Sneak Peek at New Drukhari Codex

AzraeI wrote:

But even if you compare the "beatsicks" of the other armies without their relics and upgrades and traits, we are sorely lacking.

A Blood angels Primaris marine captain with mc power sword kills 4 Marines, without his super doctrine, assault doctrine, relics, rerolls and warlord traits. While an unbuffed, unequipped archon kills 1?

There's something rotten in the state of commoragh

Yeah well a space marine can kill more Kabalites than a Kabalite can kill space marines. All makes perfect sense to me.

A Primaris Captain can only kill 5 guardsmen. What a wimp! Nearly double the points of an Archon as well!

Cerve wrote:

But we're not Space Marines. We're the fragile race, it's ok being not lethal as them in terms of raw force. It's like wanting an elf being stronger than a dwarf.

But it's an Archon...

I wrote this in this thread once before, but I want our characters to be scary.

Be honest, how do your opponents react when you say you field an archon/ Succubus with this this and that? Or lelith?

They don't care.

And how did you react when an opponent brought 3 smash captains in 8th? Or One smash captain, a chief librarian and the chief apothecary?
Or the silent king?

And we have
Drazhar
Yeah he's good, but taking him is already a trade off once again.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I don’t think it’s fair to criticise the Archon because he’s potentially not so good without warlord traits and relics.

If they made him a bit of a monster then there is the risk of warlord traits etc making him OP.

So why is it that every other faction is allowed to have HQs that are good without Relics and Warlord traits?

Why is this risk unique to DE?

SMs aren't stuck with Power Swords unless they take a relic.

IG Orders aren't locked behind a warlord trait.


Yet our melee HQ is absolute arse at melee unless you take a relic.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I get that a space marine captain can just walk out with his thunder hammer or storm shield etc and that’s a fair point to make.

Do you know the sad thing? I'm not even asking for a Power Fist equivalent for the Archon.

Was the fething Huskblade really overpowered when it gave +1S?

Were 5 S4 AP-2 Dd3 attacks breaking the game?

Because most Archons I saw didn't even take that. They just took the Venom Blade and sat at the back of the table buffing Ravagers.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I think after reviewing the new codex rules our Archon is quite good. He’s cheap, can be turned into a combat monster, gets you access to Trueborn and has the ability to buff loads of units! I don’t know enough about all the other armies in the game but our Archon does seem unique in just how many units he buffs.

I think he's certainly unique in how few units he buffs.

Because I count 3. Trueborn. Incubi. Court of the Archon. That's it.


But let me try and explain my issue in a different way. Hopefully one you might be able to relate to a little better:

You said previously that your favourite part of the game is Relics and Warlord traits, right?

I love that part of the game, too. When I play Imperial Guard, for example, I love outfitting my HQs with fluffy wargear and warlord traits, not to mention generic wargear. Some get power swords, some get power fists, some get bolters, some get plasma pistols. I might give a Psyker the Death Mask for a 4++ to represent him having a psychic shield or something. Another might get the Sword of Conquest, for if I want to have some fun and charge him against an enemy at some point.

But the reason I can have fun with this is that none of my officers actually *need* their wargear or artefacts. All of them fulfil their core role - issuing Orders - perfectly fine with no artefacts and no warlord traits. So anything I add to them is just a bonus. Hence, I can enjoy myself with flavourful choices without seriously compromising their functionality.


But now we get to the Archon. His primary role (especially going by his Master upgrade) is combat. However, the standard Archon is absolute arse in combat. All his weapons have utterly abysmal damage output even against basic Marines.

Hence, if I want to take some fun traits, I can't do so without hamstringing myself.

Before, I could take builds like this:

PT Archon w/ Huskblade, Splinter Pistol, Soul Seeker, Soul Thirst.

He was intended as a sniper but he could also enter melee with 6 S4 AP-2 Dd3 attacks.

Nothing amazing. Hell, if anything he was already on the weaker end of Archon builds (not to mention the weaker end of Kabals).

But I used him anyway because I really wanted to try and make him work.

Now, though, that same build has the same ranged profile. But in melee, he's stuck with 6 S3 attacks (which also no longer reroll 1s to hit). So I have to either abandon a fun build or else just give up on melee entirely and hope that his wopping 18" range keeps him safe.

Do you see why I end up sighing at some of these changes?


And I'm sorry. I'd like to be more positive. Really. Surprising as this might sound, I don't actually enjoy disliking DE books.

But I also dislike looking at builds I enjoyed (none of which were remotely OP or problematic) and finding that they no longer work because already weak wargear has been arbitrarily nerfed into oblivion or because it outright no longer exists.

I look at the Archon and cheer at him getting to upgrade Warriors into Trueborn and ride in a Raider with them. Then I sigh because his aura still doesn't work inside vehicles and he can't even take a Blaster, so all he can do is sit around twiddling his thumbs.

I look at the Haemonculus and cheer at him gaining the ability to heal. Then I see that my favourite build has been killed because he can't take a Hexrifle. Not even as a Relic.

etc.

I'm sorry but as someone who likes characters and spends a lot of time converting custom ones, this sort of thing really mars the enjoyment factor of books for me.

Okay, can we all just accept that some people love the new codex and other's don't? There are some posters on here who could be told that GW have altered Kabalite Warriors and they are now 25 points each, with T1 and an 8+ armour save who suffer D6 mortal wounds everytime they fire their weapon and would respond with "Wow, that's amazing! Now I get to play with one of our other totally awesome units instead!" Similarly there are others who could be told the Archon is now 10 points, has 8 wounds, a rerollable 2++ and is equipped with a sword that kills whatever it hits on a 2+ with no save and would complain that he doesn't have a nice gun. Where's the truth? Somewhere in the middle, in all likelihood.

AzraeI wrote:

Cerve wrote:

But we're not Space Marines. We're the fragile race, it's ok being not lethal as them in terms of raw force. It's like wanting an elf being stronger than a dwarf.

But it's an Archon...

I wrote this in this thread once before, but I want our characters to be scary.  

Be honest, how do your opponents react when you say you field an archon/ Succubus with this this and that? Or lelith?

They don't care.

And how did you react when an opponent brought 3 smash captains in 8th? Or One smash captain, a chief librarian and the chief apothecary?
Or the silent king?

And we have
Drazhar
Yeah he's good, but taking him is already a trade off once again.

I think you need to get the codex and spend some time with it. No one is bothered about a Smash Captain, Librarian or Apothecary anymore...they are doomed.

Count Adhemar wrote:

Okay, can we all just accept that some people love the new codex and other's don't? There are some posters on here who could be told that GW have altered Kabalite Warriors and they are now 25 points each, with T1 and an 8+ armour save who suffer D6 mortal wounds everytime they fire their weapon and would respond with "Wow, that's amazing! Now I get to play with one of our other totally awesome units instead!" Similarly there are others who could be told the Archon is now 10 points, has 8 wounds, a rerollable 2++ and is equipped with a sword that kills whatever it hits on a 2+ with no save and would complain that he doesn't have a nice gun. Where's the truth? Somewhere in the middle, in all likelihood.

Maybe the most sensible thing said in the 40 pages (and counting) of this thread.  As someone whose first love is Covens, I’m disappointed with loss of PoF and Coven 5++.  However, I can also appreciate that Kabul and Wych Cults got some nice boosts (Hellions are actually legit now). And DT Liquifiers, Hex Rifles, and Ossefactors are all better now.  Sadly, I can’t change the rules GW wrote for us.  What I can do is pick out the bits I like that suit my play style and adapt my new army lists to utilize the good stuff that we have (and there IS good stuff in the book).

sweetbacon wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

Okay, can we all just accept that some people love the new codex and other's don't? There are some posters on here who could be told that GW have altered Kabalite Warriors and they are now 25 points each, with T1 and an 8+ armour save who suffer D6 mortal wounds everytime they fire their weapon and would respond with "Wow, that's amazing! Now I get to play with one of our other totally awesome units instead!" Similarly there are others who could be told the Archon is now 10 points, has 8 wounds, a rerollable 2++ and is equipped with a sword that kills whatever it hits on a 2+ with no save and would complain that he doesn't have a nice gun. Where's the truth? Somewhere in the middle, in all likelihood.

Maybe the most sensible thing said in the 40 pages (and counting) of this thread.  As someone whose first love is Covens, I’m disappointed with loss of PoF and Coven 5++.  However, I can also appreciate that Kabul and Wych Cults got some nice boosts (Hellions are actually legit now). And DT Liquifiers, Hex Rifles, and Ossefactors are all better now.  Sadly, I can’t change the rules GW wrote for us.  What I can do is pick out the bits I like that suit my play style and adapt my new army lists to utilize the good stuff that we have (and there IS good stuff in the book).

I might pick your brains when we all come around to picking lists from the new codex. At first glance I can’t see a real pick em Coven to choose. I do hope you find a list you’re really happy with. Cronos looks better now and the Talos is as good as ever and it might just be me but the Heamy also looks more useful than before.

AzraeI wrote:

Cerve wrote:

But we're not Space Marines. We're the fragile race, it's ok being not lethal as them in terms of raw force. It's like wanting an elf being stronger than a dwarf.

But it's an Archon...

I wrote this in this thread once before, but I want our characters to be scary.  

Be honest, how do your opponents react when you say you field an archon/ Succubus with this this and that? Or lelith?

They don't care.

And how did you react when an opponent brought 3 smash captains in 8th? Or One smash captain, a chief librarian and the chief apothecary?
Or the silent king?

And we have
Drazhar
Yeah he's good, but taking him is already a trade off once again.

What? They don't care? Oh don't worry, this codex is an herohammer codex.
Both Archons and Succubus are AMAZING in combat right now.

You just have to build them up. But belives me, between Archons, Succubus and Drazhar, you're definitely not going to miss any smashcaptain. All 3 of them can take a Smash Captain and simply bully him.



Actually, a right builded Succubus is even better than Drazhar (because she deals the hellsout of MWs, which not invuln saves will prevent).




PS: In a background perspective, it's not mandatory that Archons are a good fighters. I'm just at the beginning of the Path of the Dark Eldar trilogy, but I already met 1 Archon who is an elder Wych who kick ass in combat, and 1 Archon that is an old politician who basically just wear heavy armour and hope he will strikes 1-2 blows before getting murdered. So...yeah, it's not like an Archon should be a master of blades.
The Codex one has a good fighter profile, but he needs relics to shine for real. Yes, I AGREE that Huskblade at Sr -model sucks. But who cares in front at the jewel we have as a Codex! I mean, if you're going to run a character in this codex, you're sure you're going to build him with relics and traits. Because the Codex tells you to do that. Which gives more flavour to all of your characters. I love this design, it brings you actually heroes in games, not just "Archons 1.0, Archons 1.1" etc.
You can build an Archon who is a beast in combat.
You can build an Archon who have +1D/+1Sr on every gun he wears (yes, blast pistols at Sr9 and Huskblades at Sr4)
You can build an Archon that simply charge someone and says: "You now fight last". An utility one.
You can build an Archon da will simply reroll everything.
Yon can build a tanky one Archon, with 4++ and fnp 5+++, in addition to the usual 2++
You can build an Archon that just gives rerolling 1s to Kabals and Mercenaries, another great fluff here.

I mean....you just need to spend Command Points, instead of normal Points. I can see any other complain, but THIS one....this one is just silly.

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I might pick your brains when we all come around to picking lists from the new codex. At first glance I can’t see a real pick em Coven to choose. I do hope you find a list you’re really happy with. Cronos looks better now and the Talos is as good as ever and it might just be me but the Heamy also looks more useful than before.

Regarding Covens, Prophets of Flesh and Dark Technomancers both look interesting.

I'm quite curious to try the regeneration and wound-limiting of Prophets. Also kinda like the warlord trait, where you can choose between a fast, nimble Haemonculus or a slower, tougher one.

Seems good for a monster-heavy list.

DT seems better for a Wrack and Grot based one, with a lot of Liquifiers and Hexrifles.


Though either way, I think I'd want any transports to be from a different faction (e.g. Poison Tongue for Venoms). DT Venoms look pretty dead to me.

Im still a little peeved at the lack of haemy wargear options, but overall Im on board. Right now, I have no solid idea of what lists I want to build first, and I think that's a good thing.

I don't mind the Archon needing warlord traits and/or relics to be strong, our army is designed to have him be the warlord and get a relic. However, I'm confused by the role GW is giving him. We used to have Cults for fast melee, and Kabal for ranged combat. The Archon is supposed to be a master tactician, and is supposed to be more in the backfield, commanding his army. But with the current rules he doesn't do much of that anymore. No more blaster, but only pistols and melee weapons? He's supposed to buff kabalites from the front line now? I don't even know how to field him now. What would make the most sense with the rules now, is sending him with 5 Incubi bodyguards, but in that case I'm left wondering, WHY am I not sending those Incubi with Drazhar?

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Dark Elf Dave wrote:

I might pick your brains when we all come around to picking lists from the new codex. At first glance I can’t see a real pick em Coven to choose. I do hope you find a list you’re really happy with. Cronos looks better now and the Talos is as good as ever and it might just be me but the Heamy also looks more useful than before.

Regarding Covens, Prophets of Flesh and Dark Technomancers both look interesting.

I'm quite curious to try the regeneration and wound-limiting of Prophets. Also kinda like the warlord trait, where you can choose between a fast, nimble Haemonculus or a slower, tougher one.

Seems good for a monster-heavy list.

DT seems better for a Wrack and Grot based one, with a lot of Liquifiers and Hexrifles.


Though either way, I think I'd want any transports to be from a different faction (e.g. Poison Tongue for Venoms). DT Venoms look pretty dead to me.

Totally agree.  If you want enhanced poison, Poison Tongue Venoms are the clear winner.  

It’s going to take a mental adjustment for me, but now I think Covens are best at throttling shooting damage in DT (characters, Gravis, and Primaris will soon learn to fear my DT Wracks and Grotesques) OR having really annoying Transhuman 5+++ 20 man PoF Wracks that can now do decent damage to a lot things in melee scoring your primary objectives.  

And because PoF is no longer an auto take, I’m tempted to experiment with stuff like Coven of Twelve or Artists of the Flesh.  Things I never even considered before.

sweetbacon wrote:

Count Adhemar wrote:

Okay, can we all just accept that some people love the new codex and other's don't? There are some posters on here who could be told that GW have altered Kabalite Warriors and they are now 25 points each, with T1 and an 8+ armour save who suffer D6 mortal wounds everytime they fire their weapon and would respond with "Wow, that's amazing! Now I get to play with one of our other totally awesome units instead!" Similarly there are others who could be told the Archon is now 10 points, has 8 wounds, a rerollable 2++ and is equipped with a sword that kills whatever it hits on a 2+ with no save and would complain that he doesn't have a nice gun. Where's the truth? Somewhere in the middle, in all likelihood.

Maybe the most sensible thing said in the 40 pages (and counting) of this thread.  As someone whose first love is Covens, I’m disappointed with loss of PoF and Coven 5++.  However, I can also appreciate that Kabul and Wych Cults got some nice boosts (Hellions are actually legit now). And DT Liquifiers, Hex Rifles, and Ossefactors are all better now.  Sadly, I can’t change the rules GW wrote for us.  What I can do is pick out the bits I like that suit my play style and adapt my new army lists to utilize the good stuff that we have (and there IS good stuff in the book).

Depends what kind of Coven you like. Yes, 4++ is gone, that's true.

But Artists of the Flesh are right now the toughter Coven out there, at least for Grots and Monsters. If you think about it, non-Profets were 5++/6+++ before. Right now they're 6++/5+++. There's a bit of difference, but you're not going to die easely anyway (of course, you need to address the fastness of us. You're not playing blightlords terminators, but you're actually doing 7"+D6+2D6 charges so...yeah, take in count of that!).
And you can heal a lot with multiple Haemonculus.

Prophets of Flesh have the toughter WRACKS right now. Just 20 of them, 6++/5+++ and Transhuman on Sr7< and +D3 Wracks returning every turn makes your blobs pretty durable, giving you that feeling of shambl- well...FASTER Zombies horde (advance+charge remember?). And they actually gives some punch because of Ap-1, Blade Artists, and rerolling both hit and wounds thanks to 2 different Stratagems.

Dark Tecnomancers still rocks. You will likely spam Liquefator guns and, maybe, Hexrifles. So you have sniping potential, Overwatch potential, which is just..different. And pretty powerfull.

DarkCreed offers to you Ld shenanigans, and this is the FIRST Codex where LD Shenanigans acutally works! For real, every Trophy Transport will bump -3 LD, which triggers with PGL, Incubi, +1 to HIt for DarkCreed itself (like, even your Venoms are going to do 6 Attacks hitting on 3+ Sr6 Ap-1 D1), and just morales checks. When the opponent is losing models with 1-2-3 on attrition test, you will figure out.

The 13th are just the more ap guys. Less tougher, but more killy. Embark them, charge, and your Grotesques will fight at Ap-3 and Damage2, Wracks with Ap-2, and don't forget any 6s to wound.




It is true that you will need to use some brain right now. But Covens are FAR from being dead, belive me

Gelmir wrote:

I don't mind the Archon needing warlord traits and/or relics to be strong, our army is designed to have him be the warlord and get a relic. However, I'm confused by the role GW is giving him. We used to have Cults for fast melee, and Kabal for ranged combat. The Archon is supposed to be a master tactician, and is supposed to be more in the backfield, commanding his army. But with the current rules he doesn't do much of that anymore. No more blaster, but only pistols and melee weapons? He's supposed to buff kabalites from the front line now? I don't even know how to field him now. What would make the most sense with the rules now, is sending him with 5 Incubi bodyguards, but in that case I'm left wondering, WHY am I not sending those Incubi with Drazhar?

The most fitting role for the Archon right now is the Lord with his retinues. He buffs Incubi, he buffs everyone if Mastermind Raid, and you can built him in different ways. Even Court is good with him.
But while Succubus are a melee monsters, Archons are more the lords that fight with his bodyguards.

Maybe I should look into buying Sslyth as that's the court model that I find most appealing. I have no court at the moment.

Did the Sslyth really drop to T3?

Just a tip that someone maybe will miss: Poison rules is actually changed. It actually wound if you roll a nature poison-value! With Poison(4+) any NATURAL 4+ will wounds, nothing else matter.

So while it is a straight over buff agains every -1 to wound auras (yes, poison actually ignore that, have a nice day Belakor ), it means that any +1 to wound doesn't work! That's why it has a Sr value too!
So DarkTecnomacers will trigger only in half on poisoned weapons. You will get the +1 damages, but the +1 to wound will be useless because you need a NATURAL result for poison.

And that's why Poisoned Tounge is so good, because it modify the poison valute!

AzraeI wrote:

Did the Sslyth really drop to T3?

Unfortunately (but definitely fitting for 18 points), yes. They are 3 wounds and T3.

Gelmir wrote:

Maybe I should look into buying Sslyth as that's the court model that I find most appealing. I have no court at the moment.

I also have no court because I don’t like the models. Medusae are decent now their weapons went to flamers I think???

I think I will be sending my Archon into combat with the Wyches and Incubi. I’m going to try and make use of the mortal wounds now readily available for taking out buffing characters. My Reavers should take care of characters.

Just think of all my Raiders with Dark Lance getting a free re roll to hit with Black Heart...that’s right isn’t it?

[quote="Dark Elf Dave"]

Gelmir wrote:

Maybe I should look into buying Sslyth as that's the court
Just think of all my Raiders with Dark Lance getting a free re roll to hit with Black Heart...that’s right isn’t it?

Yes you get 1 reroll to hit for every BH unit. Ravagers with 3 DL are good too, you will likely miss 1 shot, then you get the reroll.

It is nice even for that single Blaster on 5 Kabal squad which always miss, you know..

Gelmir wrote:

I don't mind the Archon needing warlord traits and/or relics to be strong, our army is designed to have him be the warlord and get a relic. However, I'm confused by the role GW is giving him. We used to have Cults for fast melee, and Kabal for ranged combat. The Archon is supposed to be a master tactician, and is supposed to be more in the backfield, commanding his army. But with the current rules he doesn't do much of that anymore. No more blaster, but only pistols and melee weapons? He's supposed to buff kabalites from the front line now? I don't even know how to field him now. What would make the most sense with the rules now, is sending him with 5 Incubi bodyguards, but in that case I'm left wondering, WHY am I not sending those Incubi with Drazhar?

Yeah, it seems like there was more than a little indecision about what role the Archon is supposed to fulfil.

His Master bonus is a 1/battle fight twice, which would seem to imply that he's meant to be a frontline character, maybe with Incubi. However, his piss-poor weapon array means he's completely toothless in melee at base. Which seems odd if this is his primary function.

But then, while his own Master buff is a melee one, it also buffs a unit of Kabalites to BS2+, which would instead indicate that he's meant to be a midfield shooting/support character. Except that if you put him on a boat with Trueborn he contributes absolutely nothing because his aura doesn't work and he has no worthwhile shooting to speak of.

This is made even more weird by the effect of Lhamaeans buffing Archons and Trueborn. But if you put a Lhamaean on a boat with Trueborn you run into the exact same problem as with Archons in that being in a boat completely turns off their buff.

So I guess they're meant to be disembarked along with Trueborn and an Archon? In which case you're really hoping that your opponent doesn't shoot that lone Lhamaean or else you've brought two  separate boats - one with the Archon and Trueborn and another with a whole court. Quite a bit of effort just to get a minute bonus to poison shooting.

Then you've got the Realspace Aura, where he gains the ability to buff all [CORE] units in the detachment. So is he meant to sit back and babysit Scourges in the same way that the old one babysat Ravagers?


I'm not trying to be negative here, I just find it to be a bit of a headscratcher. I'm trying to theorycraft some lists atm, but I keep running into hurdles as I realise 'hang on, the Archon can buff this unit but they'll be in a transport so it won't do anything' or 'oh bugger, I wanted him to buff these Mandrakes but I'm not actually using the RSR detachment that would allow that'.


In fact, I'm quite curious as to how you'd use a RSR Archon (with or without the Writ). I ask because it seems like there's a problem of lots of units, probably spread out quite a bit, and only one aura to go around.

The Archon is meant to be a combination of a leader and murderer and his new rules seem to fit that reasonably well. Something like a Master Archon with a Venom Blade, Writ of the Living Muse, and Consummate Weaponmaster will be able to bounce around the board providing a force multiplier in the places where it's needed while delivering a respectable amount of damage himself. No, he's not Drazhar or Succubus level, but that's actually a profile which can put out a solid amount of hurt.

The big thing that the 9th Codex seems to be doing is demanding that we don't just cower at range while embarked in a transport - we're now almost universally more effective when we're up close engaging. With that in mind (and before I've had too many games with the book to sway my opinion) I'm not too fussed about the technically janky relationship between open topped and aura abilities. Yeah, they don't work when your Archon's in a Venom but your Archon should have hopped out of the Venom with his Incubi buddies to contest an objective while some Scourges drop down to murder a nearby target.

Cerve wrote:

Depends what kind of Coven you like. Yes, 4++ is gone, that's true.

But Artists of the Flesh are right now the toughter Coven out there, at least for Grots and Monsters. If you think about it, non-Profets were 5++/6+++ before. Right now they're 6++/5+++. There's a bit of difference, but you're not going to die easely anyway (of course, you need to address the fastness of us. You're not playing blightlords terminators, but you're actually doing 7"+D6+2D6 charges so...yeah, take in count of that!).
And you can heal a lot with multiple Haemonculus.

Prophets of Flesh  have the toughter WRACKS right now. Just 20 of them, 6++/5+++ and Transhuman on Sr7< and +D3 Wracks returning every turn makes your blobs pretty durable, giving you that feeling of shambl- well...FASTER Zombies horde (advance+charge remember?). And they actually gives some punch because of Ap-1, Blade Artists, and rerolling both hit and wounds thanks to 2 different Stratagems.

Dark Tecnomancers still rocks. You will likely spam Liquefator guns and, maybe, Hexrifles. So you have sniping potential, Overwatch potential, which is just..different. And pretty powerfull.

DarkCreed offers to you Ld shenanigans, and this is the FIRST Codex where LD Shenanigans acutally works! For real, every Trophy Transport will bump -3 LD, which triggers with PGL, Incubi, +1 to HIt for DarkCreed itself (like, even your Venoms are going to do 6 Attacks hitting on 3+ Sr6 Ap-1 D1), and just morales checks. When the opponent is losing models with 1-2-3 on attrition test, you will figure out.

The 13th are just the more ap guys. Less tougher, but more killy. Embark them, charge, and your Grotesques will fight at Ap-3 and Damage2, Wracks with Ap-2, and don't forget any 6s to wound.




It is true that you will need to use some brain right now. But Covens are FAR from being dead, belive me

This is an elegant summary of what I have spent all day squinting at video frames to learn for myself.  I cannot have PoF Grotesques and Talos like I am used to, but the closest is indeed Artists of Flesh.  Damage has gone up by default on all Coven units, though, so I'm not surprised to find that I can't be as durable.  Grotesques getting an extra attack and D2 cleavers is huge, and the new ichor injector looks like it will be amazing.  It will be a good time to get some games in and see just how much more vulnerable a 6++/5+++ -1D Talos will be from the crutch of 4++/6+++ I have become reliant on.  The Cronos stratagem to get a unit into that 5++ in the early game may or may not be important, but the additional wound (and possibly model!!!) regeneration abilities of the Cronos and the free Haemonculus ability will certainly help to bridge the gap.  I was expecting a decrease in durability but am honestly surprised with how much more damage the units can do to compensate for that.

Oaka wrote:

Cerve wrote:

Depends what kind of Coven you like. Yes, 4++ is gone, that's true.

But Artists of the Flesh are right now the toughter Coven out there, at least for Grots and Monsters. If you think about it, non-Profets were 5++/6+++ before. Right now they're 6++/5+++. There's a bit of difference, but you're not going to die easely anyway (of course, you need to address the fastness of us. You're not playing blightlords terminators, but you're actually doing 7"+D6+2D6 charges so...yeah, take in count of that!).
And you can heal a lot with multiple Haemonculus.

Prophets of Flesh  have the toughter WRACKS right now. Just 20 of them, 6++/5+++ and Transhuman on Sr7< and +D3 Wracks returning every turn makes your blobs pretty durable, giving you that feeling of shambl- well...FASTER Zombies horde (advance+charge remember?). And they actually gives some punch because of Ap-1, Blade Artists, and rerolling both hit and wounds thanks to 2 different Stratagems.

Dark Tecnomancers still rocks. You will likely spam Liquefator guns and, maybe, Hexrifles. So you have sniping potential, Overwatch potential, which is just..different. And pretty powerfull.

DarkCreed offers to you Ld shenanigans, and this is the FIRST Codex where LD Shenanigans acutally works! For real, every Trophy Transport will bump -3 LD, which triggers with PGL, Incubi, +1 to HIt for DarkCreed itself (like, even your Venoms are going to do 6 Attacks hitting on 3+ Sr6 Ap-1 D1), and just morales checks. When the opponent is losing models with 1-2-3 on attrition test, you will figure out.

The 13th are just the more ap guys. Less tougher, but more killy. Embark them, charge, and your Grotesques will fight at Ap-3 and Damage2, Wracks with Ap-2, and don't forget any 6s to wound.




It is true that you will need to use some brain right now. But Covens are FAR from being dead, belive me

This is an elegant summary of what I have spent all day squinting at video frames to learn for myself.  I cannot have PoF Grotesques and Talos like I am used to, but the closest is indeed Artists of Flesh.  Damage has gone up by default on all Coven units, though, so I'm not surprised to find that I can't be as durable.  Grotesques getting an extra attack and D2 cleavers is huge, and the new ichor injector looks like it will be amazing.  It will be a good time to get some games in and see just how much more vulnerable a 6++/5+++ -1D Talos will be from the crutch of 4++/6+++ I have become reliant on.  The Cronos stratagem to get a unit into that 5++ in the early game may or may not be important, but the additional wound (and possibly model!!!) regeneration abilities of the Cronos and the free Haemonculus ability will certainly help to bridge the gap.  I was expecting a decrease in durability but am honestly surprised with how much more damage the units can do to compensate for that.

Very good points.  Talos have an Ichor Injector.   if it hits(!), not wounds, not kills something, but simply hits (RSR Archons let ALL Core units reroll ones and we’re +1 to hit on Turn 3) it does D3 Mortal Wounds.  In addition to its normal melee attacks.  So a unit of three Talos does 3D3 MWs to a target and then fights it.

Not sure if this has been answered or not. (WAAAAY too much info in this thread now. LOL)

Does the Archon still have a shadowfield at 2+invul as before?