Archon Tactics and Equipment

I have a few questions about using and equipping an Archon, and I am also looking for general observations on my setup. I don't have very much experience (<10 games in this edition) so this was put together solely on speculation. I was embarrassed to have my squad charged on and beaten by Space Marines the other day (Grey Knights with power weapons and a Str 6 Inquisitor, Marines nonetheless) so I am coming here to vent my frustrations and ask for help.

My current HQ assault squad in my 1500 pt list consists of:

Archon w/ Agonizer, Shadow Field, Combat Drugs
Haemonculus w/ Liquifier
5 Incubi
in a Raider w/ Enhanced Aethersails and Flickerfield.

The typical game result is I deploy my Raider somewhere near the middle, or reserved if I am going second. I move flat out towards a target of opportunity, attempting to stay out of line of sight. The Raider is shot down anyways, so the squad hoofs it towards the enemy's lines, usually dumping the Haemonculus so it can run. 2 Inubi might survive long enough to get into combat, then the Lord has a fight with the first target in range, does some work but doesn't blow anything out of the water, then is inevitably ganged up on or shot up. Or, he gets singled out by said Str 6 Inquisitor and fails a save.

Overall, it seems very hard to A) keep his transport alive and B) get him and a decent retinue near a useful target and C) not be vulnerable afterwards. I fight a lot of shooting armies, so it seems to be a "Pick One" scenario. Here are the various solutions I am pondering

Solution 1: Take my time more. Really doctor the terrain before battle, and aim for a Turn 3-4 assault rather than a Turn 2 Death or Glory. It would make my Ravager/Razorwing/Blasterborn draw more fire.

Solution 2: Play another assault unit. Split the enemy's fire more. I have more Incubi models, or proxy Wracks; I could steal a Venom from some Warriors and get a third target on the field.

Solution 3: Play a more durable retinue My least favorite, as I would pretty much have to buy Grotesques. It would also cost more points without adding another unit.

Solution 4+: Whatever the forum suggests!

Also, on a minor note: I have seen many people extoll the virtues of a Phantasm Grenade Launcher on the Archon. I'm not really seeing it, though this may be because I am usually don't get to pick which unit I assault. I was also unimpressed by Haywire Grenades, but they are cheap enough. Are Drugs unnecessary? Am I worrying myself to death with so few games played?

I am presently running 2 cheap archons... shadowfield, venom blade, HWG, blaster... 115 each.

I used to run assault archons but encountered similar issues you have outlined.

These are cheap, durable and effective - even generating wounds easily in combat as needed

People rave about the Phantasm grenade launcher because the ability for the Archon and his unit of Incubi to strike at their initiative even when assaulting through cover is invaluable - Incubi rely on getting their decent strength power weapon attacks in before the opponent has a chance to hurt them, and making them strike after everyone else with a power weapon has had a pop at them is doing them a disservice. Arguably, they're there as ablative wounds for the Archon in the first place, being a bodyguard unit, but if you're not kitting the Archon out to let them get their attacks in, they're forced to be that and nothing more. If it's ablative wounds you want, there's cheaper units that are harder to wound, like Wracks, or more expensive units which are much harder to wound, like Grotesques. I put him with Incubi and give him him a PGL personally.

When I equip my Archon, I always give him Ghostplate armour as well. After the inevitable failed shadow field save, I don't like having to rely on kabalite armour and no invulnerable save. If you've armed him for close combat, and he's with Incubi, they're obviously going to attract an unholy amount of fire, so providing the terrain is reasonable, I'd probably go with a turn 3 assault - that way you can hold up those shooting units with other units, and with any luck assault them with something that can keep them busy until the Archon gets there. If the terrain is really nice though, ie you have a building you can muster behind with an opposing unit just behind it, take advantage of that and get in early. In general, the unit will be safer in combat than anywhere else, and that's where it'll do the most damage.

With regard to the haemonculus, I'm not sure you wouldn't be better off just giving the Archon more Incubi. Presumably he breaks off before the assault as he just slows them down by not being fleet. After the Haemonculus gifts his pain token, he has no purpose other than to give away a kill point, which he will invariably do as you struggle to get him in range of something for his liquifier gun to melt that won't just turn around and instantly annihilate him. That's always been my experience anyway! Having the pain token turn one is useful, but you might get lucky and roll for it on combat drugs. And if you choose your target carefully, he should have no trouble picking one up quickly, especially with nine extra power weapon attacks for the same points cost.

What Mr Believer said. It's not worth running the risk of having to charge an enemy in cover and watching your expensive incubi get smacked about before they even get a chance to strike. After all, that's what they're supposed to do to your opponent!

I'd also add that I like the idea of distracting the opponent with something else to shoot at, but it needs to be a credible threat - giving him the choice between shooting at your Archon and Incubi or, let's say for example, 5 basic wyches, they're going to shoot at your archon. I personally would say this is where Mandrakes can come in useful, deploy them so that they can tie up opponents shootiest units to allow your assault troops to get into combat unscathed. Yes, I realise at 15 points each that's quite an expensive option, but nothing else in the codex can infiltrate and use this tactic.

Once he's in combat, you might want to consider a huskblade on your Archon, as unsaved wounds cause instant death, it really depends on what you're usually trying to kill. Agoniser is a good all rounder, venom blade is cheap and the 2+ to wound is great, but more useful against stuff with a poor armour save.

GKs can be a tough one for DE for a few reasons...... instant death from force weapons is a pain, and they have a lot of St6 weapons and stacking hammer hand that can cause ID as well I'd have thought your archon would rinse an inquisitor before he even hit you, but assume you targetted the squad or a different target..........

I'm just getting my archon out and about more recently, so won't claim to be an expert but a few pointers/ideas, and how I'm running mine.

First up, if you are going with Incubi, DO invest in the phantasm grenade launcher. They have to be hitting first or you lose so much. If you stick with incubi, deffo invest in the PGL.

Choose your targets. Bully troops, that is what incubi excel at, hitting power armour before they hit you, and GKs once they are taking damage drop like any other marine (altho with halberds, they might still hit you first).

At first glance, you have a great little CC unit there. BUT. If that is your only CC unit, then that's why you are getting in to trouble. They need support, and more targets dilutes the fire power coming their way.

You have a haemi already, so I'd consider taking a unit of wracks. Good in assualt (but also lack grenades, so avoid assualting in to cover) and put them in a raider or venom, and move them up to support.

Wyches are also excellent, and complement an Archon well IMO, with shardnets and a clone field, you can even stop damage coming their way full stop.

Basically, if you're sending a single assualt element forwards with no support, they will die, not matter what they are, and DE are so fast, there is no real reason not to be advancing with them. It also means if their transport does get popped they can 'borrow' some one elses.

I would strongly suggest getting in to position turn 1 (and avoid the temptation to go for the T1 charge, it opens u up to being out of position), but you do deffo want to get assualting as soon as possible. So set up T1, ideally with a target you can reach even if your transport is blown on the way in.

I would avoid doctoring terrain. Play to what is there and make te emost of it, but you are setting ur self up with a crutch if you have to be laying terrain to support you assualts. A friend of mine does this and not only is it tedious, it is holding him back from getting better.

Once you've added more to your advance party, consider spreading things out a bit........ Any unit that is bringing your archon is deffo going to be targetted. Bringing a hamie as well, doubly so. If that supporting unit happens to be incubi as well......... well that really is 1 nice fat target and once taken down, your over all list is a lot less scary. So maybe consider spreading those units around a bit. You have to take troops anyway, so some wyches or wracks to go with the archon and heamie, and the incubi on their own (maybe with a haemi of their own) means either unit getting in to CC is not something your opponent is going to want, but now they have to tackle both transports to do so. Of course, you'll have to weigh this up as the incubi lose the nades this way........ so perhaps the archon stays with them, and the haemi goes with some cheap wyches....... or u take wracks instead who bring their own pain token........

I tend to not take full units unless there is a purpose (like warriors with a heavy weapon in a raider). This leaves me with choices during deployment...... once combat drugs have been rolled to where I put my ICs. If you roll a pain token, then the haemi can deffo go else where...........

That covers the general ideas which might help.......... some specifics of what I am doing atm. I'm still working on a hybrid list using kabals, cults and covens and not 100% settled yet................

So my archon comes in at 140 points and she gets:

Blaster
Djinn Blade (I keep the CC weapon, as it looks cooler, but the pistol is prob a better option).
Shadow Field
Combat drugs
Haywire grenades

Rough 1k list as an example:

Archon (see above)
Haemie, liquifier gun, venom blade

7 Wyches, hekatrix, power weapon, shardnet, haywire nades. Raider, night field.
5 Wracks, leader, scissor hand, liquifier gun. Raider, flicker field.
5 Warriors, blaster. Venom, extra splinter cannon.
3 Reavers, blaster
3 Reavers, blaster
Razor wing, splinter cannon, flicker field.

I tend to put all my eggs in one basket (totally against what i said above, but ensure they can hit home T2 transport or not), so archon and haemi go with the wyches, and have at least FNP. they zoom forwards as far as they can, ideally out of sight, but that is not usually possible.

The wracks then advance 12" so they can be ready to suport if needed, and can fire their dark lance for suppression.

The reavers I will admit I'm still finding a true role for. With blasters they have the chance to be dealing with armour as well, or turbo boost forwards as support. To date, my reavers usally get shot up T1 every game and feel like a waste, but so far, I usually get something in to assualt T2, so sometimes that is not such a bad thing if they save other units, as they can not be ignored.

Warriors venom advances forwards too, shooting if it has targets, or just advancing if needed, also ready to support T2 as needed, targeting tanks, infantry or even ploughing in to assualt, but only in extreme emergencies, or if their transport is popped.

So while i only really have 1 decent assualt unit (the wracks are too small tbh but increase in size as points escalate, they are more there for T1 dark lances from their raider), the majority of my list advances pretty rapidly behind the assualt force. The reavers, if ignored will soon start suppressing vehicles, so must be dealt with, the wracks are close enough to add support if needed to the archon, hamie and wyches, who are more survivable due to their pain token, and my warriors are close by to add anti inf support, or deal with tanks. they can stay back too with the range of the splinter cannon if needed, so can handle quite a few roles. the razorwing arrives via basic reserves and tbh, tends to make a mess of what ever it shoots at.........

Applying something similar to your list............

Well I think either some wracks or wyches would be ideal. Maybe even both, but I think seperating things out a bit so if one gets taken down early, you still have other options is a good idea. Archon with the incubi for the PGL, haemi with some wyches, and some wracks would give you three targets. All of which can get the job done.

The other option you have is to bring the incubi in a turn later........ something like wyches, espeically with FNP (less uesful vs GKs tho) should be able to rock in and tie up a unit. If your incbi turn up the following turn, they can chrage in, their lack of nades make no difference, as the unit is already engaged, and they can't even be targetted......... they WILL swing that combat your way and are likely to get the pain token too.......... so there are plenty of choices there......

So you could try:

Wyches with your haemie.
Some Wracks with your archon (I'd prob still add the PGL).
Incubi on their own.

3 units on the move from T1, 2 already have at least FnP, and the incubi can then clean up what ever assualts you get going T2 with out the need for the PGL, in which case I'd put them in a raider for another lance shot T1.............

Finally, haemies are not CC beasts, but often end up heading that way. I prefer to leave mine in their transport for drive by liquifier gun shots, but if the transport is popped that is not always a choice. I always give mine a venom blade now, unless I really can't afford it, and that is rare. Those extra wounds are useful. The other benefit is if hit by S6 or 7 guns, u still have a body u can allocate those wounds to while keeping FNP, so can act as additional defence to wyches, archons, incubi, etc.......

Hope some of this helps.......

Wow! So much to digest. Thank you so much for all of the advice.

I could have sworn I referenced this, but I do have a squad of Wyches! I have 8+Hekatrix with a Haemonculus in a Raider. They have worked out well, and have earned a few vehicle kills to their name.

I actually really like the look of the Djin Blade+Blaster build. That suggests starting with two Pain Tokens for Str 4 on the charge. Ablative wounds from a Coven unit and a bonus Haemy. Incubi go straight up the middle and draw fire while Wyches try and find some vehicles to pop or some assault troops to block off. So, for instance:

Archon w/ Djin Blade, Blaster, Shadow Field, Combat Drugs
4 Grotesques w/ Liquifier
Haemonculus w/ Liquifier
Raider w/ Flickerfield
415

5 Incubi
Venom w/ Splinter Cannon
175

8 Wyches w/ Haywire, Wych Weapon
Hekatrix w/ Agonizer
Haemonculus w/ Liquifier
Raider w/ Flickerfield
278

=868 total, 632 left over for shooting

632 is a decent chunk- it lets me field my Ravager, Razorwing, second Venom, and 2-3 Warrior squads. I would prefer more so I could run a tank-hunter unit like Blasterborn, Reavers, or Scourges.

Alternately:

Archon w/ Djin Blade, Blaster, Shadow Field, Combat Drugs
8 Wracks w/ Liquifier
Haemonculus w/ Liquifier
Raider w/ Flickerfield
355

That saves...less than I thought. I'm trading 4 Wounds and 1 Toughness for 60 points and an extra Troop unit (I have not played many objective matches in my casual games, so less valuable than at a tourney). Which looks better?

Also, if my Archon, say, walks up to a transport and pops it with his Blaster in the shooting phase, can he still make an assault that turn, probably at whatever was inside?

Thanks again for all of the help- let me know which of the "ablative wound" options seem best. I will probably end up taking Incubi as my retinue versus an assaulting army, but for now I want to solve the shooting side of the equation, as that seems most popular. And, yeah, Grey Knights seem to get both for cheap from what I hear, so I'm not going to kill myself trying to break that matchuo

I would personally take the wracks if I was you, just because I'm not a fan of grots. I don't know about you but 8 wracks seems slightly excessive, I would definitely be targeting an Archon and 8 wracks over 5 incubi. Oh and in this situation I would still consider putting that PGL in the archon if he's with the wracks. I know wracks only have an initiative 4 but against normal marines you will still do a simultaneous strike which is infinitely better than going after your opponent. But that's just my thoughts.

Also in relation to your rules query, yes a unit can destroy a transport and then assault the remaining occupants. In fact a unit can destroy the transport allowing other units to then shoot at the previous occupants. This is why it is crucial to get your order if shooting correct. The only thing that can't happen in relation to shooting transports and occupants is for the unit to destroy the transport and then for that same unit to then shoot the occupants.

Oops, sry I missed the wyches in a raider thing My bad...... just digesting ur last posts and will comment.

Personaly, I love my blaster Archon as who doesn't want a stupidly high balistic skill blaster shot...... but others hate them as it changes their focus away from CC. I see both arguements, and is why I've gone Djinn blade to keep the attacks as high as possible. This does mean they can be a bit unreliable depending on drug rolls. Reroll wound, +1 st, +1 attack or a free pain token are all great..... the others less so, so u'll get something good most of the time, but when u roll 3D6 run (especially if ur running reavers as well) does feel like a waste and their combat abilities do drop considerably. When you do get the reroll wound one, boy does that make you happy

Your plan to ensure they start the game with FC would certainly mitigate that nicely.... just be aware that some times the Djinn blade doesn't play ball, and that is usually when your shadow field dies........... or at least it is for me

That is the reason I don't give mine a soul trap too, you deffo do not want to be instant deathing your self, even though I have gotten MC kills with the blaster, I just do not think it is relable enough, and too dangerous in this build (altho 7 st6 attacks is soooo tempting!).

So far, I have not used Grots. I kinda do want to try them, but for the cost (£), that 1 pose annoys me too much, so I haven't gone that route. Wracks on the other hand I do have some XP with so can comment there......

As troops with a haemie, I think the wracks are a better option over all. Cheaper, scoring and fit in venoms, but grots would work too I am sure.

What I would suggest is to try to keep your units to similar prices/power levels. This forces tougher choices for your opponent.

I'm assuming you have some raiders and venoms, etc... so will try to keep that in mind with suggestions so it fits with what you have, or can add easily with out breaking the bank......

I guess a good place to start is do you need FC to start with?

I can deffo see a good reason to do so, but personally, I don't invest in it. Similar theory to why I don't add ghost plate either, altho it is a solid investment. I will only pay so many points to a unit before it gets too bloated and means I can't take other units instead. The blanace between more units vs more toys is complex with no right answer, but for me, I try to add more units, with enough to get the job done, and try not to go too mad........

But if you do decide to go that route, this could work.

The wyches as you describe, with a heamie.
3 Wracks, venom, archon (with drugs)
5 incubi, raider.
Haemie

The 3 wrack unit is pretty much just bringing venom and pain token for the archon, but there is space for the haemie if u want to get that FC. It does however give you the option to move the haemie to the incubi, should ur archon pick up a pain token thru combat drugs, and they now have room in their raider to fit him in.

Provides a few options, and in that build you could prob ditch the PGL (might be worth keeping, as he can they join the incubi later game).

I do think the PGL is still worth it regardless, and if you have access to more raiders, I would want a bigger unit of wracks (say 5, leader and LG.. maybe scissor hand).

If you are starting with FC, those wracks will hit marines first, AND reroll wounds.... so you do deffo want them with nades...... but if only going with 3..... it may not be worth the points investment.

Now if you are adding in the PGL, and sticking your archon with the wracks, then the blaster becomes less useful. Mine works quite well, as the wyches have hay wire nades. So if he doesn't kill what he shot at (so they can charge the contents), then they can still charge in and attack with the HW nades...... this has teh bonus as well that you might immobilise or stun the target gaining you auto hitting too

None of that really works so well with wracks..... yes thay can damage AV10 with FC, but even instant hitting, u can only glance and even then, not reliably......

So if you are planning that route, I'd prob choose different wargear..... get cheaper stuff and free up points for the PGL, and just target troops and infantry.

I'm using a blast pistol and huskblade, combined with the soul trap lets me murder in close combat and also gives him the ability to pop transports or lastmen standing easily (yeah I'm looking at you space wolf lonewolfs)

You want Lonewolves to live though

Maybe meant thunder cav......

So husk blade and soul trap peeps. How do you find that works? Godo I'm guessing or you wouldnt take them so poss a silly question, but with the having to find an IC or MC to kill, do you consistently get the ST6? I guess you will have to dedicate some effort to go hunting for them, but what about guard and ... actually, I cant think of another list that has non IC HQs... altho some lone characters aren't ICs either. How does it work with them?

Also does it work with ranged shots.... I thought it did, but honestly cannot remember........

I have two Raiders and two Venoms. One Raider obviously goes to the ladies, and one Venom for the Incubi. That leaves one transport for the HQ and one for either Warriors or Trueborn- I'm leaning towards putting a 10-man Warrior squad in a big boat and giving the Archon a little chariot (Trueborn get to go on Lance duty).

Archon
4 Wracks
Venom

5 Incubi
Venom

8 Wyches
Hekatrix
Haemonculus
Raider

10 Warriors
Blaster, Spliner Cannon
Raider

The Archon plays harassment with his 18" hand cannon, which makes him still a threat if he is grounded. The Wracks play the role of "10 points-+1 wound" wargear for the Archon while also feeling no pain. The Wyches attack enemies in cover or big piles of vehicles, while the Incubi go for guys in power armor who don't feel like they need cover. If I have points, I may even throw a second Haemonculus in with the Incubi for their pain token: 3+ and Feel No Pain is pretty filthy, and was a big draw for taking the fully kitted out "command squad", but splitting the good stuff looks more flexible.

Personally, I feel like Huskblade+Soul Trap is a massive trap. To answer the question: the Soul Trap triggers on a kill, so it does appear to work at range. Hexrifle+Soul Trap Haemonculus is also a massive trap, but is also a massive troll, so it fits with the army.

I have 2 Archon configs I use:

Archon (Agonizer, Blaster, SF, Drugs) = 135
Archon (Huskblade, Soultrap, SF, Drugs) = 145

The latter is all based on CC and if I'm feeling adventurous at taking enemy ICs and MCs. The first is an all-purpose Archon to take advantage of the 18" BS7 Blaster shot while keeping the Agonizer for CC encounters. Drugs always (not IRL).

CaptainBalroga wrote:

I have a few questions about using and equipping an Archon, and I am also looking for general observations on my setup. I don't have very much experience (<10 games in this edition) so this was put together solely on speculation. I was embarrassed to have my squad charged on and beaten by Space Marines the other day (Grey Knights with power weapons and a Str 6 Inquisitor, Marines nonetheless) so I am coming here to vent my frustrations and ask for help.

Well for your setup it would work against some opponents, but not flexible enough to deal with things that would also target your unit, such as a dedicated assault unit that would be far superior than the incubi. Not to say that it is a bad combination, just a very situational one and a configuration that needs to choose its victims wisely.


Grey Knights are armed with force weapons to a man, and can boost their strength and killing output via psychic powers and also grenades. So your incubi will be dead more often than not thanks to a halberd striking at I6, even before the other nonsensical abilities of the Grey Knights that boost it up so that they can instakill your retinue. The best assault unit to go against the GRey Knights would be Wyches, as their invulnerable saves laugh at halberds and they can dish out enough damage on the same initiative or better upon the Grey Knights.


As for configurations; my Archon comes in three variants (depending on how much points I can spend). Do note I always attach my Archon to Wyches, to allow for the whole unit to become my crack assault unit. Nonetheless the Archon's role should always take advantage of its abilities and its synergy with the unit it is planted in.

[u]Type of Archons
1) Agoniser, Haywire Grenade, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs

My basic archon, which is no slouch in CC, and also allow me to bust a vehicle (particularly of the walker kind) if I have to. I tend to take this configuration if my list needs the points elsewhere.

2) Agoniser, Djinn Blade, Soul-trap, Haywire Grenade, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs

This is my preferred configuration , as she can take on many things from low-toughness horde infantry (which the Agonisers are horrible against but the djinn blade is amazing) to MC or high toughness creatures (Agonisers). Depending on the drugs and the availability of MCs and ICs running around, I would hunt them down as well and power up my djinn blade using the soul trap to allow for even more killing options. With this configuration if it goes well, I can actually march up to a Land Raider or a Dreadnought and cleave it in half and/or instakill/wound high toughness targets with impunity.

In essence, this particular archon is particularly opportunistic, as it will use the best possible weapon to kill its target.

3. Agoniser, Blaster, Djinn Blade, soul-trap, Haywire grenade, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs

This one sacrifices the amount of attacks on the agoniser, but in return gains the ability to shoot things at a far longer range with the Archon's superior BS. Otherwise it works just like #2 (with added soul-trap via shooting at lone ICs). I rarely use this Archon unless it is a 2500+ pts game.