Dealing with AoC and Nids

Has anyone done the math on Kabal of Poisoned Tongue to see if warriors(maybe trueborn) can be relevant.

AoC seems to have us in a corner where we’re forced to play coven, but we do have some odd strategems and abilities that might let us play towards kabal.

I understand that AoC basically makes wyches obsolete at best, but it doesn’t really affect poison weapons.

Might be that there’s a hidden gem there

Uh, how does it make Wyches obsolete? They can still burry units in forced armor rolls...

Zenotaph wrote:

Uh, how does it make Wyches obsolete? They can still burry units in forced armor rolls...

Losing a point of AP versus the most common targets in the game is a big knock to the effectiveness of most Wych Cult units - even a unit of twenty Wyches will struggle to kill more than one or two Terminators or Sanguinary Guard models in a single round of combat now.

Burnage wrote:

Zenotaph wrote:

Uh, how does it make Wyches obsolete? They can still burry units in forced armor rolls...

Losing a point of AP versus the most common targets in the game is a big knock to the effectiveness of most Wych Cult units - even a unit of twenty Wyches will struggle to kill more than one or two Terminators or Sanguinary Guard models in a single round of combat now.

So, basically things are (sort of) back to the way they have been in previous editions, where wyches vs. terminators was far from an ideal match, unless you just wanted something to keep the terminators occupied... which I suspect they won't be able to do either, since (I think) marines have more attacks in CC than they used to

sekac wrote:

Yeah wyches are pretty terrible right now. 12 points a model is a lot for a unit that can ONLY bully units that are bad in combat. Better to save 4 points a model and just get wracks. 

How well do they do vs. Nids, particularly with Test of Skill?

But Wyches versus Terminators is Troops vs Elite. And, well, 10 Bloodbribes should do the trick.

In regards to Wyches, also remember that CoS exists. If you happen to have a lot of spare CP lying around you can spend 2CP to get an extra 1AP, 2CP to reroll all wounds, then another 2/3CP to fight again at the end of the phase.

I was playing around with Hellions for the longest time (blocks of 10 with +1S drug), and dropping 4CP to get an extra AP and Reroll Wounds did a fair amount vs most Power Armor.

But now I am just spamming 25 Incubi in every list. They are still great vs most Power Armor, same with our HQs. Im using Wych Cults to deal with Eldar/chaff, and then Incubi/Dark Technomancers to deal with AoC style armies

Nids remain a problem that I cant seem to solve. It takes an unreasonable amount of tailoring to take them on, and even then you are less than 50% likely to win (IMO, with equally skilled opponents)

Wyches are also suffering in the meta-game because Harlequin Players are almost a flat upgrade to them. Drukhari versus Harlequins is, going by the current statistics, a truly horrendous match-up for us solely because outside of some Covens units each of their units basically dominates our equivalents.

I actually think Harlie Troupes are closer to our Incubi. Dark Harlies have the same number of attacks, damage, AP, (one less Strength), and a bunch of upgrades over our humble choppy boys and girls.

But as you say, they dont have our Coven units. A little sad that we cant mix multiple Covens anymore, since those are clearly our best units (would love to mix some DT and AotF Covens again)

fisheyes wrote:

I actually think Harlie Troupes are closer to our Incubi. Dark Harlies have the same number of attacks, damage, AP, (one less Strength), and a bunch of upgrades over our humble choppy boys and girls.

But as you say, they dont have our Coven units. A little sad that we cant mix multiple Covens anymore, since those are clearly our best units (would love to mix some DT and AotF Covens again)

We could still run a DT patrol and a AotF patrol side by side though

sekac wrote:

Niurvindol wrote:

fisheyes wrote:

I actually think Harlie Troupes are closer to our Incubi. Dark Harlies have the same number of attacks, damage, AP, (one less Strength), and a bunch of upgrades over our humble choppy boys and girls.

But as you say, they dont have our Coven units. A little sad that we cant mix multiple Covens anymore, since those are clearly our best units (would love to mix some DT and AotF Covens again)

We could still run a DT patrol and a AotF patrol side by side though

Not in a matched play game. To check if a list is legal, every instance of (in our case) <kabal>, <coven>, and <cult> must be replaced with exactly one instance of the sub-faction chosen throughout the entire army list (not detachment).


In a friendly game, a patrol of each can be taken, but not a competitive game.

So, for clarification, you could still take it but you would forgo raiding forces, right?
Which doesn’t seem worth it

Can't talk about Nids, I just have 1 game against them, definitely not enough to talk about. But I'm playing Coterie since three weeks and I find it super on meta right now. Where lower ap and MW spams reign, Coterie is super strong against both o them.
I know that Skari is playing with 110 Wracks, but I'm not into it. In fact, I support the idea that Coterie is NOT for Wracks spam.
Fnp4+ on Wracks is just a way worse Artist of the Flesh (AotF is -1D AND fnp5+, against straight foward fnp4+: vs D2, you can fail both the 4+, while AotF is -1D auto, and 1/3 of chances to save the second damage too).

In fact, when you see 110 Wracks, and you ask yourself "Aren't them just better with normal Covens?" The answer seems obvious for me.

Fnp4+ is AMAZING on larger pool of wounds: Grotesques and Pain Engines.
Because of core and their cost, Grotesques are the big winners here. In fact, a Coterie list goes 3rd in one fo the lasts goonhammer reviews. It has 18 Grots (they gain so much on Coterie that you simply don't care about half blast, the 6th is just pure gold to not field it).
I'm not losing any game against SM with Coteries. While playing Coterie is not playing Drukhari (a completely different feeling), their board contro is great, they're super durable, good amount of OS (you can field 18 Grots+40-60 Wracks with no efforts at all), the capabily of shut down enemy OS, and the punch that you're going play anyway is just enough for any SM out there.

Anyway, there's no need to kill SMs, just outplay them on objectives game (and kill their legs/OS units - doesn't work agains Deathwing/ThousandsTerminators, just outplay them in this case).

Personally I don't rely too much on Incubi. I use just 1-2 squads of 5 with Drukhari (and 0 with Coterie), trading when needed (and most of the time I use them to kill out OS units, and forcing the oppo to answers to them), I'm not into trying to crush the opponent's anvil. We have speed (even with Coterie), we don't have to try to kill tankier units. Usually, when you see a SM list, you should try to figure out how it will play, which are their hardest units, and just shred everything else. We have both the speed and the trade potential to do that.

Don"t overract into AoR, there's no need to. Kill phobos troops, kill utility units (Eliminators, speeder storms), kill charcters (Strife Succubus is great on that because she ignore every model on the way for 1 CP), counter his primary and secondary game: he picks RND? level their monkey action units under 3 models, he will fail his RnD rolls; He pick Mental Interrogators? Embark your characters and don't.disembark them until turn 3, and-or kill his psyker, and-or (expecially with Coterie) play the Helm of Spite: this relic is game changing, making difficult to your oppo.to pick any psychic secondary before.the game; He takes engages and relies on deepstrike/flaking units (you can guess it reading his list), then play conservative, deny deploy zones on your side and pick Herd the Prey. Etc

SM still dies agains us, except those big blobs of Terminator-ish units, that you can ignore and kill everything else.
PS: vs BA make his Sanguard running all.over.the board, counter his secondaries, and play a lot on fight last: AncienEvil, Vexator Masks, Thropies+Incubi(Drazhar.ofc): they still have 2 wounds, if you can strike hard them you will kill em as before (just take a bit more punch with you).

Honestly, AoC isnt our main issue. The latest codex armies are our issue, due to their extreme strength and efficiency. Its into these Nids/CWE/Harlies/Tau that we have real issues, and IDK if the Cortories have the solution to these forces.

AotF are pretty decent into Harlies, Cults are good into Tau/CWE, but nothing is good into Nids. And while facing these factions, we need to continue to bring tools to deal with the Marine forces.

I, for one, cant wait for the new CA rules/point ballances. Maybe my pointy ears will finally get back onto the Comp Tables...

AoC might not be a big problem, but it is incredibly lazy rules-writing. What happens as the CSM and Space Marine codices get replaced? Is AoC going to stick around? Are they really going to release new codices that are allegedly newly balanced, and keep AoC around as a 'shadow' rule on top of that?

krayd wrote:

AoC might not be a big problem, but it is incredibly lazy rules-writing. What happens as the CSM and Space Marine codices get replaced? Is AoC going to stick around? Are they really going to release new codices that are allegedly newly balanced, and keep AoC around as a 'shadow' rule on top of that?

I would say that AoC will only be a new keyword abilities à-la Malicious Volley or stuff like that.
Even if they release a SM 2.0 or the new Chaos SM, Death Guard and TS are still counting on the AoC so i don't think this is only an ephemeral ability that will disappear.
We will have the answer pretty shortly with the release of Chaos and World Eater codices to see if the ability is not actually written on the book.

The only thing i would change though is that this ability only applies to infantry, but that is another topic