Agonising over the Agoniser

Math heads unite. It's that time again. Despite what's implied in the topic title, I'd like this thread to be about all of our 'best' weapons. After some initial discussion and numbers, I'm probably going to add a poll.

Most DE generals slap Agos on their assaulty sarges and HQs without thinking. Admit it, we've all been there. I've even seen some Haemy builds with the damn thing. But is the Ago really everything we're making it out to be? A couple of random observations:

- DOUBLE the cost of a basic Power Weapon. QUADRUPLE the cost of a Venom Blade. Capitalised for implied insanity, of course.
- in (my) reality high-T targets are actually quite few and far between. You got your Wraithlords, maybe a Nidzilla player here and there, but most opponents' Big Dangerous Things fall into the mech department.
- the Poison effect applies to all our AI shooting. This taken into consideration, those high-T targets mentioned earlier might not warrant our cc units' attention in the first place.
- let's, for argument's sake, assume you want your assault thing to gain its PfP FC somewhere down the road of a battle. If you've taken an Ago over a PW, you've now handicapped yourself against everything lower than T4. If you've rolled the Strength drug to boot, even male Archons are allowed to cry at this stage.

No math yet! But I'd love to hear some first thoughts.

Have at it, my fellow Archons,
Raneth

without doing math I see no other weapon choice (well... maybe the huskblade, but that has its own merits) worth our Wyches and HQs. There is reason you dont see guardsmen w/ PW or why you dont see banshees without a doom seer, S3 just sucks against T4 units. Needing those 5s to wound is a pain to get. The agoniser gives you a half chance to wound, which isnt half bad considering not only the amount of T4 on the board at once, but also the resergance of T5 (Cron Characters, Bikers of the SM or Ork variety, wraithguard, daemon princes) Its again way better than just a power weapon. It allows us to be that all comers list.

Now if you dont fight against ork or SM biker lists... or Crons, I could see trying to get around it by just including a haemie and staying with the power weapon, hoping to either get the pain token with the drugs or picking off a weaken unit for FC, then ok I can concede almost. But I will point out if you try that, that puts the wyches into that role of hunting down trying to get the second pain token. Personally for me I like to have options opened up, not being so tunneled visioned into needing that pain token. I guess its just personal preference.

Also I would point out that if you add that haemie. Your reason for not getting the agoniser is mute since you just paid 50 pts for just a pain token

I think it boils down to the purpose of using melee squads at all.

We use it to pin something down, to deny its moving and shooting and to ultimately kill it if possible. Cause we have objectives in our games.
But all of those things matter. What Aggie matters is *staying* there in the fight.

Its brings reliability that you wont actually lose combat and will be forced to roll morale check and will possibly fail in what you are supposed to do with melee - keep the bastards dying and and stationary.
Yes it damnably kill 2 bodies of anything on average. But those kills will be there most of the time.
You dont pray on drugs, on 5s, on opponent not rolling 3+.

Venom Blade - it brings reality of enemy just passing all armor saves, power weapon - same, you pray on 5s.

Thats for sergeants mainly.

For HQ thats a little different. Who would really want Aggi? Our basic archon with incubi - well that does improve what the squad do anyway. Succubi? I franlkly dont even want to use her right now, at least not untill that WS8 will mean something.

Haemy? Is it even wise to make him CC oriented? Aggie is not wise on him, with the ease he can have FC from start he must have PW or nothing at all.

Quote :

There is reason you dont see guardsmen w/ PW

I actually see them in a Straken Platoon.

Azdrubael wrote:

I think it boils down to the purpose of using melee squads at all.

We use it to pin something down, to deny its moving and shooting and to ultimately kill it if possible. Cause we have objectives in our games.

It is exactly this notion that I'm trying to shake off. My experience with with Incubi has taught my that it is feasible for DE to cc through the enemy like a hot knife through butter. Opponents LOVE to try and pin them down with high-T tanks but so far I've always had the speed and range available to anticipate and counter effectively.

I'm not saying Wyches aren't totally awesome. If I deem a unit too dangerous to engage with my Incubi, and I can't outright mow it down without overlooking other high-priority targets, it's probably the right play to slam some Wyches into them and really abuse the hell out of that Inv.

@ SHADOW:

Bikers are nasty, as we've already discussed Their ability to pick and choose their fights coupled with high-T makes them a difficult prospect to face. But (as already discussed), bike T doesn't count for ID purposes and those lists are typically short on AV so our Lances are mostly free to wreak havoc. That counts for something, right?

@ AZZY:

Thanks for keeping it real, and marking the Ago as a defensive weapon

I have to agree that str 3 sucks at times. I don't run agonizers though and get around it by using power weapons and the Duke to get a decent combat drug roll (re-roll wounds or +1 str for instance). This works most of the time, but without the Duke I would run agonizers.

I do think it's 5 points too much, but definitely has it's place with so much T4 on the tables.

Overpriced junk, just a str4 power wep for most of any games you play , marines get that for ten points on a tougher platform ?

Does clash with some drugs results too, which contributes to the sour taste.

Dunno I resent paying that much for them so badly that I avoid taking them at all , Venom blade seems to do fine for the low low cost , put two or three wounds on anything consistently and they will fail, had my wyches beat termies and all sorts without needing an agoniser.

I agree 15 points would make more sense, especially now it no longer glances.

Quote :

Dunno I resent paying that much for them so badly that I avoid taking them at all , Venom blade seems to do fine for the low low cost , put two or three wounds on anything consistently and they will fail, had my wyches beat termies and all sorts without needing an agoniser.

I completly agree, although on my archon I take the huskblade. The ULTIMATE character killer for dark eldar.

The problem I have with the huskblafe is str 3... I find it galling that we pay that many points for something that must be worth rather alot less, Gk have str 4/5 ewuivalents accross the board , thet dont even cost as much as a huskblade induvidually.....

Then you look at powerfist avalability (or equivalents) which are as good most of the time and vastly superior vs tanks.

Dont get me wrong, it does kinda work when the 5s and 6s flow (sometimes) modt things worth killing have an invuln, so really you have to be lucky for it to work, I think dru he'gs and a soul trap may even be mandatory, and prob a shadowfeild to hopefully give you a chance to go again in the likely event of a whiff

Now we are into mega pricy territory, I ran this setup for quite a while and he'a very hit and miss.

What was maximum influence after it hit? Does this S6 power weapon really helps a lot in the game?

If you get a combat drug roll of 2 it adds +1 WS, which to me is ideal for agonizers. Makes them 3+ 4+ against MEQ, and on a succubus with 6 attacks on the charge ain't too shabby

I liked the agoniser until recently when i started to think about it, and heres my ideas why:
1. Not a poison weapon, you gain 0 benefit from str to reroll wounds.
2. Point coust, 20 compared to the 5, 10 and 15s
3. There are plenty of 4+ poison weapons that work w/ your strength

Reasons why:
1. Archons have no other good options
2. Against high toughness 5+ it works well
3. Models look cool.

I came to realize last night fighting deathwing, Haemons need flesh gauntlet if they are with wracks or grotesques, because a 4+ remove from play that you get 5-6 attacks with makes a big differance, and when you can reroll the wound on the charge, even IC and MC will be hurt.

Agonisers arent bad, and you do need some. I personally will be placing them on my wyches, a 4++ is a great carrier for that weapon. But haemons should never use it when there is other things that can be take for the same or lower price that are much more effective.

Hi guys, and welcome back.

Math is proving to be difficult to implement for squad sergeants; maybe it's just me being lazy. This might not be a big deal, since Wyches 4++ lends theirs well to a 'grindy' weapon like the Ago (derp), but I feel it's a shame nonetheless since I was trying to make point about them carrying PWs as well. Alas, I'm going to have to stick with basic HQs for now.

The only ones that lend themselves to cc duties are the Archon and the Succubus, imho. The Haemonculus (Ancient) will as such not be included; if anyone feels the need to deduce their prowess they are are of course very welcome to do so.

Calculations shall be done for these weapons:
- basic cc weapon
- Venom Blade
- Power Weapon
- Agoniser

The assault will be assumed.

Combat Drugs will not be taken into account. The results are simply too unpredictable to build around and/or account for.

Furious Charge will not be taken into account. Though this is a true game-breaker, especially with weapons with the basic PW quality, there's just too much fiddlyness involved to count on it on the first assault.

Additional wargear will not be taken into account. Admittedly, math-wise, additional wargear slightly favours the more expensive weapons, since kill/pts ratios are affected less.

Tests will be against GEQ (T3, 5+) and MEQ (T4, 3+).

Knowing that MEQ kills are worth a lot more than GEQ kills will be assumed.

First up: THE ARCHON

v GEQ wrote:

BASIC (60): 1.333
6 * 0.667 * 0.5 * 0.667
kills/pts * 100: 2.222

VB (65): 2.222
6 * 0.667 * 0.833 * 0.667
kills/pts * 100: 3.419

PW (70): 2
6 * 0.667 * 0.5
kills/pts * 100: 2.857

AGO (80): 2
6 * 0.667 * 0.5
kills/pts * 100: 2.500

At first sight, the Venom Blade seems to reign supreme in this division. And I admit, for a long time I assumed as much. But when saves go up (CE AW, Tau) and FnP (Plaguebearers, DE) rears its head, things get a bit uglier for the VB - and the best you can hope for are strength-induced ToWound re-rolls. PWs and Agos' ratios aren't much worse to begin with, get around the problem altogether, and of these the PW does it for cheaps. Later on, it enjoys the benefits of FC as well, whereas Ago wielders are left to cry.

Ran's vote: POWER WEAPON
(honorary mention: VENOM BLADE)

v MEQ wrote:

BASIC (60): 0.444
6 * 0.667 * 0.333 * 0.333
kills/pts * 100: 0.741

VB (65): 1.111
6 * 0.667 * 0.833 * 0.333
kills/pts * 100: 2.222

PW (70): 1.333
6 * 0.667 * 0.333
kills/pts * 100: 1.905

AGO (80): 2
6 * 0.667 * 0.5
kills/pts * 100: 2.500

Bam, Ran's getting his *** handed to him. I'm positively shocked to see the PW score so low. But, maybe I'm just spoiled by my Incubi bodyguard, and always assume Mr Grenade Launcher is taking it easy for the moment.

Yeah, that must be it.

But what about that VB, eh? Despite being marred by Armor Saves it manages to do almost as well as the PW.

FC might skew this a bit but, personally, I don't equip my Archon with Combat Drugs to begin with. As he doesn't (need to) do much v MEQ, what with his Incubi, it's a tempting option to account for that high-T enemy that might manage to force its way assaulting your peepz.

Ran's vote: AGONISER
(honorary mention: VENOM BLADE)

special mention because I felt like it: DJIN BLADE... no rebelling... (80) wrote:

v GEQ: 2.667
8 * 0.667 * 0.5
kills/pts * 100: 3.333

v MEQ: 1.778
8 * 0.667 * 0.333
kills/pts * 100: 2.222

Certainly a worthy consideration. Food for thought?

I've always ran an Agoniser it is the best weapon in the last codex and this one. It also works well synergy wise with Incubi slicing marines and the Archon killing MCs. My Archon has slaughtered his fair share of Wraithlords and Carnifexs using the Agoniser.

It's generally a toss up, depending on the role of the unit. Best value is on characters like a Syren or better with high base attacks, while a Hekatrix is more likely to be just tarpitting or winning through weight of wych attacks.

I've run double Succubus with Agonisers as a cheap counter-charge unit that dogpiles on anything that comes near my backfield, but otherwise, I generally don't use them that often, really. If I want a CC unit, I'm either going all in with Incubi, a kitted out Archon (usually with Huskblade/ST), Wracks, Hellions, or Beasts instead.

It's funny seeing all the flak I got on this forum for "not taking Agonizers" and "Not seeing how Blasterborn are "goods" and finally threads popping up realizing what I realized awhile ago.

Now, I don't want to sound like I'm cocksure or full of it, but I really feel like the hipster who played SNES and Genesis back in the day and nowadays it's "cool!" even though I was called a geek and nerd like they were derogatory terms back in the day.

Anyways

I go Power Weapon or Venom Blade for reasons already stated -

Power Weapons are cheap and still have good synergy with other buffs/gear around DE armies.

Venom Blades are cheaper and rely on the old adage of TORRENT OF FIRE to do damage, which any DE player should know, considering the lot of you did do Venomspams back in the day (and golly knows, still think this as a good army?), how this didn't apply to the combat sense, I don't know.

The Agonizer is the "Power Fist" of codex DE, and Power Fists are worse off nowadays, hell hardly if at all see them anymore around where I play.

I still standby the Archon layout of Venom Blade/Djin Blade/Blaster OR Blast Pistol for this reason, choice of torrent of poison or power weapon strikes is enough to threaten ANYTHING.

/hipster out lol

The problem with the venom blade is while you get more wounds per capita than the agoniser, you add in another dice roll. We have all had those days when you are playing against an SM player, and he makes every save possible. By not passing that save roll, you skew your results. Sure mathhammer says it should kill 1 marine, but when you add probability there is a good chance he makes that save (btw Im a huge supporter of Mathhammer, but I also understand about range of probability). ignoring one dice roll is a huge thing in 40k, and its why people pay a premium for power weapons and the like.

Also I dont see the powerfist and the agoniser in the same way. The powerfist is there as insurrence. It makes sure a dreadnaught or MC cant run into a tactical squad and ruin their day. Its also gives you some IC protection, in which you can hope to ID them, saving you alot of casualties the next round of combat. Its there as protection, as well as to hit a tank or two if you get a chance.

The Agoniser is there to push our army into winning each combat. Its static one wound (or more, depending on the platform) pretty much works like a banner in fantasy. It allows us to make sure our wyches win, which in turn lets you get the most out of their high I and chase down units, or atleast cause fearless wounds.

Oh, and I take powerfists all the time. Sure you dont see them in 5 man squads just taken for the razorback, but when you play BB and have to take 10 man tacticals to get any use out of them, that point cost is easy to swallow to protect your investment

I tend to find that St3 sucks, but it is possible to get around it without the use of an agoniser. When I'm playing assault with Wyches I tend to give them a Haemonicles with a venom blade and a crucible of something-(to make it interesting) but its the FnP that's important, once we have that furious charge is not so hard. When I run with Agonisers they can be useful but I wouldn't say worth the price, 2 more wyches would cause more pain.

A side from that and back to the OP I would say that our best "weapon" is not anything in the wargear section but rather the Power from Pain rule and the fear that other Generals show when they are faced with the first blow from a DE Force. Although, for coolness I would say the Huskblade+Soul trap combo on an Archon is pretty sick. At my local club I had one game with that combo and munched my way through
2 independent characters giving me a St7 (Furious charge) Archon that instant killed anything it wounded and marched him alone into a Paladin squad with messy consequences for him... After that, it wasn't the huskblade that was doing well, it was the manipulation from just seeing him on the battle field closing in on a unit that was the most effective. DE can be very psychological and I think that's our best (and a very unique) weapon that we have, until they shoot back...

I did some Mathhammer in a thread a while back talking about this.

A lot of things depend on the meta.

If you are doing friendly games, then whatever floats your boat is the way to go.

However, from a competitive sense with tournaments in mind, the agonizer is the way to go.

It's most worthy attribute is its consistency. Toughness does not matter and neither does feel no pain. Agonizers will almost always give 2 wounds no matter what. If you get lucky and get the drug that allows for rerolling failed wounds, that is so much better and in my opinion better than the +1 to str drug

At the tourneys I have been to, I have yet to not face minimum 2 Blood Angels armies with FNP like its going out of style.

the other is Chaos which loves it death guard.

Another is Ork Nobs with docs and FNP.

Tyranids MC with FNP. Ouch.

Venom blades and power weapns show their real weakness against T4 or more and FNP. needing 5 to wound or 6 to wound really drags your wounding ability down. It doesn't make a difference against T3 models, but most T3 models are going to be inside transports or try to swarm you and their save is usually pretty bad.

True you can shoot some of these things, but if you have dedicated assault units, they will be charged and then be whittled down. I used to swear venom blades were awesome, until my wych units started getting thrashed by 3+/4+. I tend to run 2 or 3 wych units with a succubus with an Agonizer. A succubus and a Hekatrix with Agonizer usually is 5 -6 dead marines or 4 dead termies unless they have storm shields.

There are always going to be those who swear by other venoms blades or power weapons, but the agonizer is expensive and consistant. I think a lot of what bugs us is that you don't really have the ability to get crazy numbers of wounds like you could get with Lighting claws or marine ICs with a Power weapon, but I will take consistant any day of the week.


My 2 pain tokens.