Grotesques?

I think Grots and Incubi are both great but in my lists they fulfill different roles.  Incubi are my fire and forget missile to kill something and then die.  Even at their new points they’re still probably trading up against most things you would want to throw them at.  I think Grots, while they can smash things real good, are more valuable for board control and tying things up while being annoying to kill by most things in a quick and efficient manner (speaking about AoF here).  In my heavy Coven lists, Grots are the second wave that complement the Talos and give my opponent headaches on turn 3 on  when they’re rampaging around once the Talos and Incubi have hopefully done the initial damage.

Doing some theory hammer around a Coven centric list, and I keep coming back to PoF over AotF.

PoF just does a bit of everything.

Durability: mini-transhuman (very useful in combat with a lot of S7 and +1 to wound), regen a wound every turn

Damage Output: Reroll Strat

Tech: Vex Mask to Fight Last and Ignore Overwatch, WLT to jump between being extra Durable or Punchy.

Plus it synergizes with the Wracks you already need to take.

IDK if PoF is better than AotF, but we shouldent forget about PoF.

I think it may be somewhat meta dependent.  I see a lot of strength 8 in my meta so haven’t found PoF to be quite as useful.  If it were a true Transhuman then I would say it’s hands down better than AotF but the strength 7 break point really limits it’s utility on Talos and even Grots if they’re in Haemonculous aura as it really only works against strength 7 weapons at that point.  But you do make a good point about it’s usefulness against + 1 to wound.  But like I said YMMV, as both of them are good.  Hordes of PoF Wracks is something I’m considering so once I get some games in with that I’ll have a more informed opinion on how they compare to one another.

The list I'm working on (which is going to take a while because I basically had a break last year and quit when 9th dropped, so I'm now figuring out all of the 9th edition changes) has one Realspace Raid with only a Haemy and some Wracks or Haemoxytes (haven't decided yet).
Then I'll add a Coven Spearhead with my Talos, Grotesques, Urien and maybe Drazhar.
This way I can pick a separate coven for my Wracks, and another for the real badasses.
So far I'm thinking the Wracks get Master Torturers for free reroll wounds, and Obsessive Collectors to respawn fallen Wrecks.
And I'm thinking PoF for the Talos and Grotesques, accompanied by Urien. That way they heal both from the obsession AND from Urien, and get increased Toughness and Strength. That'll be pretty hard to kill I guess...
I'm looking forward to see how the coven will just refuse to die while dealing out the hurt.

I should probably add that the people I play with have no Space Marines. It's mostly Tyranids, Chaos Deamons, and some others.

I tried Obsessive Collectors, but I found it too difficult to pull off. Wracks have decent CC output, but not really "unit wiping" CC output.

However, PoF Wracks have the added ability that they dont require a Haemi at all. You can slot in Draz and save the (reduced) cost.

I know that it may seem like there is a lot of S8 kicking around, but that is mostly in the shooting phase. Grots are Infantry, so they can kool-aid-man thru walls and charge into stuff with their advance+charge. Once they reach combat, most CC weapons are S6 and S7, along with +1 to wound. Thats where PoF really shines, IMO.

fisheyes wrote:

I tried Obsessive Collectors, but I found it too difficult to pull off. Wracks have decent CC output, but not really "unit wiping" CC output.

However, PoF Wracks have the added ability that they dont require a Haemi at all. You can slot in Draz and save the (reduced) cost.

I know that it may seem like there is a lot of S8 kicking around, but that is mostly in the shooting phase. Grots are Infantry, so they can kool-aid-man thru walls and charge into stuff with their advance+charge. Once they reach combat, most CC weapons are S6 and S7, along with +1 to wound. Thats where PoF really shines, IMO.

I'll keep it in mind. Thanks. Like I said, I'm still figuring out 9th edition rules. (My heart did make a weird jump when I read that transport capacity is FINALLY fixed)
Anyway, I was kind of afraid that Obsessive Collectors might be hard to pull off, but I really want to try Master Torturers. Rerolling wounds for free sounds awesome. Maybe I should try MT in combination with something else. Maybe Hungry For Flesh, or Splinterblades?
Either way, it's a lot less interesting on Grotesques or Talos, which is why I want those from a different Coven/detachment.

I was running custom Covens for a while (Wrack heavy, not Grot). The best combo I found was Master Torturers and Splinterblades. Made for some funny moments with the ECW, where you attack 6 times and get 7 hits XD. Was able to pull down the unkillable Demon Chicken (Lord of Change with the 3++, regenerating wounds, and a few other abilities I forget).

Grots and Talos would also punch harder with this Custom Coven, fwiw

Interesting Tabletop Tactics batrep out today featuring our very own Sky Serpent versus Lawrence’s GK which I think illustrates why the competitive DE will most likely shift towards Covens.  The consensus seems to be that GK are probably the top dogs now.  To have a puncher’s chance against the 3-5 Dreadknight archetype, Coven toughness, FNP, and damage reduction look to be our best bet.  At least until (hopefully) GW addresses how criminally undercosted NDKs and Intercepors are in the next balance update.

I can't be convinced that PoF competes with AotF, at least for defensive stats. PoF will only reduce damage from S6/7 weapons by 1/4, while AotF reduces damage from all D2 weapons by 1/2 and D3 weapons by 1/3. When you look at most S6/7 weapons they do more than 1 damage anyway.

I think PoF is an option with Urien and his +1S if you were interested in a middle ground between the defensive AotF and the offensive custom coven traits.

Oaka wrote:

I can't be convinced that PoF competes with AotF, at least for defensive stats.  PoF will only reduce damage from S6/7 weapons by 1/4, while AotF reduces damage from all D2 weapons by 1/2 and D3 weapons by 1/3.  When you look at most S6/7 weapons they do more than 1 damage anyway.

Are you thinking in terms of killing the Dreadknights or just surviving them?

I ask because (buffs/stratagems notwithstanding) you're looking at 23-24 Grotesques (800+pts) required to kill a single Dreadknight.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

For those running Grotesques, are you all footslogging them or is anyone running them in Raiders?

Depends. Right now I like 2 setups for them:

1) The obvious AotF footsloggijg blobs. 2x5 or 3x5 of them that simply run in the middle of the board.
AotF is the way that will get on the meta imho. After the nerfs, GK are the new public enemy and they spam 2damages and mws. We can spam -1 damages and fnp5+. Seems pretty straightfoward to me;

2) Using Coven of the Twelves in embarked units of 3. But this is a consequential tought. Units of 5 Wracks w/ whip+2liquefiers are a cheap pretty way to get rid of every Troops objective units, they are OS Troops who can do RoD actions AND shoot. In melee they do 14 attacks poisoned 4+ ap-2(-3) and -3(-4). Now that Wyches costs 12 points, these seems to me an interesting alternative.
In the list you can Throw 10 Haemoxities fully equiped (don't forget Metallotoxyn).
And a this point, in a single Raider you can fit 5wracks+3Grots. For 105 points the are different Incubi, ap-3(-4) damage2 strenght 5, with no extra damage but with full reroll to wounds at 1CPs. More wounds, more T, fnp, from 80 to 105 it's a good value overall. And in fact you can bring both (:
The gauntlet gains ap-1 too, a little bit of a push.



I don't like 5 Grots in a boat because every 1 will cost you an entire Grot. So 5+3 seems good to me.

Cerve wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

For those running Grotesques, are you all footslogging them or is anyone running them in Raiders?

Depends. Right now I like 2 setups for them:

1) The obvious AotF footsloggijg blobs. 2x5 or 3x5 of them that simply run in the middle of the board.
AotF is the way that will get on the meta imho. After the nerfs, GK are the new public enemy and they spam 2damages and mws. We can spam -1 damages and fnp5+. Seems pretty straightfoward to me;

2) Using Coven of the Twelves in embarked units of 3. But this is a consequential tought. Units of 5 Wracks w/ whip+2liquefiers are a cheap pretty way to get rid of every Troops objective units, they are OS Troops who can do RoD actions AND shoot. In melee they do 14 attacks poisoned 4+ ap-2(-3) and -3(-4). Now that Wyches costs 12 points, these seems to me an interesting alternative.
In the list you can Throw 10 Haemoxities fully equiped (don't forget Metallotoxyn).
And a this point, in a single Raider you can fit 5wracks+3Grots. For 105 points the are different Incubi, ap-3(-4) damage2 strenght 5, with no extra damage but with full reroll to wounds at 1CPs. More wounds, more T, fnp, from 80 to 105 it's a good value overall. And in fact you can bring both (:
The gauntlet gains ap-1 too, a little bit of a push.



I don't like 5 Grots in a boat because every 1 will cost you an entire Grot. So 5+3 seems good to me.

Minor point but isn't it 2CP to reroll wounds with Grots?

Regardless, I appreciate the input. Not sure I have enough grot models for a footslogging list but I might give the Raider squads a go sometime.

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Cerve wrote:

Soulless Samurai wrote:

For those running Grotesques, are you all footslogging them or is anyone running them in Raiders?

Depends. Right now I like 2 setups for them:

1) The obvious AotF footsloggijg blobs. 2x5 or 3x5 of them that simply run in the middle of the board.
AotF is the way that will get on the meta imho. After the nerfs, GK are the new public enemy and they spam 2damages and mws. We can spam -1 damages and fnp5+. Seems pretty straightfoward to me;

2) Using Coven of the Twelves in embarked units of 3. But this is a consequential tought. Units of 5 Wracks w/ whip+2liquefiers are a cheap pretty way to get rid of every Troops objective units, they are OS Troops who can do RoD actions AND shoot. In melee they do 14 attacks poisoned 4+ ap-2(-3) and -3(-4). Now that Wyches costs 12 points, these seems to me an interesting alternative.
In the list you can Throw 10 Haemoxities fully equiped (don't forget Metallotoxyn).
And a this point, in a single Raider you can fit 5wracks+3Grots. For 105 points the are different Incubi, ap-3(-4) damage2 strenght 5, with no extra damage but with full reroll to wounds at 1CPs. More wounds, more T, fnp, from 80 to 105 it's a good value overall. And in fact you can bring both (:
The gauntlet gains ap-1 too, a little bit of a push.



I don't like 5 Grots in a boat because every 1 will cost you an entire Grot. So 5+3 seems good to me.

Minor point but isn't it 2CP to reroll wounds with Grots?

Regardless, I appreciate the input. Not sure I have enough grot models for a footslogging list but I might give the Raider squads a go sometime.

Correct, it's 2 CP because they're Grots. My bad

Im loving how much you guys are loving the humble Grot in here.

Would love to hear some stories of Grots on the tabletop. Anyone get to field them last weekend?

fisheyes wrote:

Im loving how much you guys are loving the humble Grot in here.

Would love to hear some stories of Grots on the tabletop. Anyone get to field them last weekend?

I played a few games this weekend where I took two units of them (one three man, one four man). They're great and I think they're far too cheap at their current points value; they hit slightly less hard than Incubi point-for-point, but they're hugely more durable and have wound rerolls on demand with Torturer's Craft. Stand out moments from my games this weekend include them wiping out a 9 man unit of bikers in a single turn, weathering the storm from a charging unit of Scarab Occult Terminators before Draz could murder them in response, and mulching a Dreadnought to death.

3 x 5 is almost certainly what I want my competitive list to contain now. That's a huge amount of meat in a list for only about 500 points.

Can I assume you were running them as AotF?

Where on the board were you playing them? Back in your table half, out of view of returning firepower, or somewhere upfield where they were brawling like pit-fighters?

TY for the response!

Also super curious about this @Burnage. What does the rest of your list look like? Are you running kabal and cult as well? What units?

duckduckgoose wrote:

Also super curious about this @Burnage. What does the rest of your list look like? Are you running kabal and cult as well? What units?

@duckduckgoose @fisheyes

I ran them as Artists of Flesh and played them very aggressively - just charged them up the board onto central objectives, basically.

My list for this weekend was Cult/Coven; Warlord Draz, a Precision/Tripwhip Succubus, three Raiders with five Incubi and five Wyches each, two units of five Mandrakes, a Twisted Animator Haemonculus, ten Haemoxytes, the Grotesques and four Talos with Heat Lances, Ichor Injectors and Talos Gauntlets.

It felt absolutely disgusting in almost every game I played, and the weak points definitely seemed to be the Wyches.

That is a super interesting list. VERY aggressive sounding. I may just have to pick up some grots and a couple more talos and try something similar out

Burnage wrote:

duckduckgoose wrote:

Also super curious about this @Burnage. What does the rest of your list look like? Are you running kabal and cult as well? What units?

@duckduckgoose @fisheyes

I ran them as Artists of Flesh and played them very aggressively - just charged them up the board onto central objectives, basically.

My list for this weekend was Cult/Coven; Warlord Draz, a Precision/Tripwhip Succubus, three Raiders with five Incubi and five Wyches each, two units of five Mandrakes, a Twisted Animator Haemonculus, ten Haemoxytes, the Grotesques and four Talos with Heat Lances, Ichor Injectors and Talos Gauntlets.

It felt absolutely disgusting in almost every game I played, and the weak points definitely seemed to be the Wyches.

Mind if I asked why the Wyches felt like the weak points? Did they just not seem to be delivering value, compared with the other stuff?

Also, are you considering trading them out or is there nothing else that can really replace them?

Soulless Samurai wrote:

Burnage wrote:

duckduckgoose wrote:

Also super curious about this @Burnage. What does the rest of your list look like? Are you running kabal and cult as well? What units?

@duckduckgoose @fisheyes

I ran them as Artists of Flesh and played them very aggressively - just charged them up the board onto central objectives, basically.

My list for this weekend was Cult/Coven; Warlord Draz, a Precision/Tripwhip Succubus, three Raiders with five Incubi and five Wyches each, two units of five Mandrakes, a Twisted Animator Haemonculus, ten Haemoxytes, the Grotesques and four Talos with Heat Lances, Ichor Injectors and Talos Gauntlets.

It felt absolutely disgusting in almost every game I played, and the weak points definitely seemed to be the Wyches.

Mind if I asked why the Wyches felt like the weak points? Did they just not seem to be delivering value, compared with the other stuff?

Also, are you considering trading them out or is there nothing else that can really replace them?

I think partly it was probably due to the match-ups I was facing this weekend - Ork bikers and MEQ aren't really a situation where their damage shines brightly, and then they're just left feeling very fragile when they're outside of a transport or melee.

Wracks seem like a similar enough replacement on paper that I want to experiment with subbing more of them in; you're exchanging some damage for far greater durability and less reliance on transports (which potentially frees up even more points). I'll miss the speed and Strife strats but the ability to not get wiped off the board immediately by casual shooting is hugely valuable.

Honestly I'm feeling like a pure Covens list is completely viable for us and possibly even one of our strongest builds now.

Ive been rocking Wracks for a while now, but I find that they really want Profits of Flesh to really shine (transhuman is awesome on an 8 point model).

As you say, they have a similar defensive profile on paper. But in my experience they are still apples and oranges (anti infantry target the Wracks, anti tank target the Grots). I hope to start experimenting with the Grots soon, but I feel that a 5 man wrack squad is better at occupying space than the Grots. Grots are 1000x better at actually punching things, outside of a few units like Demons.

TY @Burnage for sharing your Grot experience!

Backslide wrote:

fisheyes wrote:

I think the proper comparison is Grots vs Incubi

Grots = 105 pts, for 15, S5 D2 attacks
Incubi = 90 pts, for 16, S5 D2 attacks

No question its a good day to be a Coven player. Time to pull out the old Grotesquery!

ws2 on the incubi all the time though... but one does absorb a lot more damage

Most of it, it's the +1 to wound from Drazhar (and exploding 6s to wound) that makes them a better hittiers.

Otherwise, you get +1 to hit on T2 thanks to Animus Vitae (which is pretty good now if you run heavy coven lists), and rerolling to wound for 2 CPs.



Usually I just play both.

Dont want to create another thread, but it would be nice to collect ideas of how to convert Grots.