A returning players opinions on our units; Archon

The lords of Commorragh in editions past archons used to be the absolute top tier of melee HQ choices, even a hive tyrant had cause to get a little nervous around these guys in 3rd edition, but things change so let's see how they stack up in 9th.

The Archon
Stat wise the archon is about what you would expect for a middling melee hero, sitting between the Heamonculus and succubus as he does, his base options are very heavily dependent on the relics, obsession and warlord traits you give him. The melee weapons by them selves just aren't as good as they could be so the archon is always going to want either to be the warlord or to have some cp invested into him to make him more killy. A couple of builds are;

Poisoned tongue, agoniser, consumate weapons master; 5 attacks that wound on 3+ at damage 2 with the ability to fight a second time once per battle is potent.

Hatred eternal, djinblade; Good for all cabals 7 attacks rerolling everything at damage 3, again you can take the master upgrade for the aditional fight.

Famed savagery, djinblade; 8 strength 5 attacks is never bad, while you wont get the rerolls you get with hatred eternal, you do get a better stat block to start with.

And there are more, ancient evil is very popular in most armies, the ability to make the enemy go last is no joke. Ranged wise the archon has access to a few options, but most of the good ones are relics and so compete for slots.

Defensively the archon has his long time favorite the shadow field 2+ invun that breaks if it's failed (picks up dice, anything but a 1) it's good, generally it will soak up more damage than most invuns before it pops but you have to be careful about where you loose it, loosing it to the enemy lord isn't so bad but loosing it to small arms fire is terrible. After it's gone you are squishy so take care to kill your target before it becomes a problem.

The overlord skill provides some rerolls to cabalites, courts and most importantly Incubi, squeezing every last hit out of your incubi is important and the archon makes those extra hits work for you.

I think it would of been nicer to have more options for an archons gear it kinda feels like their basic kit doesn't get the job done any more which is sad.

Well that's the end of this series, since there's no Vect to review I hope you all enjoyed it. Time to do more painting so I can play some games!

I second that more options (even ones I have to convert) would be lovely. I plan to run mine in a venom with some incubi. So have actually been agonising over whether to have him rerolling or making the opponent fight last. Though if I end up with a character and some other enemy unit in combat I definitely would want that extra fight last so I can fully dominate the fight. Also definitely liking Djin blade builds, though as I'm also building a crusade list not sure it fits to have something so powerful from the get-go... So I like seeing other builds that dont exclusively focus on Djin blade as the only option

I've said this before but for me, the Archon is in a very strange position in that his basic wargear and abilities give him no role whatsoever within an army.

He's the leader of the Kabal faction (I thought they were supposed to be the overall raid leaders but whatever), which specialises in ranged shooting from open-topped vehicles.

So how does the Archon fit into that particular theme? By having an aura that doesn't function in vehicles, backed up by the worst ranged weapon in the entire army.

Okay, guess we can rule out ranged support.

Still, his aura does work on melee units so I guess he must be a melee unit? This is further evidenced by the fact that his Master ability is strictly melee (because what with the Succubus being melee and the Haemonculus having all his guns removed, what DE desperately needed was a third melee HQ). The flaw in this is that the Archon's melee weapons are utterly abysmal. Seriously, he'd be laughed out of the room by a Platoon Commander. Not a single one of his weapons can average even the 2 wounds necessary to kill a Marine.

And while Artefacts and Warlord traits can improve this a little (though anything not involving the Djin Blade is only going to bring his melee up to 'passable' at best), I don't know any other HQ that needs to take artefacts and warlord traits just to be passable at their core function. Imagine if Farseers had no psychic powers and instead had to take a warlord trait to learn a psychic power and then an artefact to cast it. That's the level we're dealing with here.

Anyway, in terms of builds, I'm of the opinion that from a competitive standpoint, Huskblade + Hatred Eternal is the only build that's worth a damn.

Obviously you can do other builds for fun or flavour or because your list includes 2+ Archons and they can't share the Huskblade but this would definitely be my first pick for any Archon. It gives you solid melee (which is where the Archon apparently wants to be, if only because he basically can't do anything else) and also lets you make the best use of the Master ability.

In terms of other builds, Consummate Weaponmaster on a Power Sword gives you an 8th edition Huskblade (though it's probably slightly better on an Agoniser or Venom Blade). As does Famed Savagery and Deathly Perfectionist on a Huskblade (with the former giving you +1A to boot).

Unfortunately, one of the things I've noticed is that there's a bit of an overload of melee Warlord Traits for Archons. All three of the base traits provide some sort of melee bonus, plus the aforementioned Consummate Weaponmaster, Deathly Perfectionist and Famed Savagery. Which seems nice . . . until you remember that Archons only have access to a single melee relic.

The main problem for me is that you kind of have to use the Archon's relic and/or warlord slots to buff his melee, otherwise he has nothing at all to fall back on, which really restricts his useful builds.

I've always liked the idea of ranged (or semi-ranged) Archon builds but neither of the relic guns on offer seem particularly impressive. Soul Seeker is laughably bad, struggling to kill a Platoon Commander even with Hatred Eternal. And with just a 12" range, if you're firing Parasite's Kiss then you might as well have just gone with a melee build anyway.

That said, I would be very interested to hear from anyone running pistols on their Archons - has either actually worked for you?


Lastly, I'll of course add my support to those asking for more options for the Archon. Honestly, though, I'd really like to see him get a different role to start with. As mentioned above, DE has 3 generic HQs and all of them are melee. The Succubus obviously can't change, and since the Haemonculus is supporting predominantly melee units it makes little sense for him to change either (though I'd like to see his options return). Hence, it would seem to make the most sense for the Archon to move away from being yet another melee beater and instead take on a different role - perhaps with a more support or strategic focus.

What do you mean with passable at best? My Archon is Poisoned Tongue with Agonizer and Blastpistol.
With Consumate Weaponsmaster that makes 5 attacks, hitting on 2+, wounding on 3+, with flat 2D.
And wounding he does. Even Monsters and Battlesuits. Or Tanks with Stratagem.
Together with the Soulheim relic that makes one sturdy Character, that can handle himself very well.

Of course, the Succubus fights better and the Haemi buffs better, but the Archon is not just a tax to pay.
He has the 'good at all, excells at none' ability. Btw, whipping a tank to shreds really works.
Oh, and the Blastpistol with D6+1 damage is pretty nice. But with 6" range, it counts as Meleeattack in the shooting phase.

Hmm, I kinda have a Deja Vu. Didnt you write the exact same words elsewhere?

I feel like when they gave the archon his aura they gave him the standard one for leaders instead of looking at what would be useful for the army. I am just grateful they added incubi to it's list.

Zenotaph wrote:

What do you mean with passable at best? My Archon is Poisoned Tongue with Agonizer and Blastpistol.
With Consumate Weaponsmaster that makes 5 attacks, hitting on 2+, wounding on 3+, with flat 2D.

I'm not sure you're making the point you seem to think you're making.  

You realise that profile is the sort of thing other factions can get with standard gear, right?

As an example, a Sisters of Battle Canoness with Blessed Blade is striking at S5 AP-3 D2.

You can argue that wounding non-vehicles on 3s is better but bear in mind that you've needed to use a Kabal bonus *and* your warlord trait and you're still just barely better than a bog-standard Canoness with no relics, warlord traits, or other army abilities.

This is what I'm getting at - an HQ with basically no function outside of melee should not need to take relics or warlord traits just to get a melee weapon that's actually worth a damn. If the Archon could get even the 8th edition version of the Huskblade (which was already by far one of the weakest melee weapons available), I'd be satisfied. But now he needs to take a Warlord trait just to get back to where he was in 8th (a design philosophy that, as evidenced above, clearly hasn't been applied elsewhere).

Zenotaph wrote:

He has the 'good at all, excells at none' ability.

By what possible measure is he "good at all"?

Every single one of his standard melee weapons is abysmal (as you've just demonstrated, you need a warlord trait and army ability just to get him roughly on par with what other HQs can accomplish with basic wargear).

His shooting is - at best - no better than that of the Succubus. His base pistol is laughably bad and his alternative has such a short range you basically have to shove it up your opponent's nose before you can fire. And are we even going to countenance his support ability? Which only works on a few units to begin with and not at all if he or the units in question are inside transports, which is exactly where they want to be.

Sorry but sucking at every conceivable role is not the same as being a jack-of-all-trades.  

Zenotaph wrote:

Oh, and the Blastpistol with D6+1 damage is pretty nice. But with 6" range, it counts as Meleeattack in the shooting phase.

I agree with you here; I, too, consider the Blast Pistol an extra melee attack (albeit one that doesn't benefit from most of his melee bonuses).

Though that makes it even more curious that you consider the Archon a "good at all, excels at none" unit. Because so far his abilities seem to consist of "melee" and "more melee".

Zenotaph wrote:

Of course, the Succubus fights better

Serious question - why? Why should the Succubus fight better than the Archon?

- The Succubus doesn't cost any more points than the Archon. In fact, the Archon is actually the more expensive of the two.

- The Archon doesn't have better ranged ability than the Succubus because they have the same BS and the same pistols.

- You can argue that the Succubus is tailored for melee, yet when you look at the Archon's Master rule, you see that he's also tailored for melee.

- Indeed, melee is all the Archon has. It's the only thing he can be outfitted for (with relics/warlord traits). So why should he be arbitrarily worse at it than the Succubus?

If you want to argue fluff, sure. But in that case (as I said before), why can't the Archon have a different role? Why is he stuck as a melee unit when his only function is to be shown up at it by the Succubus? Why can't he get some better ranged options or a support ability that's actually functional for more than 1 unit?

Zenotaph wrote:

Hmm, I kinda have a Deja Vu. Didnt you write the exact same words elsewhere?

Well, I started my post with "I've said this before..." so I'd say the odds are good.

My point is: The Archon does something. He isnt useless. He unlocks the RSR, he can buff and he can fight.
OK, maybe not as good as others, but he does.

I see your point and your arguments are valid, but I think, you see this a bit too extreme.

for my part, i agree that the Archon should be more in a ranged position.
As Soulless said, i like my Archon inside a transport (i don't care his aura) but i want him to be able to shoot something at least.......for now he is more like a tax to pay.

As for the melee version, everytime i build one i'm like: ok, if my game goes fine, he won't do anything, but he will start to do some stuffs only if my gameplan goes wrong, that means if the transport in which he is has been destroyed. (i know this will happen more often than rarely, but still....)

I already tried the poison tongue with the Soul seeker relic, and seriously i had some fun with it, hunting down the HQs of my opponent from inside my transport, but undeniably would need a range of 24'' at least or stay at 18'' but ignore line of sight.
And personally, i love it when the ''godfather'' of my army don't get his hands dirty......thus why the range option should be something to increase a little for them, if only for the flavor.

This is by no mean a bad unit, it's just that i find that every other HQ from our book can do some better job. The Succubus can really become a killing queen without that much investment and the Haemonculus has one of the best aura we can find in our book, +1T that i find amazing personally.

For my part, this is pretty simple:

Kabal = shooty options
Cult = melee option
Coven = sturdy option

so the HQ for Cult and Coven fits perfectly in their specific role, but the Archon.......he's like alone in the fray, butchering the enemies until he realize: damn......where are my meat shields? where are the guys who are supposed to protect me? ha yes! they are BEHIND me, doing their job i gotta say, which is shooting people to death!

We are forgetting the main reason to take the Archon: Trueborn.

With DT Liquifiers dead, we dont have many options for reliable firepower. Ravagers/Reapers are paper thin, Scourges cant move and shoot without penalty, and regular Warriors hate -1 to hit AND things with 4++ save.

I really wish we had another "good" shooting unit. Almost worth running two Master Archons just for the second Trueborn.

Note: you can throw a Master Archon into a Coven/Cult detatchment to unlock a second Trueborn. They just wont get an Obsession (but the Coven/Cult would still get theirs)

@fisheyes totally agree that Trueborn are SO good! but again.......shooty units with a melee HQ.....this feel so counterintuitive

@Zenotaph btw, my next game i will have an Archon inspired by your build we already talked last day!
I will try the Soulhelm and the Venom Blade + Consumate Weaponmaster to see what it can do!
(i'm still hesitating between Power Sword or Venom Blade....)

Venomblade? Why would you use that? You dont get the PT bonus for woundrolls and it has only AP-1.

Zenotaph wrote:

My point is: The Archon does something. He isnt useless. He unlocks the RSR, he can buff and he can fight.

I wasn't trying to say he did nothing, just that his role is very odd (melee HQ for the shooting subfaction) and that I really wish his basic wargear wasn't so sub-par.

Tbh, I might be less hard on the Archon if he wasn't my only option for Kabal besides Drazhar (another melee HQ).

Zenotaph wrote:

Venomblade? Why would you use that? You dont get the PT bonus for woundrolls and it has only AP-1.

Aside, why doesn't Poison Tongue buff Venom Blades (and other Poison 2+ weapons)?

It seems really weird that weapons you'd think would be fluffy get no benefit whatsoever. You'd think they could get an extra pip of AP or maybe auto-wound against non-vehicles. Just something.

Also means Lhamaeans - the poison-loving Assassins - get zero benefit from being in Poison Tongue.

Kalmah wrote:

for my part, i agree that the Archon should be more in a ranged position.
As Soulless said, i like my Archon inside a transport (i don't care his aura) but i want him to be able to shoot something at least.

Yeah, this is one of the reasons why I really miss the Blaster. Even if it wasn't super-efficient to have a ~70pt model just firing a single Blaster shot at BS2+, it at least meant he could contribute to the battle without being in melee.

Kalmah wrote:

I already tried the poison tongue with the Soul seeker relic, and seriously i had some fun with it, hunting down the HQs of my opponent from inside my transport, but undeniably would need a range of 24'' at least or stay at 18'' but ignore line of sight.
And personally, i love it when the ''godfather'' of my army don't get his hands dirty......thus why the range option should be something to increase a little for them, if only for the flavor.

Agreed about Archons not getting their hands dirty (at the very least, I'd prefer for melee not to be their primary option).

And yeah, I really hate that they removed the 'ignore line of sight' rule from the Soul Seeker in 9th. It was already a really weak weapon that barely anyone took. No idea why it needed a nerf.

I think if you gave it back ignore line of sight and gave it an extra shot it might start to look a little more promising.

Incidentally, have you tried Parasite's Kiss at all? The statline seems better than that of the Soul Seeker but I wondered if it would bring you so close to the enemy that you'd just end up in melee.


In any case, I'd really like to see Archons get a decent pistol as a standard option (so that you're not limited to a single relic in a single subfaction if you want a ranged build). Doesn't have to be incredible but something along the lines of a Master Crafted Boltgun would be nice (so that your HQ isn't stuck firing 1 AP0 D1 shot ).

I suppose an alternative would be to make him a pseudo-psyker, with a ranged attack that does mortal wounds and/or applies a debuff. I suggest this because you could flavour it as an ability - with him stealing the enemy's souls or something - so that it wouldn't necessarily need to be represented on the model (thus avoiding the ever-tedious no-model, no rules policy).

fisheyes wrote:

We are forgetting the main reason to take the Archon: Trueborn.

...

I really wish we had another "good" shooting unit. Almost worth running two Master Archons just for the second Trueborn.

Am I to take it then that you don't think running 2 Master Archons to get 2 Trueborn units is worth it?

I mean the original husk blade straight up killed you if it wounded you, now its damage 2. Honestly it's kinda trash especially compared to weapons in other list that it used to be straight up better than.

toldavf wrote:

I mean the original husk blade straight up killed you if it wounded you, now its damage 2. Honestly it's kinda trash especially compared to weapons in other list that it used to be straight up better than.

I think it's fair to say that the risk of a S3 weapon is no longer balanced by the reward.


Honestly, though, I think what we're really missing is weapons that fulfil meaningful niches.

in 5th, for example:
- You had the Venom Blade as a very cheap option (and in an edition where toughness was a lot more impactful). Not amazing but IIRC was 1/4 the cost of the Agoniser and about 1/6 of the cost of a Huskblade.
- You had the Agoniser as an all-rounder weapon. Ignores armour saves and wounds non-vehicles on a 4+.
- You had the Huskblade as an anti-Character and anti-monster weapon. Ignored saves and a single wound would insta-kill any target. It also synergised very well with the Soul Trap. However, it was by far the most expensive melee weapon and you were taking a significant risk with a S3 character (if an enemy was T6 you wouldn't even be able to scratch them).
(This isn't by any means an exhaustive list. You also had stuff like the Djin Blade, which could be taken in addition to other weapons - so I'm pretty sure you could make a 'gunslinger' Archon with 2 pistols and then take that to still have a melee weapon.)


Now, though, we've got 4 options that basically all do the same thing. They're all middling weapons with no standout stats or abilities (it's the equivalent of having a choice of weapons in AoS where one hits on a 4+ and wounds on a 3+, and the alternative weapon that hits on a 3+ and wounds on a 4+).

I'd like to see them differentiated a little more. Maybe even give one or two of them special rules beyond Poison X+.

I run my Archon with Ancient Evil and the Soulhelm with just a Venom Blade. He's less of a combat character and more of a combat capable support character. The combination of -1 to hit and 5+ FNP means I find myself using his armor (or native 6++) instead of relying on the Shadowfield to keep him alive. If he dies, no big deal, but he stays alive longer which means he's lending his auras and making opponents strike last more. We're good on melee units, and I don't need to kit out my Archon to be yet another melee character.

I'm moving more towards Realspace Raiders and I want to try a list with 2 units of shredder scourges and a unit of haywire scourges. In this build, I'd give him the Writ of the Living Muse and run him in the middle of all 3 squads. Re-rolling 1s to hit and wound is more valuable the more shots you roll. Seems like the best way to maximize his aura.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

toldavf wrote:

I mean the original husk blade straight up killed you if it wounded you, now its damage 2. Honestly it's kinda trash especially compared to weapons in other list that it used to be straight up better than.

I think it's fair to say that the risk of a S3 weapon is no longer balanced by the reward.


Honestly, though, I think what we're really missing is weapons that fulfil meaningful niches.

in 5th, for example:
- You had the Venom Blade as a very cheap option (and in an edition where toughness was a lot more impactful). Not amazing but IIRC was 1/4 the cost of the Agoniser and about 1/6 of the cost of a Huskblade.
- You had the Agoniser as an all-rounder weapon. Ignores armour saves and wounds non-vehicles on a 4+.
- You had the Huskblade as an anti-Character and anti-monster weapon. Ignored saves and a single wound would insta-kill any target. It also synergised very well with the Soul Trap. However, it was by far the most expensive melee weapon and you were taking a significant risk with a S3 character (if an enemy was T6 you wouldn't even be able to scratch them).
(This isn't by any means an exhaustive list. You also had stuff like the Djin Blade, which could be taken in addition to other weapons - so I'm pretty sure you could make a 'gunslinger' Archon with 2 pistols and then take that to still have a melee weapon.)


Now, though, we've got 4 options that basically all do the same thing. They're all middling weapons with no standout stats or abilities (it's the equivalent of having a choice of weapons in AoS where one hits on a 4+ and wounds on a 3+, and the alternative weapon that hits on a 3+ and wounds on a 4+).

I'd like to see them differentiated a little more. Maybe even give one or two of them special rules beyond Poison X+.

I mean our weapons share the quality level with those of the rank and file. Where are the artificer made weapons for the archon?

Zenotaph wrote:

Venomblade? Why would you use that? You dont get the PT bonus for woundrolls and it has only AP-1.

ho simply because its poison 2+ (so don't care about DT other than the combat attrition).
the thing is that its a weapon that hit on 2+, wound on 2+.
The power sword and Huskblade are +1S and user respectively.......so with those stats, i don't think you will even try to attack a vehicle, so, knowing that, i think the venom blade is better against infantry and the -1AP is usually enough against infantry again.........so yes, i truly believe the venom blade is an excellent choice

I STILL wish the Archon could get Wings/Skyboard/Jetbike so he could whiz around the battlefield or at the least Nominate 1 Transport to be his "Command Raider/Venom/Tantalus" that could amplify his Aura whilst he is on board, didn't the tantalus have something like this before?
Really, I'd love him to be able to change his aura at the start of each turn between 3 or so options to reflect how he's orchestrating the raid but I think that it would be hard to make 3 options that are useful and not OP.

Imagine, an Archon whizzing around the battlefield to order different units around from his comfy chair in his private Raider.

Kalmah wrote:

Zenotaph wrote:

Venomblade? Why would you use that? You dont get the PT bonus for woundrolls and it has only AP-1.

ho simply because its poison 2+ (so don't care about DT other than the combat attrition).
the thing is that its a weapon that hit on 2+, wound on 2+.
The power sword and Huskblade are +1S and user respectively.......so with those stats, i don't think you will even try to attack a vehicle, so, knowing that, i think the venom blade is better against infantry and the -1AP is usually enough against infantry again.........so yes, i truly believe the venom blade is an excellent choice

Well, I use an Agonizer. I hit on 2+, wound on 3+ and have AP-3. With Consumate Weaponsmaster flat 2D.
Simply put, I trade a +1 to wound for -2 AP.

Zenotaph wrote:

Kalmah wrote:

Zenotaph wrote:

Venomblade? Why would you use that? You dont get the PT bonus for woundrolls and it has only AP-1.

ho simply because its poison 2+ (so don't care about DT other than the combat attrition).
the thing is that its a weapon that hit on 2+, wound on 2+.
The power sword and Huskblade are +1S and user respectively.......so with those stats, i don't think you will even try to attack a vehicle, so, knowing that, i think the venom blade is better against infantry and the -1AP is usually enough against infantry again.........so yes, i truly believe the venom blade is an excellent choice

Well, I use an Agonizer. I hit on 2+, wound on 3+ and have AP-3. With Consumate Weaponsmaster flat 2D.
Simply put, I trade a +1 to wound for -2 AP.

agreed, but you HAVE to play it in a PT detachment, while on my side i play it in an Obsidian Rose detachment (the reroll WR for the Dark Lance is just too good). If i was to play it in a PT detachment, we would not have this conversation, i would go Agoniser all the way! (and with the Potent Metalotoxin stratagem you can indeed go face to face with vehicles with this build).
So to put it simply: its all about the context in which you play it (and some will say will depend on what you will face too)

Gizamaluke wrote:

I STILL wish the Archon could get Wings/Skyboard/Jetbike so he could whiz around the battlefield

Yes please.

Gizamaluke wrote:

Really, I'd love him to be able to change his aura at the start of each turn between 3 or so options to reflect how he's orchestrating the raid but I think that it would be hard to make 3 options that are useful and not OP.

Even if he couldn't change them mid-game, it would be great if he had some alternate aura abilities, similar to how Harlequins can swap out their base auras for alternatives.

Maybe if we got a Kabalite expansion then some of the issues with at least one Kabal could be fixed, but having just gotten a cult one any new stuff is a long way off.

Kalmah wrote:

@fisheyes totally agree that Trueborn are SO good! but again.......shooty units with a melee HQ.....this feel so counterintuitive

I've actually been having a lot of fun lately with a 3 trueborn list. 30 trueborn in boats with lances/blasters, 3 archons, 27 incubi plus drazhar, everyone either in raiders or a tantalus.