Need help to fill the blanks - 1850 ETC

I am stuck in a constant look now... and need a new perspective... the list is for this years ETC

1850 total, standard force org chart

Here is where i am right now...

Elite - 3 Trueborn, 3 Blasters, Venom, additional Splinter cannon
Elite - 3 Trueborn, 3 Blasters, Venom, additional Splinter cannon

Troop - 5 Kabalites, 1 Blaster, Venom, additional Splinter cannon
Troop - 5 Kabalites, 1 Blaster, Venom, additional Splinter cannon
Troop - 5 Kabalites, 1 Blaster, Venom, additional Splinter cannon
Troop - 5 Kabalites, 1 Blaster, Raider, Flickerfield
Troop - 5 Wyches, HWG, shard net, Venom, additional Splinter cannon
Troop - 5 Wyches, HWG, shard net, Venom, additional Splinter cannon

Heavy - Ravager, flickerfield
Heavy - Ravager, flickerfield
Heavy - Razorwing, flickerfield, splinter cannon

All places where i can have dark lances i do. At this stage its 1462 and 19 blaster/dark lance shots

I am torn how to fill the last 400ish points.... HELP!

First thought: a big blob of (imho much needed) close combat goodness. Like the old Baron/Beasts combo.

I did consider mixing up a baron / hellion blob...

HQ - Baron
HQ - Haemonculus, shattershard
Troops - 15 Hellions, Helliarch, agoniser
Troops - 3 Wracks, raider, flickerfield
thats 535... then delete the 2 wych squads (-270)

puts it at 1727 total...

You could have more Dark Lances...with some Lanceborn!

3 Trueborn
2 Dark Lances
Raider w/ Flickerfield and/or Night Shields
146-166

After running it yesterday, dont run hellions with ago... its a waste of points... most things you're going to hit on 3's and 4's anyway... just go with a VB, or a simple power weapon... or nothing at all! My regular hellions scored more wounds on average than my helliarch did... just a way to save a couple of points.

Baron/Beasts work well, until you allocate two wounds to Baron in turn 2 and end up rolling double ones... (still cross about that...)

don't run hellions with agonizer?

you're joking.

I run two groups of hellions, each with agonizer. I can't tell you how many models i've taken down with that agonizer. Warriors, Necron lords, Lictors, Terminators..

so if you are going to run the agonizer with the hellions, don't use them against troops. hit their elites with them. they will end up getting scared every time they see the hellions coming for em.


But anyways, you can fill up your fast attack with beastmasters as much as you can. Razorwing flocks are about as fun as it gets with a ridiculous amount of throwaway wounds and if they get close enough to charge, you'll be rolling the proverbial bucket of dice, which usually translates into a lot of rending.

No, not joking in the least... Agonizers are great weapons, but they're wasted on hellions... On wyches and bloodbrides, they're great. On anything that lacks a invul save in CC and has a worse armor save than 4++, it's a huge waste of points. Against marines, you're going to be wounding on a 4+ anyway regardless, PW will wound on the same number after you get FC or if you roll +1str for drugs (unfortunately, since agos aren't poison, you dont get to reroll to wound...), and a VB will do well enough just with wound saturation, and give you reroll to wound when you get those 2+pt or +1str.

For what they do, agos cost a ton of points. To get the most out of them, use them on something that's going to be able to take a hit and give it.

I don't really like small Wycth squds. I think they need 7-9 models and a Haemonculus to fulfill their roles as tarpits. Also, you might consider adding a 3rd Trueborn unit. Other than that's I've run a similar army in tournaments, and it works pretty well. The only problem I've had is the lack of a strong close combat unit 8Wytches make good tarpits, but can hardly kill anything). Perhaps a unit of Beasts could fulfill that role?

Ruke wrote:

After running it yesterday, dont run hellions with ago... its a waste of points... most things you're going to hit on 3's and 4's anyway... just go with a VB, or a simple power weapon... or nothing at all! My regular hellions scored more wounds on average than my helliarch did... just a way to save a couple of points.

Baron/Beasts work well, until you allocate two wounds to Baron in turn 2 and end up rolling double ones... (still cross about that...)

Hellions only have S3 (the S4 comes from the Hellglaive), so you'll be wounding GEQ on 4s and MEQ on 5s. That, and you then have to deal with armour saves. Agoniser puts everything on 4s (Hellion blobs have enough attacks to get through guard blobs) and removes the issue of armour saves completely. You won't lose the +1A the Hellglaive provides either, as you'll get it from the pistol.

The only thing I would ever take over the Agoniser is a Stunclaw, and that is only if tailoring a list against BA jumpers (using the Claw to pull away priests with Hit and Run moves). Besides that, Agoniser or nothing.

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Hellions only have S3 (the S4 comes from the Hellglaive), so you'll be wounding GEQ on 4s and MEQ on 5s.

I realize that and have made that same point numerous times.

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(Hellion blobs have enough attacks to get through guard blobs)

Guard blobs maybe, but ork hordes and marines will chew through them like a knife through hot butter (thanks to their powerfists/klaws and the hellions lack of invuls... just had this scenario yesterday)... and that says nothing of termies and nobs where every model can snag a fist/klaw, or paladins, where they can equal your init...

anything that denies armour saves is great in my eyes. that alone justifies the cost.

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Guard blobs maybe, but ork hordes and marines will chew through them like a knife through hot butter (thanks to their powerfists/klaws and the hellions lack of invuls... just had this scenario yesterday)... and that says nothing of termies and nobs where every model can snag a fist/klaw, or paladins, where they can equal your init...

Well, you should not run your Hellions against these units (If they are not really weakened!) ; Hellions have 12" movement and FoF, so they can usually choose where to strike

And I agree with Sami: the agoniser is really a good option for hellions, and it is even 5 points cheaper than other ones!

That's easy to say, until you have nothing else to attack... I was having to hit at least 10 man ork squads (minimum) coming out of trukks/wagons... hellions are great units, able to hit hard and fast, break away on the enemy turn, shoot em up and go back in swinging, i'm not arguing against hellions at all, they do their job well, what im saying is that they get pain tokens so fast, and they do die so easily, that the extra points for a ago is a waste... chances are you're going to get a second pain token quickly (or start with it if you do your army right) and at that point, the extra 10pts you spent on that ago just went down the drain...

How big (or small) were your Hellion units if 10-20 boys was causing an issue? If they were all armed with pistol + CCW the 3 attacks would be painful, but you have Splinter Pods (3 shots per Hellion which ignore their armour save). You should kill an Orc for every Hellion shooting at the unit, and on the charge you have the same number of attacks (you should always get the charge off), a better armour save (just!) and importantly, will pretty much always strike first.

10 - 20 orks w/nob depending on what I had just smacked up... always got the charge and AP on the splinter pods doesnt matter when the orks are in cover... the boyz and the nob didn't cause much problems (the dread that charged in on the other hand...) and that wasn't what I was saying... what I was saying is that the agonizer was a waste of points, as the helliarch only had 3 turns (two mine, one his) he was able to use it, and by the end of turn 2 (first turn he could attack) I already had FC, and since ago doesn't allow reroll wounds (as it's not poison), and hellions die much easier than wyches the point:benefit ratio was too high to be worth it...

Ruke wrote:

Guard blobs maybe, but ork hordes and marines will chew through them like a knife through hot butter (thanks to their powerfists/klaws and the hellions lack of invuls... just had this scenario yesterday)... and that says nothing of termies and nobs where every model can snag a fist/klaw, or paladins, where they can equal your init...

Never run hellions against ork blobs like that. that's what our ridiculous amount of shooting is for. Only use the hellions against PK nobs when their bodycount is less than six, to finish the job. we're supposed to come out of nowhere and gank the crap out of them. We don't tank, we don't heal, we don't do any of that. We DPS.

The other option like I said earlier is run as many beastmasters as you can squeeze in. If you don't need them to fight tough targets and you're good at kiting, you can run all razorwing flocks and launch them against max squads of ork boyz. that many attacks on the charge, combined with rending on the wounds would make even daemonettes jealous.

Gotta work with what you have... all I had was hellions, and he had mobs of boyz...

I knew hellions would cause a stir!

I agree with Raneth, you need some sort of CC blob but i personally find that helions do not fit that role, fromy my personal experience helions die way too easily with 5+ save no ++.

I prefer beastmasters due to the fact that they give you the ++ you need, the extra wounds and the attacks (not to mention rending) that do much more than helions

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I agree with Raneth, you need some sort of CC blob but i personally find that helions do not fit that role, fromy my personal experience helions die way too easily with 5+ save no ++.

I prefer beastmasters due to the fact that they give you the ++ you need, the extra wounds and the attacks (not to mention rending) that do much more than helions

Precisely... although wyches/bloodbrides will do the job nearly as well, the entire mob has 4++ save, and can easily get fnp for the entire mob and should have little to no trouble getting fc. They cost a whole helluva lot less, too...

While i have a nice big unit of beast masters, i have found them to not perform as well as they look like they should on paper...

4 incubi with a haemonculi in venom no?

would make a solid unit for slicing blood angels

Until you run into cover...

Raneth wrote:

Until you run into cover...

WTB Lash Whip rules for Tormentor Helms.

And yes, this is the big problem with Incubi - the moment you attack something in cover they go last. Against tactical squads and the like it's not too much of a problem as the combined 3+ and FNP against a pitiful number of incoming attacks isn't too much to deal with. BA jumpers however have twice as many attacks if you charge them, making it far more likely that you'll lose models before you strike.

That, and most BA players know to avoid Incubi like the plague. If you can position them so they have no choice but to assault them then well done. If not, expect to be chasing BA around the table and initiating the charge on them.