Recent Coven Nerf

Hi I'm wondering how everyone is viewing and adapting to the recent Coven Nerf?
Are AoF still viable or have your Talos/Cronos been shelved and replaced by Wracks and Grots?

Or has a change of Coven become a necessity?

Can't talk for the more competitive scene (I don't do tournaments or anything) but here's my take for now :

AoF was so vastly superior to anything (except DT for very specific units), that it wasn't even a choice. The new AoF is not without use, -1 Dmg on S7 and below is still usefull for medium strenght D3 or DD3 weapons, and there is still a lot of those. It is however useless against dedicated anti-tank weaponry. I think taloses are now best taken in lists alongside raiders/ravagers, and probably in units of 1. Basically as flying distraction carnifexes, to scare your opponent into attacking them instead of your transports, and if they don't, the flying boys still have enough tools to punish them. And since they don't benefit from auras anymore, you're very much encouraged to send them on their own.

If you're looking for an anvil to your wych cult/kabal/incubi hammer, I think AoF Grots is where it's at. Obviously not as good as before, but still a very akward target for anything (not enough armor/wounds/points to justify the bigger guns, too resilient for a lot of medium/small guns, 2 units of 3 AoF grots supported by an haemunculus pushing the center of the table seem very annoying to remove and ignore, for a reasonable price)

What I like with the nerf is that PoF, CoT, and some of the other custom covens feel like real options now, instead of downgrades : PoF for wrack spam, they're probably the tankiest wracks now, CoT for killy coven (AP-3 grots in raiders anyone ?) and the only killy haemunculus build in the dex, etc.

I do think, however, that pure coven lists aren't the way to go anymore, taloses aren't the immovable juggernaults they used to be

I'm all right with the nerf to AoF since i'm a player who love to switch obsessions from game to game, so as some as stated, the fact that AoF was sitting alone at the top, now you're more encouraged to be more diverse.

However the lost of Core keyword on Talos and Chronos is a bummer but one thing, as highlighted by Patayou, now you can send your Talos on their own without worrying to have an Haemonculus running behind them..........and now no more hard decision like: do i send my Haemy with my Talos or my Grots? So all in all, it's not a buff at all, but this nerf is pretty easy to swallow (especially when not playing competitive).

Coven still plays a crucial role in our codex (my love for our Codex is still really high even after 4 nerfs!! thats a thing )

By removing CORE, I think GW (again) used a hammer to fix a problem that only needed a scalpel. The problem was with AoF, not Talos. After all, competitive lists weren't using Talos in any other coven. So, the AoF nerf should have been sufficient (and *maybe* a return to the old point values for Talos).

sekac wrote:

krayd wrote:

By removing CORE,  I think GW (again) used a hammer to fix a problem that only needed a scalpel. The problem was with AoF, not Talos. After all, competitive lists weren't using Talos in any other coven. So, the AoF nerf should have been sufficient (and *maybe* a return to the old point values for Talos).

I don’t even agree that Artist of Flesh was a problem. It was competitive, sure, but not meta altering. It was competitive because it was our reaction to an evolving meta. The points increases to Raiders and wyches and incubi didn't push those things out of the meta. Sure we pack a unit or two less, but it was still good. It got pushed out of the meta because newer books can burn 10 wound vehicles with 5++ and 1 wound infantry with 6++ to the ground in no time. With GK hitting very hard in 3 phases and having incredible reach and fire angles, we just got tabled too fast trying to play the MSU Raiders. 


Leaning into coven for the 5+++ against all the mortal wounds out there and -1 damage against all the damage 2 was our way of staying competitive. I think our chance at top tables is more or less gone with this latest nerf.


I think our best list is probably spamming wracks, grotesques, and hellions and trying to run up the score before we're tabled.

I completely disagree with all of this.

No way, AoF were completely broken and nonsense, and yes, we WERE metadefining. Siegler is Siegler, that's for sure, but he just won a GT with AoF+DT with no more than 3-4 learning matches for how simple and stupid and broken Thick City was. -1 Damage was in meta because of US, AoF Wracks were completely no sense, and no we didn't let down Raiders and Strife because of GK, we put them down because of how good became Coven units with new points.



The nerfs are all good imho, it's a good balance, nothing is dead (besides, Talos maybe, not Cronos for sure) and AoF still super good.


And if you got tabled I think it's not a problem of the Codex. We still a top tier Codex, we just need more skills for winning games.
As Drukhari should ever been.

Cerve wrote:

The nerfs are all good imho, it's a good balance, nothing is dead (besides, Talos maybe, not Cronos for sure) and AoF still super good.

So making the Talos dead is "good balance"?

Again, the problem was obviously AoF. I don't think that we would have gotten the same results with PoF or CoT or any other coven. And, now, not only AoF is nerfed (which I am fine with), but Talos are nerfed when brought into other covens that weren't the source of the issue.

For the record, I'm not entirely convinced that Talos is dead... but they certainly aren't worth taking in large numbers. Mainly I think that it is really silly that haemonculi and cronos can't buff them in most of their usual ways now. Also silly that haemonculus-buffed Grots are now just as tough as a Talos within range of the same haemonculus.

Talos may not be as OP anymore, but I still don't think they're bad.
Yes, they're less hard to kill, but they're still scary. Our opponents are still going to be distracted by them. I'm going PoF with them now, and they'll still be tough to kill, just slightly less.
Also, my Haemonculus is now free to join my Grotesques instead, so they'll get the extra Toughness.
Honestly I'm really only sad they won't get +1S from Urien now in PoF. But again, now the Grotesques will.
And in the worst case scenario, and they do turn out to be bad now, then they'll free up points to bring back my Harlequins as soon as the new Eldar codex allows us to include them again.

I look at stuff like this and it just makes me think that our HQs were designed by a completely different person to whoever designed our other units, whilst our army abilities were designed by a third person and these balance changes by yet another person and none of them ever spoke to one another.

It just seems like an increasing mess wherein the design parameters of one aspect of our book are the opposite of the design parameters in another aspect. So we have HQs that are designed to operate close to a lot of units, yet half of those units now have no synergy with said HQs and so want to move independently of them. This is alongside an HQ leading a faction of ranged units in transports . . . with no ranged weapon and a buff that only works outside of transports.

I mean, I don't know if Talos are actually dead but they do seem incredibly dull now just because there's so little left for them to interact with. I guess you just push them forward. Maybe if you squint really hard you could pretend you're playing Orks instead.

Having them unable to be affected by An Esoteric Kill (a stratagem that explicitly references them), just comes across as insulting.

This makes me seriously wonder about the play testing of these codecies ... and who playtests them cause it seriously feels (at least for our army) that the playtesters dont normally play druhkari which is why the shooty HQ doesnt have synegy at all with how the shooty part of our army works or has any actual ranged weaponry ... it's probably safe to assume that each codex is already written up and play tested before the first new codex is announced... which then means all of these (or most of these) issues should have come up during play testing ... unless it takes place in a vacuum and not against any of the other new codecies, but each codex is aware of the one written before it so it can incorporate stuff to counter what came before but not what comes after ... as for the nerf to talos/cronos I don't think them having CORE was the problem I have to agree that the issues probably could have been fixed by simply changing AoF to "decrease the damage of weapons with str 8 or less by 1 (to a minimum of 1)" as talos were the tanks of coven therefore it makes sense that it takes dedicated antitank to remove them

Soulless Samurai wrote:

I look at stuff like this and it just makes me think that our HQs were designed by a completely different person to whoever designed our other units, whilst our army abilities were designed by a third person and these balance changes by yet another person and none of them ever spoke to one another.

It just seems like an increasing mess wherein the design parameters of one aspect of our book are the opposite of the design parameters in another aspect. So we have HQs that are designed to operate close to a lot of units, yet half of those units now have no synergy with said HQs and so want to move independently of them. This is alongside an HQ leading a faction of ranged units in transports . . . with no ranged weapon and a buff that only works outside of transports.  

I mean, I don't know if Talos are actually dead but they do seem incredibly dull now just because there's so little left for them to interact with. I guess you just push them forward. Maybe if you squint really hard you could pretend you're playing Orks instead.

Having them unable to be affected by An Esoteric Kill (a stratagem that explicitly references them), just comes across as insulting.

I totally agree. Our codex doesn't feel coherent. Having 3 subfactions doesn't help, but that's not even the problem. Archons not wanting to hang around with Kabalites is. Not having an HQ that can keep up with Hellions or Reavers is. And now an Haemonculus can't buff Talos anymore. Half of the worth of our HQ's is their buffs, but they don't want to buff anyone.
Other than that, our only sniper weapon can only be taken by a melee troop unit. And our ranged troops are rather useless because GW seems to push them towards melee as well. Why else would they get a extra melee attack since our last codex?

That's just from the top of my mind, but I'm sure there's more examples.

We can argue as much as we want, one thing for sure will remains: in the next few years, people will still say that 2021 was clearly the year of the Dark Eldar and every data points that way.
So we can't say this is a BAD codex in any way (in regards to power level).

However i agree that we are, a lot of time, non intuitive, with no coherency.
The only game where i truly enjoyed my Archon was in a RSR with the Obessions relic that allows to regain CP when CPs are used.........and the reason is simple: i started the game with him already foot logging, but because of his role i intended for him (sitting next to a Kabal unit holding a back objective and gaining some CPs), i enjoyed his relic and his aura almost every turn and for the first time really felt the Archon being a strategic leader!

Other than that game, usually my Archon is a 75pts (or more) tax and is only there to unlock the Trueborn :/ And that is something that i find is a shame!! You don't even want to use him as a beatstick since now a lot of stuff simply ignores Invul and mortal Wounds are everywhere.

if only auras could affect models INSIDE the same open top transport now that would change things a little.

To add to the list of @Gelmir: we are a transport specialized army but our HQs don't even WANT to be inside a freaking transport since they become absolutely useless! Our HQs are either there for their auras or for their melee prowess, nothing that fits with our transports (except to drop them a little bit further down the map).

to resume: strong codex but no cohesion

I don't think Talos are dead, the Haemonculus still has the ability to regenerate wounds with in Talos/Cronos with fleshcraft or you can take PoF or Obsessive collectors as one of two obsessions which can also regenerate wounds.Its the -1 to damage and the loss of the buff to T in AoF which seem to have caused the pain.Are the AP buff of CoT or Strength bonus in a custom coven not other ways to make them useful?

Kalmah wrote:

To add to the list of @Gelmir: we are a transport specialized army but our HQs don't even WANT to be inside a freaking transport since they become absolutely useless! Our HQs are either there for their auras or for their melee prowess, nothing that fits with our transports (except to drop them a little bit further down the map).

Yes, thanks for the addition. That indeed has felt stupid from the moment I started 40k. You'd think the Open Topped rule fixed that by now. But apparently as soon as you're in a vehicle you can't see or hear the person right next to you in that same vehicle anymore. :/ It just doesn't make sense.
In 8th edition, Imperial Armour got my hopes up for a bit, because they gave the Tantalus a Leadership aura if your Warlord was on board. But with 9th edition they forgot about that rule again. :/

sekac wrote:

Cerve wrote:

sekac wrote:

I don’t even agree that Artist of Flesh was a problem. It was competitive, sure, but not meta altering. It was competitive because it was our reaction to an evolving meta. The points increases to Raiders and wyches and incubi didn't push those things out of the meta. Sure we pack a unit or two less, but it was still good. It got pushed out of the meta because newer books can burn 10 wound vehicles with 5++ and 1 wound infantry with 6++ to the ground in no time. With GK hitting very hard in 3 phases and having incredible reach and fire angles, we just got tabled too fast trying to play the MSU Raiders. 


Leaning into coven for the 5+++ against all the mortal wounds out there and -1 damage against all the damage 2 was our way of staying competitive. I think our chance at top tables is more or less gone with this latest nerf.


I think our best list is probably spamming wracks, grotesques, and hellions and trying to run up the score before we're tabled.

I completely disagree with all of this.

No way, AoF were completely broken and nonsense, and yes, we WERE metadefining. Siegler is Siegler, that's for sure, but he just won a GT with AoF+DT with no more than 3-4 learning matches for how simple and stupid and broken Thick City was. -1 Damage was in meta because of US, AoF Wracks were completely no sense, and no we didn't let down Raiders and Strife because of GK, we put them down because of how good became Coven units with new points.



The nerfs are all good imho, it's a good balance, nothing is dead (besides, Talos maybe, not Cronos for sure) and AoF still super good.


And if you got tabled I think it's not a problem of the Codex. We still a top tier Codex, we just need more skills for winning games.
As Drukhari should ever been.

First of all, you're being condescending for no reason. "Git gud" is lazy and pointless 100% of the time. You don't know my skill level, my opponent's skill level, the scenario, the lists, anything. You have literally no idea what you're talking about, so leave it out.


Secondly, if you're argument begins with "sure it's the best 40k player in the world buuuuut...." then you've tacked a gigantic asterisk to what is otherwise very flimsy argument.


You realize Thicc City is a grand total of 40 points cheaper than it was pre-points adjustments? If you honestly think the difference of 5 wracks is what made this list go from completely unseen competitively to winning the GT, you go ahead and think so. 


Because Artists of Flesh has been here since the beginning. So why didn't anyone take it competitively for so long? It's absolutely meta defining, right? Undeniably busted and game breaking and yet....never seen. Do you have any explanation for that? Just the 40 points savings caused people to completely flip how they played Drukhari?


Doesn't make any sense. 


The points adjustments were a small piece of what changed, but as is ALWAYS the case, an evolving meta is what forces things to change.

When GK can teleport a squad and shoot in the psychic phase and blow up a raider. Then shoot in the shooting phase and kill the contents, that isn't a "git gud" issue as you suggest. That is a "oh wow, 250 points disappears in an instant when it doesn't have toughness, saves, and damage reduction" issue. The spiking damage necessitates new list concepts. That's how competitive games work, the meta evolves as new books get released.


...Or maybe you're right and it was just the free wrack squad.

I'm definitely understand your skill level by what you're writing. And that's high as my skill in english.

Seriously, no. It is not just 40 points, GK "teleporting a squad blowing a Raider" definitely it's not what makes them good lol, and no ThickCity wasn't a thing before because Goodstuff was better and way more cheaper.


"Git gud" IS a thing. And usually, bad players pretend that is not so...yeah, everything is as it should be I guess.



C'mon man, if you really belive that Thick City was ok, "just competitive", you definitely don't have a clean sight on this game. It's not that I like being harsh, but when EVERY single pro player in this world say that, arguing that it is not mean put ourself upon every Art of War (or not!) player.

I mean, you sound way more harsh than me by saying this. So...yeah, your words betray you: I can definitely see your skill here.




.....I'm not that bad as an Archon, am I? :p

sekac wrote:

Because Artists of Flesh has been here since the beginning. So why didn't anyone take it competitively for so long? It's absolutely meta defining, right? Undeniably busted and game breaking and yet....never seen. Do you have any explanation for that? Just the 40 points savings caused people to completely flip how they played Drukhari?

Just because it was only used recently doesn't make it any less busted. And the simple reason Thicc City appeared late was because other bust-tacular subfactions came first, featuring favourites such as DT Liquifiers.

sekac wrote:

Cerve wrote:

I'm definitely understand your skill level by what you're writing. And that's high as my skill in english.

Seriously, no. It is not just 40 points, GK "teleporting a squad blowing a Raider" definitely it's not what makes them good lol, and no ThickCity wasn't a thing before because Goodstuff was better and way more cheaper.


"Git gud" IS a thing. And usually, bad players pretend that is not so...yeah, everything is as it should be I guess.



C'mon man, if you really belive that Thick City was ok, "just competitive", you definitely don't have a clean sight on this game. It's not that I like being harsh, but when EVERY single pro player in this world say that, arguing that it is not mean put ourself upon every Art of War (or not!) player.

I mean, you sound way more harsh than me by saying this. So...yeah, your words betray you: I can definitely see your skill here.




.....I'm not that bad as an Archon, am I? :p

Instead of hurling insults, make a coherent argument, please. 


You have yet to explain how 40 points was the difference between Thicc City not existing at all to suddenly needing to be nerfed. 

Are you seriously going to argue that in a head-to-head matchup of the old Drukhari good stuff vs Thicc City before the point changes, that Thicc City couldn't compete? You're entire theory comes down to the fact that 40 points was the difference between Thicc City being not worth taking and absolutely broken. 


Again, makes zero sense. I think you know that too or you'd respond with something with substance rather than just say "I'm right because you're bad at the game" as ways as you can think of. I got tabled in a tournament one time. Fell free to be super confident about whatever gigantic assumptions you want to draw from that one sentence.


Your argument is crap and you're acting like a child about it.

Don't worry, you don't have to get it.

I dont think the nerfs were justified, Thicc City was NOT meta defining, neither was DT liquefier guns, they were both our response to what the meta became, what happened here is after several additions, and thus several years, of druhkari players taking a bottom middle tier army and forcing it to win all of us became better at the game then your average space marine player and so when we finally got a couple of things that put our army on the same level as space Marines, we dominated simply because we have been forced for such a long time to be better if we were going to win or, as ita been so nicely put, we've been forced to "Git Good", so hand us the tools that a top tier army has and we will use them with surgical precision that makes their power seem incredibly overblown, case in point would be AoF ... it's the exact same rule as Disgustingly Resilient, however Disgustingly Resilient wasn't changed and is an army wide rule, AoF effects a 3rd of our overall force so why was only AoF changed if it was meta defining? If that's the case we should have seen a massive shift to death guard ruling the top tables until it was nerfed ... but we didn't... if anything it shows that everyone else needs to "Git Good" ... instead we get Space Marine players complaining that we are to strong and so we get nerfed, just us, not every similar rule, just us ...

Damn, now I understand why good players don't visit this forum anymore

boy......that escalated quickly

On another note, I'd be perfectly fine with the changes, if they errata'd the haemonculus aura to include monsters, and errata'd the appropriate stratagems to include them as well.