Goonhammer article - Are Drukhari Too Good?

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Doing the math, receiving a Mortal Wound on a 1 to wound doesn't even hurt us that bad. With a 5+ FNP it would be 0.3 Mortal Wounds per attack. Considering how powerful the effect is, it's only fair and doesn't make the weapon unusable.

I make it closer to 0.4, which doesn't sound that bad but you don't lose 0.4 of a Wrack. You either lose one Wrack or you don't. Damage on 1s to wound shifts it from 'why would not use it?' to 'why would you use it?', which is exactly the problem with most of GWs heavy-handed 'fixes'.

It also likely would just switch the issue from wracks to grots. Taking more mortal wounds on a 4 wound model lessens the impact. Granted, they are more expensive but you also get more liquifiers.

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Cerve wrote:

It was intended. But they completely misjudge the effectiveness of that on embarked Wracks.

1s on number of shots still too less dangerous for not trigger that. DT should be something that you should think twice before triggering it. Not something you're going to use every time you shoot with.
1s on wounds is the most likely nerf, for me. You SHOULD take casualties AND shredding enemy models with them. It's not about avoiding the 1s, it's about a kamikaze effect that you have to trigger carefully.
+1 to wound and +1 dmg together. Guys...damn, BA were broken with just half of the effect, on melee. DT Wracks embarked on Raiders are completely no-sense right now.

Agreed. It's a cool gimmick and it might have been the intention, but the effect is way over the top.
Doing the math, receiving a Mortal Wound on a 1 to wound doesn't even hurt us that bad. With a 5+ FNP it would be 0.3 Mortal Wounds per attack. Considering how powerful the effect is, it's only fair and doesn't make the weapon unusable.

Again, that strictly punishes Talos and Chronos and does absolutely nothing at all to affect wracks, which is the actual issue. Talos and Chronos take D3 mortal wounds and those mortal wounds are always taken on models that actually have the weapons doing the damage.

Wracks simply don't care. You take 1 mortal wound and if you fail the FNP, a model without a liquifier gun dies.

If they change it to triggering on 1s, you will continue to see DT wrack spam with liquifiers. You will not see DT Talos or Chronos at all (and they are already not the problem).

1s to wound (or 1 on number of hits for that matter) does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to solve the problem people are trying to fix.

Dalamar wrote:

So I just listened to the Art of War Down Under podcast that I linked in the Tiers thread.  At the end of the podcast Adam asked Peter an interesting question.  "Could we be playing with to much terrain".  His thought process was that since the beginning of 9th there has been a put more terrain on the table mentality because with only the Crons and Marines only playing against 8th ed. Codices the GW suggested terrain was seen as to sparse and not playable.  Now Our book comes out and we can Mech up everything and almost everything can be hidden turn 1 where as on GW terrain setup maybe 3 things on the board can be protected turn 1.

Just some food for thought.  

3x6 Hive Guard every game and Devilgaunts let's go!

But this is true: In almost all my games, I have never lost a Raider to direct fire unless they were completely exposed. It's way too easy to hide all my Raiders.

Compare this to previous editions and if you showed up against a gunline, you're completely hosed. Now, gunlines don't scare me nearly as much. Going second is almost a boon 8/10.

Thats the thing that the goonhammer article does not mention. Internal balance. If you nerf DT too hard you are left with pretty much no Coven. They don't care as long as Dark Eldar have a 50% win rate. As if warhammer 40k could ever be perfectly balanced.

Once people figure out the magic of str 6/7 ignore LOS stuff with bonuses we will have problems going second. Wyches hoofing it across the field is not ideal.

The other thing that is not mentioned is that this edition in general is all about speed, hot nasty speed. Get on those objectives turn 2 and push your opponent off. This is why DG are not at the top of the heap right now. Their obsec is too damn slow and nobody wants to take rhinos.

In the article, they actually dismiss rhino's as a legit strat against us but I disagree. Try it atleast.

[quote="sekac"]

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Again, that strictly punishes Talos and Chronos and does absolutely nothing at all to affect wracks, which is the actual issue. Talos and Chronos take D3 mortal wounds and those mortal wounds are always taken on models that actually have the weapons doing the damage.

Wracks simply don't care. You take 1 mortal wound and if you fail the FNP, a model without a liquifier gun dies.

If they change it to triggering on 1s, you will continue to see DT wrack spam with liquifiers. You will not see DT Talos or Chronos at all (and they are already not the problem).

1s to wound (or 1 on number of hits for that matter) does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to solve the problem people are trying to fix.

That makes sense really. Talos are really in a hard spot right now. I have tried to make them work but they end up being nothing but a wound magnet. If they nerf DT so it does not work on liquifiers at all then your competitive lists will be something like:

1. patrol - kabal
2. patrol - cult of strife
3. patrol - NOT coven

I mean i hope Skari proves me wrong with Dark Creed and such but time will tell.

I haven't played with Coven at all and I'm doing just fine. In fact, I draw more positive matchups vs. supposed DE counters because I have more lances and Wyches The scale just shifts if you cut out Coven.

Vailex wrote:

Thats the thing that the goonhammer article does not mention.  Internal balance.  If you nerf DT too hard you are left with pretty much no Coven.

Coven having to lean on a single trait isn't exactly a great level of internal balance either - I'd much rather DT get toned down and Covens units gets overall buffs to bring them up as a whole.

Burnage wrote:

Vailex wrote:

Thats the thing that the goonhammer article does not mention.  Internal balance.  If you nerf DT too hard you are left with pretty much no Coven.

Coven having to lean on a single trait isn't exactly a great level of internal balance either - I'd much rather DT get toned down and Covens units gets overall buffs to bring them up as a whole.

Considering how they all share the same units, points adjustments won't be the ideal way to do it. It's not like adjusting points is going to help Talos in POF for example.

I think Dark Creed might see a bit more play if DT Wracks get nerfed, but even then it will be for min Patrol if taken at all.

Cerve wrote:

I totally agree with the article, nothing more to say.

I'm sure you could be persuaded to say more, if we ask nicely.

Here's a similar article, this one from Smughammer:

Quote :

SMUGHAMMER

DWEEBGABBLE

In today's Dweebgabble we are joined by three of the world's top dweebs to discuss why the Drukhari, of all things, are winning tournaments and what we can do about it. Our guests are:

Phil "Data" Puffbubble
Carlo "Ciccio" Pezzola
John "John" Johnson

Q. In your opinion, are the Drukhari actually overpowered, and how do you know?

Phil: I never have opinions, only data. For example, I am the best of the best at 40K, and the data proves it. You can't argue with my data, I even make it into graphs, in colour and everything. It stands to reason that if I'm being beaten by some weirdo army that no one even cares about, it must be overpowered. It is not because I planned for a very different kind of opponent and they took me by surprise -- that doesn't make any sense. The data proves it.

Carlo: I've never played in any tournaments, but I'm a super-special person and I know more about 40K than anyone else. My mum says so. I'm also more pure of heart, virtuous, clever, and superior to everyone else, and I'm more sexy than Brad Pitt and Idris Elba put together. Again, just ask my mum. I play Drukhari because I'm super-special, but if they become so good that anyone can play and win with them, how will people know how super-special I am? Therefore yes, they are overpowered.

John: I dunno. I won the Acme Holiday Special and Clam Chowder Weekend Tournament playing Drukhari, but I actually thought it had something to do with me playing rather well. But apparently that's not possible, so yeah, I guess.

Q. What is it about the Drukhari that makes them so overpowered?

Phil: According to the data, there are two things about the Drukhari that makes them overpowered. First, that they are able to kill my guys. They should not be able to do that. And second, that they don't die fast enough when my guys try to kill them. There shouldn't be any Drukhari models left on the table by turn 3.

Carlo: What makes them overpowered is the fact that other people can play and win with them. instead of just me.

John: I mean, yeah I did win, but it's not as if it was easy. Seriously, I tried really hard.

Q. Can Drukhari be beaten by just bringing more versatile lists to the 'meta'?

Phil: Maybe, but why should we? I should be winning with the same kind of list that I've been playing since the beginning of 9th edition. The data proves it.

Carlo: I never have any trouble winning, even without the new codex. I am undefeated among all the eight year-olds in my local parish.

John: I really worked hard for that clam chowder.

Q. So, what sort of massive nerfs shall we pressure GW into making, so that the Drukhari go back on the shelves where they belong?

Phil: Take away all of their toys. Their 2 extra command points, their cool characters, their relics, and their ability to take whatever they want in a detachment as if they were just like every other army. Also limit the number of Raiders they can have. And snap off the delicate spiky bits from all their miniatures that are really a pain to try to glue back on.

Carlo: Yes, that's a good start. Also, raise their points. I don't see why a 10-wound T6 vehicle should not cost as much as a Land Raider, or why a kabalite warrior should cost less than a Deathwing terminator.

John: I guess I'll just play Sisters of Battle, that ought to make everyone happy.

In conclusion, we're okay with other armies dominating the field for a little while as long as it's Space Marines, or Death Guard, or anything else Imperial and/or with power armour, or even Craftworld Eldar a few editions ago, but not the Drukhari. They are weird and we don't like them.

Stay tuned next week for our in-depth analysis of why we're better than you, and you actually suck.

I thought it was an interesting article, and I totally agree.

Sweetness! How long did it take you to write that?

That Dweebgabble article is beautiful!

Lol that was rich. Thanks

10/10
would turn off adblock for your website

sekac wrote:

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Cerve wrote:

It was intended. But they completely misjudge the effectiveness of that on embarked Wracks.

1s on number of shots still too less dangerous for not trigger that. DT should be something that you should think twice before triggering it. Not something you're going to use every time you shoot with.
1s on wounds is the most likely nerf, for me. You SHOULD take casualties AND shredding enemy models with them. It's not about avoiding the 1s, it's about a kamikaze effect that you have to trigger carefully.
+1 to wound and +1 dmg together. Guys...damn, BA were broken with just half of the effect, on melee. DT Wracks embarked on Raiders are completely no-sense right now.

Agreed. It's a cool gimmick and it might have been the intention, but the effect is way over the top.
Doing the math, receiving a Mortal Wound on a 1 to wound doesn't even hurt us that bad. With a 5+ FNP it would be 0.3 Mortal Wounds per attack. Considering how powerful the effect is, it's only fair and doesn't make the weapon unusable.

Again, that strictly punishes Talos and Chronos and does absolutely nothing at all to affect wracks, which is the actual issue. Talos and Chronos take D3 mortal wounds and those mortal wounds are always taken on models that actually have the weapons doing the damage.

Wracks simply don't care. You take 1 mortal wound and if you fail the FNP, a model without a liquifier gun dies.

If they change it to triggering on 1s, you will continue to see DT wrack spam with liquifiers. You will not see DT Talos or Chronos at all (and they are already not the problem).

1s to wound (or 1 on number of hits for that matter) does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to solve the problem people are trying to fix.

But why you're struggling to put Talos and Cronos on DT? It's ok to have Obsessions that works better with some units than others. It's not that "DT shouldn't change in that way because Talos still sucks with DT", who cares? DT, as PoF is an obsession that works better with Wracks, nothing else and it's totally fine.

Talos right now are redundant because Raiders are so stupidly good that makes them god-tier, and you simply don't need Talos on lists. But they're far from being "bad". You should just play them as DarkCreed or Artists of the Flesh, and 3 are just enough. They've changed their role, they're bullet spooge, distraction carnifex, not the durable middle-board anvil they were before. You can field like 6 Raiders and 3 Talos and you're fine. They draw the same fire power that draw Raiders from themselves, that the opponent simply can't ignore. But at the same time, if you lose them you will be fine, nothing happens. That's their new role.
You NEED them? Heck no. But our codex is full of super good units that are just surpassed by few other extremely good units.





As the Coven, there are alredy 1st places with DarkCreed. DT is definitely not the mandatory Coven for competitive plays, just the laziest one (which is fine, you want to compete, doing that with less efforts it's ok on high levels, but still)

I agree with @Cerve on this. DT doesnt have to benefit Talos and Cronos.

But it doesnt punish them. Just shoot with the normal weapon profile. The Codex says:
You can choose to improve the weapon. You dont have to. No advantage, but also no malus.

Cerve wrote:

sekac wrote:

The Strange Dark One wrote:

Cerve wrote:

It was intended. But they completely misjudge the effectiveness of that on embarked Wracks.

1s on number of shots still too less dangerous for not trigger that. DT should be something that you should think twice before triggering it. Not something you're going to use every time you shoot with.
1s on wounds is the most likely nerf, for me. You SHOULD take casualties AND shredding enemy models with them. It's not about avoiding the 1s, it's about a kamikaze effect that you have to trigger carefully.
+1 to wound and +1 dmg together. Guys...damn, BA were broken with just half of the effect, on melee. DT Wracks embarked on Raiders are completely no-sense right now.

Agreed. It's a cool gimmick and it might have been the intention, but the effect is way over the top.
Doing the math, receiving a Mortal Wound on a 1 to wound doesn't even hurt us that bad. With a 5+ FNP it would be 0.3 Mortal Wounds per attack. Considering how powerful the effect is, it's only fair and doesn't make the weapon unusable.

Again, that strictly punishes Talos and Chronos and does absolutely nothing at all to affect wracks, which is the actual issue. Talos and Chronos take D3 mortal wounds and those mortal wounds are always taken on models that actually have the weapons doing the damage.

Wracks simply don't care. You take 1 mortal wound and if you fail the FNP, a model without a liquifier gun dies.

If they change it to triggering on 1s, you will continue to see DT wrack spam with liquifiers. You will not see DT Talos or Chronos at all (and they are already not the problem).

1s to wound (or 1 on number of hits for that matter) does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to solve the problem people are trying to fix.

But why you're struggling to put Talos and Cronos on DT? It's ok to have Obsessions that works better with some units than others. It's not that "DT shouldn't change in that way because Talos still sucks with DT", who cares? DT, as PoF is an obsession that works better with Wracks, nothing else and it's totally fine.

Talos right now are redundant because Raiders are so stupidly good that makes them god-tier, and you simply don't need Talos on lists. But they're far from being "bad". You should just play them as DarkCreed or Artists of the Flesh, and 3 are just enough. They've changed their role, they're bullet spooge, distraction carnifex, not the durable middle-board anvil they were before. You can field like 6 Raiders and 3 Talos and you're fine. They draw the same fire power that draw Raiders from themselves, that the opponent simply can't ignore. But at the same time, if you lose them you will be fine, nothing happens. That's their new role.
You NEED them? Heck no. But our codex is full of super good units that are just surpassed by few other extremely good units.





As the Coven, there are alredy 1st places with DarkCreed. DT is definitely not the mandatory Coven for competitive plays, just the laziest one (which is fine, you want to compete, doing that with less efforts it's ok on high levels, but still)

You're only addressing half my point.

People are concerned that DT wracks are too good. The proposed solutions only punish Talos and Chronos, they do nothing to change wracks.

People spam DT wracks. If they make it cause a mortal wound on 1s to wound, the result is people will continue to spam DT wracks.

"Wracks are too good, so let's nerf Talos!" Is very horrible logic.

There is no Talos nerf. DT just dont benefit them.

Zenotaph wrote:

There is no Talos nerf. DT just dont benefit them.

Because twin liquifiers on a Talos aren't benefited by DT? Ha. I made 3 Talos twin-liquifier arms after the codex dropped, for general use (because liquifiers don't suck anymore) and for DT use.

Then just use the normal weapon profile. Thats it. No wounds to the Talos.

Edit: Sorry! I read it the wrong way. I could blame the beer for that, though...

DT benefits the twin liquifer of course.

Well, it's a moot point, for the time being at least. The FAQ left DT as is. They decided to nerf Master Nemesine, of all things.

I'm fine with that, especially with the very real possibility of even stronger codices on the horizon.

Zenotaph wrote:

There is no Talos nerf. DT just dont benefit them.

People have suggested changing DT to cause 1s to wound to "fix" wracks. Two issues with that:

1) It only causes a MW on the unit, so worst case scenario, an 8 point model with 2 poison attacks dies. The liquifier is still standing and still doing a lot of damage with no risk to itself until all naked wracks are dead. People will still spam wracks, it fixes nothing.

2) It would cause Talos and Chronos to take D3 MWs, impacting them greatly.

So, as a "solution" it both doesn't solve the problem you're trying to solve and has unintended consequences for units that are not the problem you're trying to solve.

There is simply no sensible argument for making that change. People keep suggesting it anyway because it feels like they're coming up with ideas. Doing nothing at all (my preference) is better than randomly punishing other units instead of the one viewed as a problem.

krayd wrote:

They decided to nerf Master Nemesine, of all things.

No it didn't do anything at all before since all of the haemonculs weapons are poisoned. Well, I guess it made them wound vehicles and titanic units on 5s rather than 6s, but that's it. They had to change it, because it was utterly useless.

krayd wrote:

Well, it's a moot point, for the time being at least. The FAQ left DT as is. They decided to nerf Master Nemesine, of all things.

I'm fine with that, especially with the very real possibility of even stronger codices on the horizon.

The FAQ is to fix errors in the book not to nerf or change things. Also Master Nemesis literally didn't work b.c poison is inmod, i figure they change it to a way to work with unmod but instead its re-roll wounds of 1, still working poorly is better than not working at all.

Ah. I forgot about the fact that all of the haemonculus weapons were poison, and thus, +1 to wound is of limited use - though it does allow the haemonculus to wound T3 on 3+ with the scissorhand, which is a feature that the designers thought warranted the scissorhand costing twice as much as an electrocorrosive whip, despite having the same stats, except for the lower S on the whip.

Scissor hands is still poison though lol and there is no cost you just get it on the Haemonculus now, there are no optional weapons, no Ele whip, etc.. You only get Haemocnulus tool, Scissor hands, and Ichor Inject now.

amishprn86 wrote:

Scissor hands is still poison though lol and there is no cost you just get it on the Haemonculus now, there are no optional weapons, no Ele whip, etc..  You only get Haemocnulus tool, Scissor hands, and Ichor Inject now.

I'm referring to the costs on the acothyst. Scissorhand is twice the cost of the whip, though the stats are all the same, except that Scissorhand is Strength user, and the whip is Strength 2. The only reason that I can see for that is that if you take any trait that gives +1S (like experimental creations), then the scissorhand will wound T3 on 3+, due to the strength of the wrack being 4. Otherwise, there is no difference between the two weapons.