Talos Durability- Why new Artists of the Flesh are better than old Prophets of Flesh

Like many others, I was so used to having a 4++ on all my Talos that seeing them change to a 6++ was devastating at first.  Clearly inferior, right?  After considering several different scenarios and factoring in all the other rules changes to the Talos I now believe that Talos durability has actually been IMPROVED in most cases.  The obvious exception is against high damage weapons like melta, but even then it is not as bad as you might think.  If you are willing to support your Talos units with a Haemonculus, Cronos, or both they are actually more resilient than before under the proper circumstances.  I looked at different versions of the Talos:

1) Old Prophets of Flesh: 3+/4++/6+++
2) New Prophets of Flesh: 3+/6++/5+++ can't be wounded on a 1-3 unless weapon is S8+
4) New Artists of the Flesh: 3+/6++/5+++ -1D

For all calculations I ignored auras and stratagems, but factored in whether it was turn 1 or turn 4 when the invulnerable save increases to 5++.  We are actually improved in this area as I will mention later.  My final conclusion is that a New Artists of the Flesh Talos is more resilient than an Old Prophets of Flesh Talos.  I do want to note that another benefit of the New Prophets of Flesh is that each unit regains 1 lost wound every command phase.  That is not factored in to the total damage below, but you can imagine subtracting 1 from each of the New PoF numbers to take this into account if the situation would call for it.

Mortal Wounds: A straight up buff from Old to New.  We are now shrugging off twice as many MWs with a 5+++ rather than the old 6+++.  One of the main things I noticed reading through our new codex is just how many MWs can be inflicted by our units, so being better against MWs is nothing to dismiss.

AP0 or AP-1 weapons: A straight up buff from Old to New.  If the Talos is making 3+ or 4+ armor saves, then it is absolutely more resilient now, thanks to the improved Feel no Pain save.  Against weapons with a AP-1 that deal D2, like the heavy bolter, they basically tickle a New Artists of the Flesh Talos.  With 9th edition becoming more killy, a lot of these smaller weapons are being bumped up to D2 so -1D has more benefits than against just heavy weapons with a high damage characteristic.

10 Hits with a Heavy Bolter (S5, AP-1, D2)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF: 2.3 damage caused
New AotF: 1.2 damage caused

AP-2 weapons: These weapons would have normally been saved with a 4++ invulnerable with Old PoF, and now require a 5+ armor save.  For D1 weapons, it is a slight nerf.

10 Hits with a Lightning Claw (S4 reroll wounds, AP-2, D1)
Old PoF: 2.4 damage caused
New PoF: 2.5 damage caused
New AotF: 2.5 damage caused

However, if you look at multi-damage AP-2 weapons, there is a significant buff to New AotF.

10 Hits with a Thunder Hammer (S8, AP-2, D3)
Old PoF: 8.4 damage caused
New PoF: 8.9 damage caused
New AotF: 6.0 damage caused

AP-3 weapons S6 or less: This category had one of the largest nerfs with the new rules, as the old invulnerable save absorbed more of the wounds.  What is important to note, though, is once a Talos gets to turn 4 it is about as resilient as the Old PoF version against D1 weapons, only taking a fraction more damage.

10 Hits with a Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D1)
Old PoF: 1.4 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused

Once you look at multi-damage weapons the New AotF significantly pulls ahead.

10 Hits with a Bladeguard Master-crafted Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D2)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused

These results suggest that AotF Talos will be able to tank elite melee units like Bladeguard and Incubi much better than the old PoF ever could.

S7 Weapons: I did want to do a comparison in that rare circumstance where a T6 PoF Talos can use its obsession rule against a S7 weapon, which cannot wound it on a 1-3. This entire interaction can be avoided with a +1T Haemonculus buff but it was worth looking at.

10 Hits with a Plasma Incinerator (S7, AP-4, D1)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 2.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

Here is the only case where a New AotF Talos performs much worse.  BUT, against multi-damage weapons, the AotF Talos pulls ahead once again.

10 Hits with a Supercharge Assault Plasma Incinerator (S7, AP-4, D2)
Old PoF: 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

Talos Killing Weapons: The biggest concern with the Talos changes, let's look at those weapons you always see deployed across from you and shooting your Talos.

10 Hits with a half-range Melta (S8, AP-4, Dd6+2)
Old PoF: 15.3 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 20.4 damage caused (Ouch!)
New PoF (turn4): 16.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 16.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 13.4 damage caused

10 Hits with a Dark Lance (S8, AP-4, Dd3+3)
Old PoF: 13.9 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 18.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 11.9 damage caused

So if you're using PoF Talos with the new codex, you are definitely going to see your models die faster in the first turn as they are taking 33% more damage.  However, if you go with AotF, there is only a 7-10% increase in damage taken in the first turn.  A turn 4 AotF Talos is more durable than ever.

Discussion:  While the reduction in Talos durability is noticeable with Prophets of Flesh, taking the Artists of the Flesh obsession alleviates the nerf against melta weapons and other high damage attacks while making the Talos tougher against almost all other weapons.  In fact, an AotF Talos benefitting from turn 4 Power from Pain is the most durable we have ever been.  This is why I think the new Pain Syphon stratagem is a gem.  If you can whittle down an enemy unit and finish it off with Talos ranged weapons on turn 1 or 2, while a Cronos is within 6" of the Talos unit, you will benefit from Power from Pain as if it is turn 5 for the entire game.  This is huge, and not too difficult to achieve.

We also have a new coven relic that cancels auras on a unit for one battle round.  Using this at the right time will certainly make a unit of Talos survive where an old Prophets of Flesh unit would not, and is a fantastic tool for us to have once per game.  Offensively, the Talos received many global buffs and an Artists of the Flesh Talos gets to benefit from all of these.  

So, why does this seem so good?  The answer is the obsession really only helps coven monsters.  Artists of the Flesh no longer affects vehicles, and Wracks gain much less from it than if they are Prophets of Flesh.  If you are going light on Wracks and vehicles, though, and bringing lots of Talos and Cronos (like me), I conclude that Artists of the Flesh will result in an army that is not only better at doing damage than the old PoF version, but more durable as well.  I welcome comments and math checking in case I goofed up somewhere because otherwise I am convinced that the future is bright for the 9-Talos list, now with Cronos sidekicks.

Thanks for the break down, very well done!

That is some solid statistics, thank you very much for running those numbers.

Honestly, I would have expected the old PoF 4++ to be MUCH more survivable than a -1 damage <Coven>. One would imagine this is a solid way to build a Coven force around the larger flesh-monsters, this is it.

Getting Advance+Charge on those same units Turn 2 could make some nasty things happen

Interesting breakdown. I hadn't expected Artisans of Flesh to be so resilient.

Just to add, a Haemonculus, 3 Talos and a Cronos is ~500pts.

It could perhaps make for quite a self-sufficient unit to maybe secure a flank or threaten one of the main objectives.

As soon as you kill something to trigger the stratagem, you've got 21 T7 wounds with 3+/5++/5+++ saves and -1 damage (which the Haemonculus can also heal) plus 7 more 3+/6++/5+++ on the Cronos. And if your opponent kills one of the Talos, there's even the possibility (however unlikely) for the Cronos to resurrect it.

If the rest of your army can focus down the enemy meltas (and other weapons with very high damage profiles), then it seems they'll have to pump an awful lot of firepower into this unit if they're to have any hopes at all of killing it.

Now, this isn't necessarily something to build an entire strategy around. But it could be an efficient way for the coven component of an army to pull its weight - hopefully acting as something of a bullet-sponge and drawing fire away from the more fragile elements of the DE army.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Just to add, a Haemonculus, 3 Talos and a Cronos is ~500pts.

It could perhaps make for quite a self-sufficient unit to maybe secure a flank or threaten one of the main objectives.

As soon as you kill something to trigger the stratagem, you've got 21 T7 wounds with 3+/5++/5+++ saves and -1 damage (which the Haemonculus can also heal) plus 7 more 3+/6++/5+++ on the Cronos. And if your opponent kills one of the Talos, there's even the possibility (however unlikely) for the Cronos to resurrect it.

I think you may have just nailed why a coven detachment loses Power from Pain if allied with Harlequins.

Thanks for the comments so far.  I have gone ahead and taken a look at weapons options to pair with your beefy new Artists of the Flesh Talos.  I used to run Macro Scalpel/Chain Flails but I know many went dual scalpels in a 3+ armor meta.  Chain Flails have now lost reroll wounds so are an easy option for me to drop.  The Talos Ichor Injector reads like a wonderful choice, and the numbers back that up, as it causes 1.3 wounds against any target without a FnP save.  The change to the Talos Gauntlet, now doing a straight 3 damage, was also of great interest to me.  I didn't include the chances of Blade Artists to proc, so consider that another extra bonus with the new weapon setups compared to the old Talos.

Talos against (T4 3+)
Dual Scalpels: 3.6 damage
Scalpel/Injector: 3.7 damage
Gauntlet: 5.2 damage
Gauntlet/Injector: 5.5 damage

Talos against (T4 2+/4++ +1 to armor saves)
Dual Scalpels: 1.8 damage
Scalpel/Injector: 2.5 damage
Gauntlet: 3.1 damage
Gauntlet/Injector: 3.8 damage

Talos against (T5 3+)
Dual Scalpels: 3.6 damage
Scalpel/Injector: 3.7 damage
Gauntlet: 4.2 damage
Gauntlet/Injector: 4.7 damage

Talos against (T8 3+/4++)
Dual Scalpels: 1.3 damage
Scalpel/Injector: 2.2 damage
Gauntlet: 1.9 damage
Gauntlet/Injector: 2.8 damage

When you start getting to the big tough stuff in the game the MWs from the ichor injector attack alone do as much damage as six attacks with macro scalpels!  I think the pattern is pretty obvious here, equip a Talos with a Gauntlet/Injector always.

For ranged weapon choices, Goonhammer did a great analysis that put Heat Lances as the superior weapon option.  If you are trying to kill a unit with ranged attacks to get that Cronos stratagem to go off, that would be the obvious choice.  I offer a different option, and bear with me here, Stinger Pods!  It is the only ranged weapon that didn't change to Heavy, so is the only gun that can be fired after the Talos advances, which you will be doing on turn 2 to get a reliable charge off.  A main weakness to the gauntlet/injector Talos is being bogged down in combat by hordes, and there is no better way to deal with that than 2D6 S5 shots into the unit while you are in combat.  More likely, though, you will be dealing with a marine meta and the heat lances will be the clear choice.

Final comparison for the evening- Grotesques.  I looked at Old PoF, New PoF, and New AotF.  The changes were pretty brutal to these guys because they do not have an armor save to fall back on like the Talos does, so lighter weapons really start taking wounds off.  Unlike the Talos, an AP-1 weapon behaves just like an AP-4 weapon (time to consider dense cover for your Grots in the early game).  Turn 4 PfP rescues Grotesques closer to the old PoF version, but they will go down quick before that and it is much harder to use the Cronos stratagem for them as they will likely have to already be in combat before they can kill an enemy unit.  The new PoF obsession ability does kick in with S6 and S7 weapons against T5 Grotesques, but to be honest the changes are so devastating when you look at multi damage weapons that I think you have to choose AoTF just to mitigate it.  Just like the Talos, a New AoTF Grotesque is more resilient than the Old PoF Grotesque against multi damage attacks in most cases.  

10 Hits with a Bolt Rifle (S4, AP-1, D1)
Old PoF: 1.4 damage caused
New PoF/AotF (turn1): 1.9 damage caused
New PoF/AotF (turn4): 1.5 damage caused

This is a 29% damage increase suffered by S4 D1 weapons on turns 1-3!  

10 Hits with a Heavy Bolter (S5, AP-1, D2)
Old PoF: 4.2 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 2.2 damage caused

10 Hits with a Lightning Claw (S4 reroll wounds, AP-2, D1)
Old PoF: 2.3 damage caused
New PoF/AotF (turn1): 3.1 damage caused
New PoF/AotF (turn4): 2.5 damage caused

35% damage increase from lightning claws in turns 1-3!

10 Hits with a Thunder Hammer (S8, AP-2, D3)
Old PoF: 8.4 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 11.1 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 8.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 7.4 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 5.9 damage caused

10 Hits with a Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D1)
Old PoF: 2.1 damage caused
New (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New (turn4): 2.2 damage caused

33% damage increase suffered by S5 D1 weapons on turns 1-3!  The +1T aura is vital for Grots.

10 Hits with a Bladeguard Master-crafted Power Sword (S5, AP-3, D2)
Old PoF: 4.2 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 2.2 damage caused

Here is where the superiority of the New AotF Grotesque becomes apparent, but to be fair let's look at a weapon that favors the New PoF Grotesque.

10 Hits with a Plasma Incinerator (S7, AP-4, D1)
Old PoF: 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 2.8 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 2.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

As soon as you increase the weapon D, though, AotF gets much better again.

10 Hits with an Autocannon (S7, AP-1, D2)
Old PoF: 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 5.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 4.5 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 3.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 3.0 damage caused

And finally, the big weapons.  Grotesques actually take damage from these exactly the same as a Talos.

10 Hits with a half-range Melta (S8, AP-4, Dd6+2)
Old PoF: 15.3 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 20.4 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 16.3 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 16.7 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 13.4 damage caused

10 Hits with a Dark Lance (S8, AP-4, Dd3+3)
Old PoF: 13.9 damage caused
New PoF (turn1): 18.6 damage caused
New PoF (turn4): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn1): 14.9 damage caused
New AotF (turn4): 11.9 damage caused

So there you have it, New AotF Grotesques are superior to Old PoF Grotesques against all D2 or greater weapons until you start hitting D5.  D1 weapons will now be dealing around 33% more damage, though, so make sure you have a Haemonculus buffing Grotesques, it is much more important than buffing the Talos.  You will also want to keep your Grotesques in dense cover for the -1 to hit if possible until they can advance and charge.  If you were running minimum units of 3 Grotesques, you should consider bumping it up to 4 to compensate.  New PoF Grotesques are only ever better against S6-7 D1 attacks, and that becomes only S7 weapons with the Haemonculus buff.
If your Grotesques make it to turn 4, the old durability will be greatly restored to ~10% more damage taken, but that is a tall ask and it is very difficult to give them the Cronos stratagem buff on turn 1.

Hm. That's quite interesting for me, as I love my big ass grotesque squad.

One of my mates is playing Blood Angela, so all those chainsword attacks will be a problem.

Thanks, mate!

What a brilliant analysis! I always like digging through numbers!

Reviewer 1)
How did you factor in damage not spilling over to another grotesque when shooting with a high damage weapon? E.g. one melta shot inflicting 8 damage is still only ever one dead grotesque.

CptMetal wrote:

Hm. That's quite interesting for me, as I love my big ass grotesque squad.

One of my mates is playing Blood Angela, so all those chainsword attacks will be a problem.

Thanks, mate!

Grotesques now are 3-6 models, so no big squads anymore sadly.

But after this maths (thanks!!) I guess Grotesques are great if you embark them. 5 into a Raider giving them a shield against D1 mass shoot, then charge what you really need.
Grots got D2 in melee, so it's ok using them more for tought offensive unit than that super-durabile passive unit.

So I will basically field 2 squads of them. Maybe a Kabal patrol and two different Coven ones...

Pippolele wrote:

Reviewer 1)
How did you factor in damage not spilling over to another grotesque when shooting with a high damage weapon? E.g. one melta shot inflicting 8 damage is still only ever one dead grotesque.

I did not, that was too complicated for my mind due to the 5+++ save. The damage numbers basically treat it as a single model with 12+ wounds instead of 3 models at 4 wounds each. At first I thought it would be simple along the lines of 'Oh, a weapon that deals 5 damage will still kill a Grotesque at -1D because it only has 4 wounds' but because we shrug off 1/3 of all damage at the very end that will actually make the Grotesques better against D3, D4, D5, D6, and occasionally D7+ weapons as wounds are lost when they do not carryover to the next Grotesque.

Say the Grotesques get shot by Eradicators. The first melta shot gets through and causes 6 damage. That becomes 5 damage with AotF, and you have a not-unreasonable chance of making two 5+++ saves to reduce it to 3 damage, keeping the Grotesque alive. That second melta shot then has to finish it off, so a lot of damage is discarded there that would have been applied to a Talos.

All those volume D1 weapons will cause damage every time though so the vulnerability that Grotesques have to S4, S5, and S6 D1 attacks is very real. It is why I suggested to always keep them within the +1T aura to make those S5 and S6 wound rolls tougher, and to consider dense terrain for a -1 to hit if you anticipate a lot of small arms fire heading their way.

Cerve wrote:

Grots got D2 in melee, so it's ok using them more for tought offensive unit than that super-durabile passive unit.

A lot of people seem to be glossing over that the Monstrous Cleaver also gives an additional attack now, so a Grotesque is now making 5 attacks at D2 instead of 4 attacks at D1, with 6's to wound being at AP-3.  That is a great leap in damage that I believe more than compensates for their decrease in durability.

Oaka wrote:

Cerve wrote:

Grots got D2 in melee, so it's ok using them more for tought offensive unit than that super-durabile passive unit.

A lot of people seem to be glossing over that the Monstrous Cleaver also gives an additional attack now, so a Grotesque is now making 5 attacks at D2 instead of 4 attacks at D1, with 6's to wound being at AP-3.  That is a great leap in damage that I believe more than compensates for their decrease in durability.

Yeah I don't get it. Monstrous Cleaver always gave +1 attack, so...

Oaka wrote:

Cerve wrote:

Grots got D2 in melee, so it's ok using them more for tought offensive unit than that super-durabile passive unit.

A lot of people seem to be glossing over that the Monstrous Cleaver also gives an additional attack now, so a Grotesque is now making 5 attacks at D2 instead of 4 attacks at D1, with 6's to wound being at AP-3.  That is a great leap in damage that I believe more than compensates for their decrease in durability.

Given the decrease in max squad sizes, the reduction in defence and the significant increase in offensive capability, do you think it could be better to go back to having Grotesques in Raiders, rather than walking them up the field?

Tbh, I'm wondering how practical/effective it would be to make an army where almost everything aims to be in combat by turn 2.

Cerve wrote:

Yeah I don't get it. Monstrous Cleaver always gave +1 attack, so...

Oh wow, I was checking weapons in the 40k app, which of course is wrong and doesn't mention the extra attack (well, not for me in the games I was playing!).  You are correct, in the codex it always had that extra attack, silly me (and curse you GW for shoddy proofreading).

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Oaka wrote:

Cerve wrote:

Grots got D2 in melee, so it's ok using them more for tought offensive unit than that super-durabile passive unit.

A lot of people seem to be glossing over that the Monstrous Cleaver also gives an additional attack now, so a Grotesque is now making 5 attacks at D2 instead of 4 attacks at D1, with 6's to wound being at AP-3.  That is a great leap in damage that I believe more than compensates for their decrease in durability.

Given the decrease in max squad sizes, the reduction in defence and the significant increase in offensive capability, do you think it could be better to go back to having Grotesques in Raiders, rather than walking them up the field?

Tbh, I'm wondering how practical/effective it would be to make an army where almost everything aims to be in combat by turn 2.

5 Grotesques and a Haemonculus in a Raider that can just drop them off anywhere they need to kill stuff sounds like a very tasty picnick party to me.

[quote="Soulless Samurai"]

Oaka wrote:

Cerve wrote:

Grots got D2 in melee, so it's ok using them more for tought offensive unit than that super-durabile passive unit.

Tbh, I'm wondering how practical/effective it would be to make an army where almost everything aims to be in combat by turn 2.

Isn't that a standard Drukhari list? :p

It wil be in 9th, definitely.

Thank you @Oaka for mathing all of this out!

Thank you for spending the time to run these numbers! These do show that in general using AotF is quite similar to the Old PoF.

I would caution people from using these numbers for real-world applications. Strange things happen with Grots and their W4 profile when getting attacked with multi-damage attacks. 3 Damage Thunder Hammers are not too happy attacking them

So I played a game over the weekend against a very shooty DG list. I can honestly say that Artists of Flesh is very nice when running Talos and possibly Grots. I would also suggest bringing an Animus Vitae to get that 5++ as soon as possible.

We really do need to modify our thinking regarding the Covens. Grots/Talos seem to want to go a different way from Wracks.

Really enjoying the variability, even within this sub-faction of our Army

Regardnig the transporting Grots in a Raider. How do you see it? Our boats didn't become tougher. In contrary they lost -1 Damage and 6+++. If your boat explodes turn 1 and you roll a couple of 1s, the total damage will be much higher than from a volley of bolter fire.
I think this option is viable, but you should be very carefull with the Grots' Raider

SERAFF wrote:

Regardnig the transporting Grots in a Raider. How do you see it? Our boats didn't become tougher. In contrary they lost -1 Damage and 6+++. If your boat explodes turn 1 and you roll a couple of 1s, the total damage will be much higher than from a volley of bolter fire.
I think this option is viable, but you should be very carefull with the Grots' Raider

Someone pointed out that you can put 5 wracks and 3 Grots in a raider.
Totaling 5 liquifier.

CptMetal wrote:

Someone pointed out that you can put 5 wracks and 3 Grots in a raider.
Totaling 5 liquifier.

Personally, I hate the idea of Liquifiers on Grots - giving up AP-2 Damage 2 AND an extra attack in return for something that Wracks are a better platform for point-for-point anyway is quite the ask.

Especially since the Wracks are bringing enough poisoned AP-1 melee to outdo grots stuck with the Flesh Gauntlet against most targets anyway.
If you're looking to lean in on Liquifiers in Raiders, I don't see a reason to not go DT Wracks.