Archons - what is the best loadout?

Hey guys, time to mathhammer things, what is the best loadout for our lords of torture?

So far i seem to remember that last edition close combat Archon was combination of Djinblade and Hate Eternal. This is a good loadout, but a whiffy one, no extra defense. This guy kills things, until he fail that one save and then he is toast.

I've been thinking about Poisoned Tongue Archon and come up with interesting loadout. Slightly less damaging, but more reliable.

Archon, Master Upgrage, Agoniser, Soul Helm, Consumate Weapon Master.

This loadout will give
5 Poison 3+ AP-3 D2 attacks (Agonisers poison buffed by Poison Tongue upgrade and D2 comes from Weapon Master)
-1 to hit in shotting and CC
5+++ from Soul Helm, an extra layer of defense on shadowfield. I think you dont lose Shadowfield, if you save wound on FnP
Anything you kill in CC will have -1 to attrition tests, that can combine nicely with Dark Creed and grisly trophies upgrade
Another round of close combat once per game

For 2 CP he can wound vehicles on 3+.

I believe thats most optimal Poison Tongue Archon.

Whats your Archons on other obsessions?

I think Djinblade + Hatred Eternal is undoubtedly our best melee option.

I've been think about D2 Agonizers with Consummate Weaponmaster and PT, but what to take as Relic? If the Soul Seeker had 3 shots and AP-2 it would make a great build, but this way? No thanks.
I don't think we will see this that often because:
- 1: You get better poison with Torturous Efficiency + Merciless Razorshard.
- 2: This works best as a secondary Archon in a Batallion/second Patrol (since has has no relic). How often do we expect to see this?

If GW hadn't nerfed Flayed Skull for no reason I would probably take the Obsidian Veil. It helps the Archon with decently reliable durability and suddenly opens up options such as Soul Thirst or maybe even Famed Savagery for more fun builds.

And the Obsidian Rose Relic/Trait is just garbage.

Apart from pure melee, Archons with support options have gotten better. Since Writ of the Living Muse affects every <CORE> it's supremely powerful in a Realspace Raid. Couple that with Ancient Evil and you have a very versatile force multiplier.

I really can't think of anything else.

Much as I'd love for some of the more flavourful/esoteric artefacts and warlord traits to be good, I think Djin Blade plus Hatred Eternal is still king.

At least in my experience, the best way to keep an Archon alive is to make sure that anything he's standing next to is dead before it ever gets to swing.

With Master you've also got the 1/game fight twice ability in case you fail to kill your target even rerolling all failed hits and wounds.


In terms of other builds:

BH Archon w/ Power Sword, Writ & either Labyrinthine Cunning or Ancient Evil.

General buff build. With LC he can sit back and buff a long-range unit (ideally in RSR). With Ancient Evil he's buffing frontline units and can also make an enemy unit fight last to ensure his retinue all get to swing against them first.

I said Power Sword for this one but really pick your favourite melee weapon.

Archon w/ Huskblade, Hatred Eternal, Parasite's Kiss

Similar to the Djin Blade build, just more shooty. Probably not worth it as a primary Archon but could be useful as a secondary one if you've taken a different trait with the Djin Blade.


Lastly:

PT Archon w/ Agoniser, Soul Seeker, Soul Thirst

The 'why do I do this to myself' build. Someday he'll kill something worthwhile. Someday.


In terms of which builds I'll actually use, I've based it on my models and fluff. Hence, my current plan is to give my Warlord Archon the Djin Blade and Hatred Eternal, as his model includes a very nice sword and he's meant to be an efficient killer.

I'll also give the latter one with Soul Seeker and Soul Thirst a go as my secondary Archon, as he's meant to be more of a ranged character, leaning more towards being an assassin.

I suspect I can already tell you which of the two will be the most useful.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

I've been think about D2 Agonizers with Consummate Weaponmaster and PT, but what to take as Relic? If the Soul Seeker had 3 shots and AP-2 it would make a great build, but this way? No thanks.

Even if it had stayed AP-1, giving the Soul Seeker an extra shot and letting it retain its ability to ignore Line of Sight would have be a wonderful improvement and a chance for Archons to shine in a role other than melee.

I just find this exceptionally disappointing because out of all our weapons, this is the one that felt by far the most flavourful and by far the most emblematic of our army.

Given that no one even took it in 8th, I can't help but be disappointed that it got no substantial improvements and even lost one of its best abilities.

I feel the Archon is no longer a meat grinder, that's the succubus... and Drazhar. The Archon's duty is to give his aura, and to let his retinue (incubi, court) do the killing. Of course at smaller games or for secondary archons you can design a combat-oriented unit. Maybe you want him to go to the front lines, along with incubi, wyches, grotesques (and a Chronos for more buffs), but even then he needn't be a combat monster by himself. At some point, as a Master Archon he might jump in to give to finish off some unit with his two activations, but even then it's not like he needs to do it, he just enjoys joining the slaughter.

Alternative idea: Realspace Raider Archon (BH, Master, Ancient Evil, Djinn Blade), alongside with Chronos for rerolls in combat (together, reroll hits and wounds of 1), going to the front with your wyches/incubi/grots/talos.
And then, in a shooty wing of your army (not necessarily stationary), your secondary cheap BH Archon with Writ of the Living Muse (optionally, labyrinthine cunning), giving rerolls to kabalite trueborn/scourges/mandrakes/court at shooting.

I think I'm going to go with either venomblade or powersword. Having -1AP on the venomblade makes it a far more viable option than it has been in the past (aside from being the cheap option in previous editions).

For pure combat, a Djin Blade Master Archon with Hatred Eternal is the clear winner. However, in general, I think a utility build is going to win out; either a Venom Blade with Ancient Evil or Consummate Weaponmaster and Writ of the Living Muse looks very attractive to me currently.

There's nothing that the Archon can do which puts him anywhere near the absurd offense that a generic Succubus or Drazhar can throw out now. Which is fine, not a bad thing at all for our HQs to have different roles.

Out of interest, for those giving your Archons the Writ, what will you use him to buff?

Burnage wrote:

There's nothing that the Archon can do which puts him anywhere near the absurd offense that a generic Succubus or Drazhar can throw out now. Which is fine, not a bad thing at all for our HQs to have different roles.

For me at least, the frustrating thing is that the Archon still stuck with the same, crappy aura he was before. Yes, he can now buff Incubi instead of Ravagers, but that's a weird change if he's not meant to be any good in a fight.

Just to be clear, I don't mind the Archon moving to a support role. Hell, I've love it if he could take a Blaster or some other decent mid-range weapon (or for the sodding Soul Seeker to actually be worth a damn) so that he could lean more towards being a second-line shooty HQ. Then he'd have a niche that none of our other HQs can even attempt (with the Haemonculus having lost access to the Hexrifle, the longest ranged weapon any other HQ can access is a 12" pistol; and 2 of our HQs have 0 ranged weapons to speak of).

What bothers me is that no effort has been made to make him better in either a support role or a mid-range shooting role - they just made him even worse at combat (sans one specific combination of artefact and warlord trait).

I mean, the introduction of Master abilities seems like it would have been the perfect opportunity to give him an appropriate support ability. Instead, he gets to fight twice 1/battle. What.

I just don't understand what they were going for here.

He's a front-line support unit IMO. Can't speak for anyone else but I'm planning on using him to buff Incubi and Scourges when they drop down.

Is Archon reciting poetry to 10 DL Scourges the new Archon reciting poetry to 3 Dissie Ravagers?

I prefer the frontline buffer, as it looks more fun to play.

Burnage wrote:

He's a front-line support unit IMO. Can't speak for anyone else but I'm planning on using him to buff Incubi and Scourges when they drop down.

I also plan on using an archon as Incubi support. Potentially Archon supporting Incubi with Succubus supporting Wyches could make a big hole in anything in the game.

The list I'm building now has 2 Venoms with 5 Incubi. One with Drazhar in spot #6, and the other with an Archon. Curious to see how it works out...

So I have done 3 games now. Ive done a BH archon in a RSR detachment with writ. I felt like I didnt get much use after turn 2 as my stuff began to move about the board and spread out.

In the last 2 games I did the Animus Vitae. It was pretty damn clutch moving all units from pfp 2 to 3 or 3 to 4 for a turn.

I agree, he is not a cc monster, but he can clear an objective of 5 marines just fine or just hang out and buff your incubi.

Vailex wrote:

I agree, he is not a cc monster, but he can clear an objective of 5 marines just fine

I assume you're referring to a very specific build with this? i.e. Djin Blade + Hatred Eternal.

Because otherwise you're talking about rolling vastly above average. In fact, if he's wielding anything other than a Huskblade, it's literally impossible for him to kill 5 Marines in one round. Because he can inflict 5 wounds at most and there are 10 in that Marine squad. And even with the Huskblade, every single attack would have to hit and then wound (needing a 5+) and then your opponent would have to fail every single 5+ save.

The base Archon (regardless of weapon) has to roll above average just to kill a single Marine. Even if you add stuff like Lethal Precision with a PT Agoniser, the most you can expect to kill is 2 Marines in one round.

This is my whole issue with the current version. It's fine if you have just one Archon and you take the one good wargear loadout. But if you have a second or if you want him to do anything else (like carrying the Writ or a gun or the helm of spite or a defensive relic or basically anything other than the Djin Blade), you basically have to sacrifice his melee ability entirely.

Based on any non-relic weapon, the Archon does 1.74 wounds to a standard marine in close combat. Pathetic!

Quote :

This is my whole issue with the current version. It's fine if you have just one Archon and you take the one good wargear loadout. But if you have a second or if you want him to do anything else (like carrying the Writ or a gun or the helm of spite or a defensive relic or basically anything other than the Djin Blade), you basically have to sacrifice his melee ability entirely.

Not really, in my opinion. I see 3 types of Archons:

1. Melee output - Hate Eternal/DjinBlade, Master Upgrade, any Kabal or Custom (Damage 3 CC weapon)
Kills about 4,2 Intercessors from one activation. Kills about 3.11 Gravis Marines from one activation

2. Balanced atack/defense/buff (Damage 2 CC weapon)
- Poison Tongue agoniser, weapon master, soul armor, master - 2,25 Intercessors from one activation
- Obsidian Rose - huskblade and blast pistol, +1S to strenght WT, Armor of Misery, master.   1,73 Intercessors from one activation
- Flayed Skull - husk blade, +1 to S and A WT, 4++, master 2,1 Intercessors from one activation
3. Buffer/Debuffer (Damage 1 CC weapon)
- Black Heart - Buff - Venom Blade, Writ/Animus, Cunning 1,73 wound on intercessor from one activation
- Black Heart - Debuff - Venom Blade, Helm of spite, Ancient Evil

1.Out of all 3 actually first archon, pure melee archon doesnt gain too much from any Kabal Rules and can go to custom traits like Twisted Hunter and some other trairs. He is the only who is effective in killing Gravis armor models and characters with 5-6 wounds (all primaris HQ).

2. Balanced Archons are good if you want to bring 10 man trueborn squads, because all 3 Kabal except for Black Heart buffs Trueborn very well with either +1 to poison, +6 to range and reroll and special weapons or basically less AP on units in cover.

3. Buff debuff archons are in my opinion the best bang for buck, 65 points opposed to 85 , they dont require master upgrade, dont really need to be in combat, just near it, they affect the game regardless of combat, can use AoV, buff tranports and incubi to advance and charge from turn 1. He is your mastermind archon, revealing clever stratagies (more CP), foiling enemy chosen strategy (AoV), submit others into fighting better (Writ).

Its basically a choice between Murder Machine, that is worse then other Murder Machines in codex except for a single role (3 wounds models), a more rounded character that stays around longer and buff trueborn or other kabalites and strategic archon that isnt that good in combat, but gives tangible benefits to your army.

So it really depends on your army composition. If you bring 10 incubi and Drazhar you dont need CC archon at all. If you load on kabalites and trueborn for whatever reason, something not from black heart might do.  

If you run realspace raiders, or kabal units are the smallest part of your army, just pick black heart and select buff debuff loadout and load everyone in fastest black heart transports.

And i dont really see a point to evaluate Archon in base loadout. He is clearly designed around artifacts and warlord traits and kabal obsessions.

Azdrubael wrote:

2. Balanced atack/defense/buff (Damage 2 CC weapon)
- Poison Tongue agoniser, weapon master, soul armor, master
- Obsidian Rose - huskblade and blast pistol, +1S to strenght WT, Armor of Misery, master.
- Flayed Skull - husk blade, +1 to S and A WT, 4++, master

But this goes back to the point I was making - you're having to use a Warord Trait just to get their damage to a level that isn't utterly pitiful.

Imagine if a Tau Commander could only be equipped with the equivalent of Bolt Pistols, and needed to take a Warlord Trait just to get meaningful ranged damage output.

Do you think Tau players would shrug because their commanders can technically access half-decent damage output if they take a specific trait? Or would they be understandably peeved that characters that are supposed to be good at ranged combat suck at ranged combat if you take anything other than that one specific trait?

Quote :

Do you think Tau players would shrug because their commanders can technically access half-decent damage output if they take a specific trait?

Its hard to judge different codexes on the same merit. I play admech for example and i literally couldnt care less what weapons most of my HQ are carrying. I only use them to buff my troops. And yeah, i do realy on specific warlord traits for that and in the case of my only HQ who do frontline duty, on a combination of warlord trait, relic and his rules.

And its not half-decent. Its good, for their points. I mean 14 S4 attacks with full rerollable wounds and hits with Damage 3 and -3 AP? For 85 points? Yes, please.

65 points for buffer, that does reroll 1hits and wounds, generate CP and make strats more expensive? I pay 80 just for rerolls and sturdy defensive statline. Its a good HQ, i dont feel bad taking it.

Azdrubael wrote:

And its not half-decent. Its good, for their points.

A 65pt Archon is outclassed by a 16pt Incubus.

If you give the Archon a Warlord trait to increase their damage *and* you've giving them a specific weapon in a specific Kabal, they're still outclasses by 2 16pt Incubi.

So now you've invested quite a bit into their melee prowess and they're *still* outclassed by 2 models that collectively cost less than half what the Archon costs.

By what possible measure is that "good for their points"?

Sorry but this the Archon is utterly abysmal for their points.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Azdrubael wrote:

And its not half-decent. Its good, for their points.

A 65pt Archon is outclassed by a 16pt Incubus.

If you give the Archon a Warlord trait to increase their damage *and* you've giving them a specific weapon in a specific Kabal, they're still outclasses by 2 16pt Incubi.

So now you've invested quite a bit into their melee prowess and they're *still* outclassed by 2 models that collectively cost less than half what the Archon costs.

By what possible measure is that "good for their points"?

Sorry but this the Archon is utterly abysmal for their points.

Well, that's simply not true. You're just picking the melee capacity of the Archon, which is not the whole value of 65 points.
You should add almost:
-Being intargetable because he is a character!;
-+2 attacks;
-+4 wounds;
-Reroll bubble;
-The mandatory slot fullfilled (HQ);
-Heroic intervention being a character;
-Having a smaller footprint being a single model on 28mm base.
-The expendable 2++

A model is not just melee capabilty. These are all point value (I got nothing that allows you to buy stuff, pr O would add relics, wl traits and the Court too).

The Archon is well worth his points. On average he will take out more than his points value before he dies which is normally a very basic way of working out the economic value of a unit. That’s without the buffs he gives.

I think there are some decent Archon builds outside of pure melee builds. I personally love you idea of having a Succubus as the muscle and the Archon and Heamy as the brains.

Cerve wrote:

Well, that's simply not true. You're just picking the melee capacity of the Archon, which is not the whole value of 65 points.
You should add almost:
-Being intargetable because he is a character!;
-+2 attacks;
-+4 wounds;
-Reroll bubble;
-The mandatory slot fullfilled (HQ);
-Heroic intervention being a character;
-Having a smaller footprint being a single model on 28mm base.
-The expendable 2++

A model is not just melee capabilty. These are all point value (I got nothing that allows you to buy stuff, pr O would add relics, wl traits and the Court too).

So why is it that other HQs can have all of those things and yet still manage to not completely suck at their job?

A Canoness gets character protection, she gets an aura, she has an invulnerable save, she fulfils a mandatory slot, she has a small footprint etc. etc.

However, in spite of having all of those things, she's still allowed access to a melee weapon that's actually worth a damn. Not as a relic. Not with a warlord trait. But as a piece of standard wargear. The Blessed Blade is S+2 AP-3 D1d3. It was already vastly better than our standard Huskblade back in 8th, yet the Huskblade has actually received a significant nerf since then. Thus, even though the Archon has 1 more attack than the Canoness, the Canoness actually chews through almost twice as many marines as the Archon does.

If you want a different example, I'll give you one from our own codex - the Succubus. She, too, has twice the damage output of the Succubus against Marines.


"But Soulless, it's not fait to compare the Archon to the Succubus because the Succubus is meant to be a melee character!"

Ah yes, the succubus is meant to be a melee character while the Archon is clearly meant to be a... what exactly? His longest ranged weapon (artefacts notwithstanding) is 12". And that's a basic Splinter Pistol which is about as effective as breaking wind at the enemy. In fact, the Archon and Succubus have exactly the same ranged weapons. They even both have access to the same Artefact pistol. The only ranged weapon the Archon can take that the Succubus can't is the Soul Seeker, which is abysmal even on its own merits. So unless the Archon is supposed to be built around a crap pistol that is only accessible to a single Archon in a specific Kabal, I think it's fair to say that the Archon isn't supposed to be a ranged character.

Ah, but clearly he's meant to be a support character because he has an aura. Oh wait, the Succubus has an aura as well. Ah but the Archon's aura works on ranged attacks as well so clearly the Archon is meant to support ranged units, in spite of the fact that he can't do anything at range beyond twiddling his thumbs.

So which ranged units is the Archon buffing? Trueborn and Kabalites would be the obvious choices, right up until you remember that they want to be riding around in Raiders and Venoms and the Archon's aura ceases to function in either of those. So we can rule those out. I guess he can buff his court. A Poison Tongue Archon with the Soul Seeker could maybe fly around in a Venom with some Sslyth and shoot at 18". Oh wait, they're still in a Venom and so don't get the bonus. So I guess they could get out of the Venom and stand right in front of their target blowing raspberries at it (he's not a melee character, don't forget, so they don't want to be doing anything as rash as charging that target). Oh and he can also buff Lhamaeans' Splinter Pistols. Truly the Archon's buffing power is unmatched. At least now he can buff the mighty ranged attacks of Incubi.

Let's be honest, the Archon is a melee character because melee is the only place he can meaningfully buff units. For all intents and purposes, his aura is only marginally better than that of the Succubus (who, let's not forget, is not without abilities of her own - No Escape, for one), yet he pays an exceptionally high price for it. And, as evidenced by the Canoness above, a far higher price than other HQs with comparable auras.

Finally, let's not forget that his Master ability is fight twice 1/battle - which once again pins him very much as a melee character, not a buffing or strategic one.


Look, there are many things about the new book that I like. In terms of HQs, I think the current Succubus is a fantastic improvement and I love that Master Succubi can now dance around and out of combat. I like that Trueborn are a thing. I like that Incubi really feel like elite MEQ-killers. I'm happy to say that an awful lot of stuff has been improved.

But is it really so hard to accept that maybe, just maybe, GW made a bit of a hash of the Archon?

Well, still, if you want to discuss how to best use your Archon how GW gave him to us, thread is here.

Azdrubael wrote:

Well, still, if you want to discuss how to best use your Archon how GW gave him to us, thread is here.

No, that's fair.


In that case, I don't know if this should be separate discussion from the Archon or not, but what about the Archon's court?

- Sslyth seem pretty good if you want a more protective unit, compared to Incubi. Not as killy but 3 wounds apiece, bodyguard and all wielding Shardcarbines. They also seem like the only Kabal unit that can take advantage of the Archon's ability to buff both melee and ranged attacks.

- Lhamaeans seem like something you might include one of to protect against crashes. Kind of a shame they have so much anti-synergy with Poison Tongue.

- Ur-Ghuls at least have decent AP now but I struggle to see myself taking them over Incubi or Sslyth.

- Medusae are okay on their own but don't seem to have any synergy with the Archon. And if you're using Coven they're entirely outclassed by DE Liquifier Wracks.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

No, that's fair.


In that case, I don't know if this should be separate discussion from the Archon or not, but what about the Archon's court?

Honestly, in my opinion 4 Sslyth and *maybe* an Ur-Ghul airbag is the winner if you wanna bring a Court at all. 12 wounds with a 5+ FNP, and 12 S5 AP-2 attacks, for 72 points? 88 points with the Ur-Ghul adding another 3 wounds and 4-6 S4 AP-1 attacks? A completely valid pick if you're looking for something to chill with an Archon in a Venom or to fill the second half of a Raider. Just-killy-enough to shift min-size squads off of objectives with their archon's help, just-sturdy-enough that it's hard to shift them back without putting in some real effort. For something that's under 100 points, that's actually pretty good.

Medusae are overshadowed by DT Wracks - but if you're taking AoP Grots/Taloi or one of the 'proper' Obsessions instead of DT Liquifier Spam, I think 4x Medusae have some utility.
For my own sake I'd rather have the sneks. Everyone loves the sneks.

But honestly you'll find me hard pressed to pick even the sneks over 5 Incubi as the go-to option for bodyguarding the archon. The best way to not get shifted is to make the enemy swing last and then slaughter him before he gets to lift a finger.

Yeah, Sneks are definitely the court unit I'm most eager to try out.

I suspect you'll be right that simply murderising stuff with Incubi will be the best way to keep your Archon safe but I can't deny I'm interested in 3 wounds for 18pts each, with guns, blades, PfP and FNP.

I kind of wish you could split off members of the court. Could be fun to include a single Medusae in a Venom with Warriors, for example.

mynamelegend wrote:

Ur-Ghul airbag

I now have a strange urge to write a slogan on my command Venom - "In case of emergency, try to land on the Ur-Ghul."