Old vs. New - Battle of the Wych Lords & Succubus

Anggul wrote:

While the old wych lords could technically be better due to the armoury, it really wasn't very fluffy to have a wych with a tormentor helm, punisher and shadowfield

Why not?

I believe that sentiment comes from the fact that Incubi use tormentor helms and punishers. It's essentially an incubi loadout, which are a Kabalite unit.

and Agonisers are strictly wych only? What about venom blades? I mean Haemies have access to scissorhands, which are basically super venom blades. So does that mean only Coven units should wield venom blades?

This is my problem with "Fluffy" players. In 40k you can make up anything, and it isnt wrong. Heck if I wanted to make a half-Human half-Eldar who fell to Chaos, only to be saved by the Tau "Greater Good" theory and is now a General in the Tau army, who is working with Orks to stop a Tyranid invasion on a Necon Tomb World, well guess what, I just did. Sure there are some things that are more in line with what GW has written about the races, but then in a world of say, a million or so DE in Commogarah, Im sure there is atleast one Archite/Succubus that was like "hey... I like those Incubi weapons... maybe I should get a set". Plus it could be a huge trident with a ring laser that act like "a punisher and tormentor helm". I mean come on... Lelith's hair is a shardnet?

Shadows Revenge wrote:

and Agonisers are strictly wych only? What about venom blades? I mean Haemies have access to scissorhands, which are basically super venom blades. So does that mean only Coven units should wield venom blades?

This is my problem with "Fluffy" players. In 40k you can make up anything, and it isnt wrong. Heck if I wanted to make a half-Human half-Eldar who fell to Chaos, only to be saved by the Tau "Greater Good" theory and is now a General in the Tau army, who is working with Orks to stop a Tyranid invasion on a Necon Tomb World, well guess what, I just did. Sure there are some things that are more in line with what GW has written about the races, but then in a world of say, a million or so DE in Commogarah, Im sure there is atleast one Archite/Succubus that was like "hey... I like those Incubi weapons... maybe I should get a set". Plus it could be a huge trident with a ring laser that act like "a punisher and tormentor helm". I mean come on... Lelith's hair is a shardnet?

So I'll go ahead and presume that no-one read all of my post. I made the point that giving both the archon and the archite the same wargear options was pretty much just limiting the difference between the two to changing the FoC and slight stat changes. With the new system, they are noticeably different. If you have an archite with punisher, tormentor helm and shadow field, it's barely any different to an archon.

Also, I didn't even slightly suggest that agonisers were wych only or that venom blades are haemonculus only, you're simply blowing what I said completely out of proportion. The simple fact is that it makes them do the same thing, so there's no point in seperate entries.

not a bad point, but I will say there was more of a point for an Archite last codex than there is now. Last codex they made wyches troops and kabalites elite. That was the reason to take them. If you wanted to run a wych cult, then you had to take an Archite for it.

In the current edition there is no reason at all to take a Succubus unless it is for fluff. In fact many people make so called "wych cult" lists and use Haemies as their HQs instead. In fact we have had whole discussions about why is the Succubus even in this codex? Other than for fluff and being a "cheap Archon" there is no other reason for her now. Atleast last edition if you wanted to play certain style of army, the Archite was required.

Shadows Revenge wrote:

and Agonisers are strictly wych only? What about venom blades? I mean Haemies have access to scissorhands, which are basically super venom blades. So does that mean only Coven units should wield venom blades?

Whoa, easy! I didn't say I felt that way. I was just speculating as to where the sentiment might come from. I'm on your side.

That said, I rather liked the old dex's HQs. Between the various retinue options and the kabal/cult distinction, they had a very significant effect on the character of your army. Requiring an Archite for the Wych Cult FoC redistribution was a great way to motivate people to pay the extra points over a Dracite, too.

It's unfortunate that the Succubus is such a poor substitute. With the exception of Haemonculi, I found the new dex's HQ selections rather disappointing. Poor Lelith.

corollax wrote:

Shadows Revenge wrote:

and Agonisers are strictly wych only? What about venom blades? I mean Haemies have access to scissorhands, which are basically super venom blades. So does that mean only Coven units should wield venom blades?

Whoa, easy! I didn't say I felt that way. I was just speculating as to where the sentiment might come from. I'm on your side.

That said, I rather liked the old dex's HQs. Between the various retinue options and the kabal/cult distinction, they had a very significant effect on the character of your army. Requiring an Archite for the Wych Cult FoC redistribution was a great way to motivate people to pay the extra points over a Dracite, too.

It's unfortunate that the Succubus is such a poor substitute. With the exception of Haemonculi, I found the new dex's HQ selections rather disappointing. Poor Lelith.

lol one thing you should learn is I am very analyitical and take nothing to offense, sorry that I came off as angry, but such is the way of the internet as there is almost no way to judge emotion.

As for the new Dex's HQs it could be said it is because of the changes of the editions away from Herohammer towards more of a force needed to win. We were the true last Herohammer codexi. One Archon/Archite could destory 3/4s of the opponents army if used effectively. Sadly this doesnt boad well to sales figures, so they had to be tone down quite a bit. That being said Im actually happy our HQs kept some of their bite. Look at both the Archon and the Succubus. Sure they wont take out their older versions most of the time, but against the current generation of books, I dare you to find a non-special HQ that can stand up to either of them for long. The Archon having the "ID sword of Awesomeness plus Pokeball of Doom", and the Succubus point for point probably is the most effective killing machine out there.

Also I will say that I am quite happy that Vect is quite possibly the best dualist, with only good ol Failbaddon giving him a run for his money. Not to shabby for a codex that all was about OP HQs imho

Possibly, though I can't help but miss competent retinues. (Court of the Archon? Seriously!?) Being able to work around the FoC was a nice little addition, as well.

That said, my style of HQ definitely leans closer to the new Haemonculus than the new Lelith. Our codex is filled with beatsticks. Haemonculi, the Baron and the Duke are the only real exceptions. I don't find it at all surprising that these HQs see the most play in tournaments. Yet they constitute only a very small part of our HQ section, most of which goes entirely unused....

I use Vect quit a lot, also, you should take a look at my cout of the archon question... most seem to agree that they aren't incompetent at all, just that the points are normally spent on blasterborn and troops, which makes sense... I plan on trying them out before long though...

What can I say? I evaluate the quality of units by how well they compete with other units at their point level (or in their FOC slots). Taking a unit is always done at the exclusion of something else -- if the comparison isn't favorable, it's a poor choice.

That doesn't mean i get to ignore them when someone else fields them. It just means I get to breathe a small sigh of relief, in that they're not bringing something even more dangerous.

I am officially stuck on the spanking imagery

A fully loaded Archite with the animus vitae was an absolute wrecking ball on the battle field bar none.

If they allowed the Succubus a wwp or at least a clone field or even a soul trap I would say she ain't bad. Right now, she is as useful as the Kheradruahk and I have used the Decrapitator more than the Suck-a-bus.

I do not see things changing anytime soon.

The current succubus is great if you want six agoniser attacks before anything else for a good eight points. If you want a close combat nasty, take the archon. I use the Succubus for 1200 games or less.