1750 No Darklight Army

Ok guys, following recent events where my rolls for darklight have gone through the floor< I am going to try a list with absolutely no darklight in it at all. Here goes:

1 Baron Sathonyx @ 105 Pts

19 Hellion @ 345 Pts
1 Helliarch @ [41] Pts Splinter Pod (x1); Splinter Pistol; Agoniser

1 Haemonculus @ 50 Pts

1 Haemonculus @ 60 Pts
Liquifier Gun

10 Wracks @ 190 Pts
Liquifier Gun (x2)
1 Raider @ [70] Pts Disintegrator Cannon (x1); Shock Prow; Enhanced Aethersails

7 Wyches @ 204 Pts
Razorflails (x1); Haywire Grenades
1 Hekatrix @ [40] Pts Agoniser
1 Raider @ [70] Pts Disintegrator Cannon (x1); Shock Prow; Enhanced Aethersails

5 Wyches @ 135 Pts
Shardnet & Impaler (x1); Haywire Grenades
1 Venom @ [65] Pts Splinter Cannon (x2)

5 Wyches @ 135 Pts
Shardnet & Impaler (x1); Haywire Grenades
1 Venom @ [65] Pts Splinter Cannon (x2)

5 Wyches @ 135 Pts
Shardnet & Impaler (x1); Haywire Grenades
1 Venom @ [65] Pts Splinter Cannon (x2)

5 Scourges @ 130 Pts
Haywire Blaster (x2)

6 Reavers @ 156 Pts
Heat Lance (x2)

1 Ravager @ 105 Pts
Disintegrator Cannon (x3)

Total Roster Cost: 1750

It's still got a fair amount of AT in it, just in a slightly different form from usual.

Baron/Hellions, will become a tank hunting unit as soon as they gain FC.
All wych squads have haywire grenades, 3 have the shardnet/impaler to get stuck into dreads if required.
Scourges have 2 haywire blasters
Reavers have 2 heat lances
Both raiders have enhanced sails and shock prows, for ramming something as soon as they drop off their crago.
Dissie Ravager will do elite/fnp troop hunting

I reckon there is enought AI with the wracks and venoms, plus the hellions can switch to that role if required.

What do you think? I will be playtesting this with a view to running it in an event in late April.

I love me haywire grenades and heatlances, but I feel you still may come up against some lists that are going to have too many metal boxes for you to handle. Nothing's worse than to have your venoms sit around hoping for a transport to pop open, only for the shooting and assault phase to end, and all the transports are still functional. I'm not necessarily one to say you MUST have something in a list to win every game imaginable, as I will always go against the norm and try weird and crazy things.
I just think maybe looking into putting some other types of vehicle hurt in the list. Maybe work some points around and look in to taking a talos, (or two.) Just my thoughts.

You could also try a reaper?

I like the idea of what you've done here, having read your report of the tournament I can totally understand the justification for it. Like thetyrant, i enjoy doing something a little different (I have Mandrakes instead of blasterborn in my collection - the models are so cool I don't care if they're useless) to most, and do you really have to destroy the vehicles? I think the reliability of haywire to get some kiind of result is equally useful over the course of a game.

Anyone fancy mathammering a haywire scourge unit in comparison to some blasterborn?

Why are you taking the Wracks and not more Wyches?

Objective holding unit?

@Burning Eye - Maybe he wants it for objectives, but it's kitted out to be short range threat - if he wanted it just for objectives he could have made it a lot cheaper. So I don't think that's the reason.

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

Anyone fancy mathammering a haywire scourge unit in comparison to some blasterborn?

I think the Trueblasters would own them.

5 Scourges 2x Haywire (130)
3 Trueborn 3x Blasters Venom w. S. Cannon (146)

Closest applicable discussion - you could make it 130 vs. 136 if you took out the S. Cannon, natch - but no one is going to do that. Venoms cost 65 points, not 55

Threat range;

Scourges - 12"move + 24" = 36"
Trueblasters - 12" move +2" disembark +1" base + 18" range = 33"

Advantage - Scourge

Damage output vs. AV 10-14

Scourges fire 2 shots
Hit 1.3
.88 Glances
.22 Pens
1.0 results that happen.

Damage output vs. AV 12+

Trueblasters fire 3 shots
Hit 2
.33 Glances
.66 Pens
.99 Results that happen

Damage output vs. AV 11

Trueblasters fire 3 shots
Hit 2
.33 Glances
.99 Pens
1.32 Results that happen

Damage output vs. AV 10

Trueblasters fire 3 shots
Hit 2
.33 Glances
1.33 Pens
1.66 Results that happen

==========================================

O course what results happen is debatable, but by dint of penetrating the Trueblasters will *always* be statistically more likely to actually wreck something.

The strength of the Scourges can be seen as compared to the Trueblasters vs. AV 12+ where the Scourges are statistically very slightly more likely to do something. Also, if you break down the probabilities (I am loathe to even attempt it) you will discover they are more likely to generate a glance overall, and thus fulfill their goal of hopefully making the enemy vehicle not shoot back - the Trueblasters will be more likely to blow up a weapon or immobilize it, and thus still allow shooting of some sort.

Thor665 wrote:

@Burning Eye - Maybe he wants it for objectives, but it's kitted out to be short range threat - if he wanted it just for objectives he could have made it a lot cheaper. So I don't think that's the reason.

Fair point, I don't use wracks at all myself so it was just a thought.

Thanks for doing that mathammering, my gut feeling was that the scourges would be more likely to generate consistent results in terms of preventing the enemy from firing, though less likely to actually destroy it. I guess to an extent, you've also got the effects of the blaster itself to add in, though at its pitiful strength it's only going to be very occasional that it makes a difference and then only against the most lightly armoured vehicles.

the wracks i would guess are good for their double LG and also possible pain token shenanigans:
haemie starts with hellions, baron starts with wracks, baron steals wracks token and haemie leaves his with hellions, baron joins hellions = hellions with FNP and FC (with +1 strength CD and +1 strength hellgliave = )

The wracks are there as an aggresive threat to the opponents objective or to clear out large blobs of guardsmen, grots or bugs.
Not having grenades will hamper them when going into terrain but the 2 liquifiers should do plenty of damage pre-charge to those type of units, that the numbers should stack up ok. I was thinking of flaming units from on board and then next turn dis-embarking and flaming before piling in if needs be. FnP and T4 should help against any explosions from vehicle carnage.

I'm going to start the wracks in their raider not with the Baron this time. I've done the double PT swap in the past but in this list I'd like the wracks to have theirs so that I can use them as above. So the spare Hemi will join the Baron/Hellions unit at deployment then walk away, leaving the PT with them from the outset. This means they will have to get onto something and despatch it quickly to get FC as soon as possible, so they will be very aggressive from the outset. People who played against last years list have said they were always threatened by the hellion blob so i want to give it another go.

It's all open to change though as this is the first time I've gone with no darklight, so I'm not too sure if this can be competitive at all.

I love Scourges - brilliant models, and one of only two choices in the whole book that can take haywire blasters. However, they will do next to nothing against demonically possessed vehicles, or anything else that ignores shaken or stunned results - most of the time, if they hit, it'll glance, and then you have to roll high to do anything worth mentioning. I know this from painful experience. They are amazing against armies that don't have these upgrades, as they have an effective 36" range and will usually stop a tank firing for a turn, or longer. So they might do something, but depending on who you're fighting, that something might be written off. If that's the case, I'd keep them back a bit, as they're not going to be game changing, and just keep my fingers crossed that they can soften something up before what you actually want to destroy it with gets there. I've found that on a table with an average amount of terrain, starting them on the board worked really well, as deep striking them always seems to turn them into a suicide unit - they turn up on target, then I roll a double one for the haywire blasters, barely having time to shed a tear for them before they're gone in a hail of bolter fire.

@kenny, that's fine, it's your list and your preferences

It's a nice effort but I don't see it becoming competitive. I have a hard time believing a Hellion horde would have success where DL shots failed, etc etc. Why didn't you just buy a new set of dice instead? I've read your report; they're obviously cursed.