahahaha!

I think the updated Kabs are great. I get the impression there would be less negativity if they hadn’t received the extra attack which is ludicrous.

9th edition has brought a need for a obsec units that can hold objectives. The 4+ save is great! Get those troops in light cover and it’s even better. Add the 6++ from pfp and it means that Kabs are now legit objective holders.

The extra attack is fluffy and it’s more than welcome. It may seem a bit meh but the extra attack on Kabs is made better by the fact they are going to be around longer. I also feel as though a potential 3 attacks on the squad leader means there is even more reason to give them a decent cc weapon. That might be the real bonus here.

The cannons being changed in this way just means the army has more versatility. We are not lacking in the amount of fire power we have, but now we have an option that is better vs MEQ. Also bear in mind you are not forced to take splinter cannons...it’s an option. Heavy only makes them awkward on moving troops. Give them to objective holding units. We may find that shredders etc have also been updated meaning you may be able to mould your Kabs to suit different roles. I’d really like this to be true.

krayd wrote:

rtynd057 wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Oh, something I saw mentioned elsewhere, the change also makes the Splinter Cannon drastically worse against Death Guard.

I'm doubtful that this is a coincidence.

It is also worse against salamanders, valorous heart sisters,  rotten constitution death guard warlords and the rise of ignore Ap 1 abilities in general that didn’t used to matter for poison.

Sorta. but not quite. It's still D2 vs 'ignore ap -1' abilities, so at long range, it's still better than it is currently against those types of targets. Now, against any death guard that also ignore the AP? That's where they really suck.

The sisters units are largely one wound models so our 0 ap higher volume of fire was better than the current scenario. The extra damage is wasted but I assume will still be factored in when they work out the cost of the splinter cannons. My bigger concern is that the type of rule ignoring ap 1 will become more widely available so our attempt to keep pace with it will mean that our new ap -1 cannons will be as useful as the 0 ap but now have half the rate of fire. It’s like we’re one step behind the power creep of 9th edition.

sekac wrote:

krayd wrote:

rtynd057 wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Oh, something I saw mentioned elsewhere, the change also makes the Splinter Cannon drastically worse against Death Guard.

I'm doubtful that this is a coincidence.

It is also worse against salamanders, valorous heart sisters,  rotten constitution death guard warlords and the rise of ignore Ap 1 abilities in general that didn’t used to matter for poison.

Sorta. but not quite. It's still D2 vs 'ignore ap -1' abilities, so at long range, it's still better than it is currently against those types of targets. Now, against any death guard that also ignore the AP? That's where they really suck.

Unless Dark Technomancers is still a thing. Then the new venom cannon is indisputably better against Death Guard than its current incarnation.

People have talked endlessly about how ineffective poison is. So they change it up and people complain that poison is less good at the very few things it was good for, but is now more generally useful.

This is a bad thing, I guess. Give the people what they want! We want the poison weapons we always hated!

The thing is though in the sneak peak of the splinter cannon the poison rule wasn't changed at all ... it is still "poisoned 4+" with nothing else added ... the cannon itself changed to "heavy 3, 2D, AP -1" the heavy 3 is the part we have a problem with because as a mobile army that "heavy" is a slap in the face for anyone taking that weapon that isn't a vehicle or monster, I don't know about anyone else but I used to take a splinter cannon in all of my kabalite units because it's firepower was like adding an additional 2 guns to a 10 man unit ...
The weapon we "wanted" was *Splinter cannon - 36" assualt 3, 2D, ap-1 poison 4+* I honestly think that our army shouldn't have a more than maybe 1 heavy weapon in it, that being the dark Lance (im not counting disses or the weapons on our fliers as those can only be taken by vehicles and those don't care about "heavy" ) the rest of the weapons should be assualt or rapid fire, thematic for a fast mobile army

for my part, i know it's not a quality at all (some say yes, others no, thats not my point), but the transition to heavy does make senses for the Splinter Cannon....first of all.....its a cannon! not a rifle, not a gun, a f$%??$ cannon! So it does make senses that it is heavy.
Also, have you taken a look at our models when they carry a Splinter Cannon? do they look agile, light on their feet? not at all, they look really cumbersome as hell....so again, the heavy does make senses.
I'm not talking competitive here, that's not my point at all, only that from a flavor perspective, it does make senses that the Splinter Cannon is now heavy.

Kalmah wrote:

for my part, i know it's not a quality at all (some say yes, others no, thats not my point), but the transition to heavy does make senses for the Splinter Cannon....first of all.....its a cannon! not a rifle, not a gun, a f$%??$ cannon! So it does make senses that it is heavy.
Also, have you taken a look at our models when they carry a Splinter Cannon? do they look agile, light on their feet? not at all, they look really cumbersome as hell....so again, the heavy does make senses.
I'm not talking competitive here, that's not my point at all, only that from a flavor perspective, it does make senses that the Splinter Cannon is now heavy.

If you argue about how the miniature looks then I must say our dark lance infantry looks like snipers of other factions. And that most meltagun miniatures look like heavy weapons at least as much as our Kabalite with splinter cannon.
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/be/Cadian-MG.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/364?cb=20121129142915
Just try to imagine how it would look like if he turned his torso and was trying to run in the direction he aims. And that is even an assault weapon, so meant for use while running rule wise, while the splinter cannon was rapid fire.

Kalmah wrote:

for my part, i know it's not a quality at all (some say yes, others no, thats not my point), but the transition to heavy does make senses for the Splinter Cannon....first of all.....its a cannon! not a rifle, not a gun, a f$%??$ cannon! So it does make senses that it is heavy.
Also, have you taken a look at our models when they carry a Splinter Cannon? do they look agile, light on their feet? not at all, they look really cumbersome as hell....so again, the heavy does make senses.
I'm not talking competitive here, that's not my point at all, only that from a flavor perspective, it does make senses that the Splinter Cannon is now heavy.

You react like this because you don't remember the time when splinter cannon was heavy 6. Splinter cannon was never a "cannon" to the strict sense of the term. It's a gatling gun, firing volleys and volleys of shards.

dumpeal wrote:

Kalmah wrote:

for my part, i know it's not a quality at all (some say yes, others no, thats not my point), but the transition to heavy does make senses for the Splinter Cannon....first of all.....its a cannon! not a rifle, not a gun, a f$%??$ cannon! So it does make senses that it is heavy.
Also, have you taken a look at our models when they carry a Splinter Cannon? do they look agile, light on their feet? not at all, they look really cumbersome as hell....so again, the heavy does make senses.
I'm not talking competitive here, that's not my point at all, only that from a flavor perspective, it does make senses that the Splinter Cannon is now heavy.

You react like this because you don't remember the time when splinter cannon was heavy 6. Splinter cannon was never a "cannon" to the strict sense of the term. It's a gatling gun, firing volleys and volleys of shards.

I can't ''remember'' as i started playing this game in 2020....so i don't know anything before that.
As for the Gatling Gun........that's definitely a heavy weapon if you ask me....

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I think the updated Kabs are great. I get the impression there would be less negativity if they hadn’t received the extra attack which is ludicrous.

9th edition has brought a need for a obsec units that can hold objectives. The 4+ save is great! Get those troops in light cover and it’s even better. Add the 6++ from pfp and it means that Kabs are now legit objective holders.

The extra attack is fluffy and it’s more than welcome. It may seem a bit meh but the extra attack on Kabs is made better by the fact they are going to be around longer. I also feel as though a potential 3 attacks on the squad leader means there is even more reason to give them a decent cc weapon. That might be the real bonus here.

The cannons being changed in this way just means the army has more versatility. We are not lacking in the amount of fire power we have, but now we have an option that is better vs MEQ. Also bear in mind you are not forced to take splinter cannons...it’s an option. Heavy only makes them awkward on moving troops. Give them to objective holding units. We may find that shredders etc have also been updated meaning you may be able to mould your Kabs to suit different roles. I’d really like this to be true.

I dont understand how people keep claiming an "increase in versaility" it is now worse against all targets (thanks to heavy) and can someone point out our anihorde shooting, i dont like relying on d6 shots

Grimcrimm wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I think the updated Kabs are great. I get the impression there would be less negativity if they hadn’t received the extra attack which is ludicrous.

9th edition has brought a need for a obsec units that can hold objectives. The 4+ save is great! Get those troops in light cover and it’s even better. Add the 6++ from pfp and it means that Kabs are now legit objective holders.

The extra attack is fluffy and it’s more than welcome. It may seem a bit meh but the extra attack on Kabs is made better by the fact they are going to be around longer. I also feel as though a potential 3 attacks on the squad leader means there is even more reason to give them a decent cc weapon. That might be the real bonus here.

The cannons being changed in this way just means the army has more versatility. We are not lacking in the amount of fire power we have, but now we have an option that is better vs MEQ. Also bear in mind you are not forced to take splinter cannons...it’s an option. Heavy only makes them awkward on moving troops. Give them to objective holding units. We may find that shredders etc have also been updated meaning you may be able to mould your Kabs to suit different roles. I’d really like this to be true.

I dont understand how people keep claiming an "increase in versaility" it is now worse against all targets (thanks to heavy) and can someone point out our anihorde shooting, i dont like relying on d6 shots

The new Splinter Cannon is actually substantially better versus Marines and Terminators even compared to the old Cannon in Rapid Fire range. It does leave our anti-light infantry ranged weaponry feeling very anemic on the face of it but we'll have to see what's happened to the basic Splinter Rifle and Shredders.

I will say more: there's no light horde now. Even Orks, they run with 5++/6+++. Because the 9th works in this way. The most lighter troop you will find is an infantry with 5+ save (and light cover ususally).

So...yeah, Splinter Canonns are doing nothing besides being DT.

It is a straight foward buff, against everyone. PS: Venoms don't suffer the Heavy keyword.

Kalmah wrote:

I can't ''remember'' as i started playing this game in 2020....so i don't know anything before that.
As for the Gatling Gun........that's definitely a heavy weapon if you ask me....

I don't care for it being heavy. But it's supposed to be a high number of low damage shot. We already have 3 shots D2 weapons. It gets repetitive.

Grimcrimm wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

...

I dont understand how people keep claiming an "increase in versaility" it is now worse against all targets (thanks to heavy) and can someone point out our anihorde shooting, i dont like relying on d6 shots

That's only the case on infantry. And I really can't remember the last time it was common to take Splinter Cannons on Scourges or Kabalites. And we don't even know the cost of the Splinter Cannon, they might as well become 5 points.

And with the rate of the meta shifting towards W2 models you deal the same potential damage, but at full 36". AP-1 is a great change by itself and we wound non-vehicle T5 stuff on a 5+.

Most likely, twin splinter-rifles will still be free and from a design perspective it makes sense to have the Splinter Cannon as a sidegrade to it, rather than have it as inferior/superior pick.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Most likely, twin splinter-rifles will still be free and from a design perspective it makes sense to have the Splinter Cannon as a sidegrade to it, rather than have it as inferior/superior pick.

Not if we're paying points for them.

I think a good litmus test for our codex will be whether Raiders and/or Venoms get +1 transport capacity.

If they don't, you can be reasonably certain that whoever wrote our book has never even played Dark Eldar.

I suspect the more competitive players will see the benefits of the new SC rules.

dumpeal wrote:

Kalmah wrote:

I can't ''remember'' as i started playing this game in 2020....so i don't know anything before that.
As for the Gatling Gun........that's definitely a heavy weapon if you ask me....

I don't care for it being heavy. But it's supposed to be a high number of low damage shot. We already have 3 shots D2 weapons. It gets repetitive.

i'm totally with you on that point, but i was only referring to the heavy or not heavy from a lorewise / appearance perspective, i never intended on talking about the stats.

Cerve wrote:

I will say more: there's no light horde now. Even Orks, they run with 5++/6+++. Because the 9th works in this way. The most lighter troop you will find is an infantry with 5+ save (and light cover ususally).

So...yeah, Splinter Canonns are doing nothing besides being DT.

It is a straight foward buff, against everyone. PS: Venoms don't suffer the Heavy keyword.

I mean, it's absolutely untrue that this is a flat buff against every target - the new profile is particularly weaker versus single-wound targets with invulnerable saves.

But. We need to see the rest of Codex before we make final judgements about its new strength. It's entirely plausible that it'll have easy access to additional AP or some other method of increasing its offensive potential.

Of course it’s not a buff vs every target, but neither is it worse vs every target.

Who ever mentioned us not needing D2 weapons because we have Disintegrator Cannons...let me smoke some of what their smoking lol

Now you can have D2 weapons without paying the Raider/Ravager tax. If the Dark Lance gets a much needed upgrade on its damage then we could be in a much healthier spot.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I suspect the more competitive players will see the benefits of the new SC rules.

I am as competitive as they come.
I won a GT with Dark eldar, won Best dark Eldar at ATC, Adepticon (twice), Crucible, Bolter Beach and won more local tournaments than you could shake a stick at.

And I am telling you, this sucks.

A positive Splinter cannon improvement would be rapid fire 3, -1 AP. Damage= 2.
That would keep us in line with other armies improvements.

Instead we got kicked in the gribblies.

If you look at it as just a change to the splinter cannon, I can (almost) see your optimism.
But entire competitive lists are built around synergy... the Splinter cannon now sticks out as a tax on taking a venom, with a much worse profile (MUCH WORSE) than a dissie.
This will swing the lists for Dark Eldar to raiders.
Sadly, Raiders are not as versatile and effective as venoms, which come stock with a -1 to hit and does not degrade.

You guys are looking at this as a change to the splinter cannon. I am looking at it as a change to the Venom, making it much less viable for what people take venoms for... high volume of shots to take out either big bad monsters or troops that people use as flack.

This is the equivalent of Disintegrators being made Rapid fire 2, Str 4, ap-2, damage 3.
Some people here would applaud how now it is 3 damage and one extra shot at close range!
In reality, this profile sucks for what this army needs a dissie to do. Wounding crons and marines on 3's, wounding toughness 8 on 5's... these are HUGE things.

the splinter cannon is now the "Cooper Manning" of the Dark Eldar.
Probably good at what he does, but is far outshone by his brothers Peyton (dissies) and Eli (Dark Lances)

I maintain that the Splinter Cannon should have been Assault 4 with this profile. It would have been a loss of shots at 1/2 range, but would have maintained the kill ratio against marines (1.33 per 2 cannons), whilst also being vastly more useful on Kabalites and Scourges.

As it stands, it might as well have been removed as an infantry weapon altogether, and it's far from impressive even on vehicles.

I can certainly appreciate the idea of having an anti-infantry D2 weapon so that your Disintegrator can focus on other targets, it just seems like the Splinter Cannon sucks in that role. When you need 5 Venoms to kill half a Marine squad, I don't think you'll be saving all that many Disintegrator shots.


And yes, I know, we haven't seen everything yet. However, GW isn't getting off their ass to show us anything else, so I'm just going by what I'm seeing here and now.

Quote :

9th edition has brought a need for a obsec units that can hold objectives. The 4+ save is great! Get those troops in light cover and it’s even better. Add the 6++ from pfp and it means that Kabs are now legit objective holders.

4+ save makes no difference.

Ive been running skitarii with exact same stats T3 4+ 6++, plus army wide ability to give cover. Believe me, those models will be dead at the exact moment enemy can shoot at them. They are NOT legit objective holders. ITs delusion to think they will survive a round of shooting on objective.

Light infantry basically have only type of defense in this game - one that is provided by game rules. Range, vision, transport, close combat etc...can save light infantry. Pathethic or slightly less pathethic damage reduction - cant.

It might play a little maybe against S3 AP0 shots...or close combat attacks. But thats pretty much it.

Skulnbonz wrote:

competitive lists are built around synergy...

Sure! But we can’t judge how the SC fits into availible synergies in the coming book, yet. (Since we’ve seen so few tidbits/don’t know what the rest of the rules look like). Better, then, to speculate on what synergies would be needed for the new statline to shine, rather than condemning it prematurely.
(Is what I’m thinking). But I want to say I like that youbare pointing out the flaws and dangers that you identify!

Skulnbonz wrote:

less viable for what people take venoms for... high volume of shots to take out either big bad monsters or troops that people use as flack.

Agreed about it having moved away from being effective against flack troops. But surely it must be better against monsters now, considering the increase in range?


To me it seems like multi-wound statlines are becoming more usual across the game, creating a need for tools to handle those types of statlines. And it seems the SCs niche will be that this time around.
I am surprised by it becoming heavy, since it has consistently been an assault/mobile weapon (even through changing profiles everytime the codex gets updated). It puzzles me, but I will reserve my personal judgement for when we know more.

Ps: I love that warriors now have an extra attack <3 representa the background and shows a willinfness to change things up!

Well maybe the Splinter Cannon is fine. I mean, who cares? It's not as if it was doing much of anything anyway.

But...

Necrons:
              Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon:  Heavy 6, S7,  Ap -3,  D 1d3
              Particle Shredder:                   Heavy 8, S6,  Ap -1   D 2

Space Meriiiingues:

              Twin Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon: Heavy 24 (seriously), S6, -1, D1
              Twin Assault Cannon: Heavy 12, S6, -1, D1
              Predator Autocannon: Heavy 2d3, S7, -1, D3
                          
Death Guard:
               
              Bile Maw: Assault 6, S7, -1, D1
              Heavy Blight Launcher: Assault 6, S6, -3, D2 (and plague too)

Tau:
              Don't even.

Tyranids:

              Balethorn Cannon: Assault d6, S7, -1, D2
              Bio-plasmic Cannon: Heavy 6, S7, -3, D2
             
Asuryani:
             Fire Prism (dispersed): Heavy D6, S6, -3, D1
             Doomweaver: Heavy 2D6, S7, 0 D2
             etc.

Everyone seems to have access to weapons that will tear anything in a Drukhari army to pieces. Infantry, vehicles, it doesn't matter. All they have to do is point at something and -- poof! -- it's gone. And we can't have a big gun that rolls more than 3 dice? Why? Is it because we've been bad?

Where's our bucket of dice of unavoidable death and destruction, I'd like to know!

Barking Agatha wrote:

Well maybe the Splinter Cannon is fine. I mean, who cares? It's not as if it was doing much of anything anyway.

But...

Necrons:
              Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon:  Heavy 6, S7,  Ap -3,  D 1d3
              Particle Shredder:                   Heavy 8, S6,  Ap -1   D 2

Space Meriiiingues:

              Twin Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon: Heavy 24 (seriously), S6, -1, D1
              Twin Assault Cannon: Heavy 12, S6, -1, D1
              Predator Autocannon: Heavy 2d3, S7, -1, D3
                          
Death Guard:
               
              Bile Maw: Assault 6, S7, -1, D1
              Heavy Blight Launcher: Assault 6, S6, -3, D2 (and plague too)

Tau:
              Don't even.

Tyranids:

              Balethorn Cannon: Assault d6, S7, -1, D2
              Bio-plasmic Cannon: Heavy 6, S7, -3, D2
             
Asuryani:
             Fire Prism (dispersed): Heavy D6, S6, -3, D1
             Doomweaver: Heavy 2D6, S7, 0 D2
             etc.

Everyone seems to have access to weapons that will tear anything in a Drukhari army to pieces. Infantry, vehicles, it doesn't matter. All they have to do is point at something and -- poof! -- it's gone. And we can't have a big gun that rolls more than 3 dice? Why? Is it because we've been bad?

Where's our bucket of dice of unavoidable death and destruction, I'd like to know!

In fairness both versions of the SC suck compared to them so is this a gripe with the update or Dark Eldar in general?

I think it’s fair to say a fairer comparison would be the SC and a Heavy Bolter.