Old vs. New - Battle of the Haemonculi

Greetings and welcome to Battle 7 of Old vs. New.

The Haemonculus has always been an enjoyable staple of our army. A brief reference to 'Coven armies' in the original codex led to people building them so often that by the time the new codex arrived the fleshsculptors were given a proper treatment with official troop selections and a deeper connection within fluff to the ways of Commoragh.

However, are these new Haems with all their pain token tech equal to the old school horrors that first spawned them?
Can the rotting old originals possibly hold a candle to the flashy and potent new Haems?

Let's find out!

Slot and Cost

As usual, the first basic question is - did they change the cost of the model, and is the model still in the same slot of the codex?

Both Haem entries are HQ selections.
Both allow you to buy 3x Haems within one HQ slot.

The Old Haems came in at a shockingly affordable 25 points each
New Haems tip the scales at 50 points each, and cost a whopping 80 for the 'Ancient' variety.

I hope they do something amazing to justify costing twice as much.

Advantage? - Old!

Stats

This should be an easy one to compare. Did they take away or add to the stat line?

The Old Haem

WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
4	4	3	4	2	4	2	8	5+

The New Haem

WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
4	4	3	4	2	4	2	8	6+

So, they cost twice as much and their stats are identical...oh, wait, except that the New ones have a lesser armor save.
Yay?
Better hope the wargear is bacon and chocolate coated is all I'm saying.

Advantage? - Old!

Wargear

What good are stats without awesome weapons to use them with?

New

Okay, it's time to talk about the big one - they start with a Pain Token (and consequently - FNP)
That's pretty gul'durn amazing right there. Now, as an individual boost for the Haem itself it's...moderate at best. What it really serves as is a massive force multiplier to whatever unit he is placed with. Everyone and their uncle uses this guy to make their army better, and he fills that purpose ably.

What else does he do? Well, he lets us access a lot of Haem only and Arcane Wargear that is...a bit of a mixed bag.

There is the Liquifier, one of the best flamers in the game, and it is awesome.
For assault he has the V.Blade, Scissorhands, or Agoniser, also both amazing tools of war.
For odd support there is the Webway portal, a commonly used item, or the deadly Shattershard - a better Liquifier.
And then it starts to go...downhill. A lot of the other gear is lackluster at best or actually just downright not good. Yeah, you can tell me about how cool a Hexrifle is all day long, and I'll agree...the fluff is awesome, but the rules are bleh in a hat. Still, there are a lot of options out there for New Haems to allow them to help whatever unit they are paired with.


Old

Old Haems are easily competitive for amount of wargear options open to them, probably even more so than their New brethren. From being on Jetbikes to wielding anti-psyker wargear that actually worked, the new Haems had toys aplenty - let's touch on a few that people are likely to remember fondly.

Weapons they suffer a bit on;
Destructor (this is also known as the Liquifier...seriously, same exact thing, different name.)
Stinger Pistol, Scissorhand are there and available. But they couldn't take Aggies or power weapons. (that said, there Scissorhands cost 5 points each...)
I've been over the Terrorfex before, but imagine a blast weapon that caused leadership penalties instead of wounds and recall pure awesome.
Crucible of Malediction - you know our joke of anti-psyker tech, that derp thing that hits in like a 12" radius? How would you like one with infinite range that kept targeting until something died or every psyker on the table passed? Yeah...
Plus, the usual chatter about giving Hellion Skyboards or Reaver Jetbikes to them - seriously now, why did that ever go away?

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This is an interesting one to consider. The Old Haems have better wargear options, really, there is no argument that is sane to say otherwise.

But what the new ones have is that Pain Token as force multiplier, and that is HUGE.

So, it comes down to better overall wargear, or one really standout effect...this is a silly close call but I have to say;.

Advantage? - New!


Face to Face in Battle!

For starters, the usual play of Haems always was to support a unit via a flamer blast or pain token or whatnot - but a support unit battle will be boring. So, I decided to have fun with this one and make it a 3 v. 3 match, because, hey, they're Haems and I can buy three in a slot. Let's see what we do for the spread as we create 3 man wound allocation beatstick Haem units and have them smash into each other a bit;

3x New Haems - 1 = Scissorhands and Liquifier, 1 = Agoniser and Shattershard, 1= Stinger Pistol and Power Weapon -- 225 points

3x Old Haems - Two have Destructors and one a Stinger Pistol, all have Combat Drugs, and Scissorhands, also they have a Crucible of Malediction just because that's a common upgrade for them. -- 220 points


New Haems have the Charge

With Furious Charge they get +1 Str and +1 Init giving them first swings.

Power weapon - 4 attacks - 2 hit - 1.33 wound - no saves
Scissorhand - 5 attacks - 2.5 hit - 2.21 wound - 1.4 after saves
Aggie - 4 attacks - 2 hit - 1 wounds - no saves

3.63 wounds - not shabby.

Old Haems respond;

3 w. Scissorhands - 12 attacks - 6 hit - 5.5 wound - 2.08 after saves and FNP

2nd round - Old Haems get Drugs.
They take re-roll misses and Strike First

Old Haems swing first - 12 attacks - 9 hits - 8.75 wound - 3.64 after saves and FNP, at least one New Haem is likely dead at this stage just because it's harder to control the wound allocation of spam attacks as opposed to power weapon attacks.

New Haems respond
Power weapon - 3 attacks - 1.5 hit - .75 wound - no saves
Scissorhand - 4 attacks - 2 hit - 1.77 wound - 1.18 after saves
Aggie - 3 attacks - 1.5 hit - .75 wounds - no saves

Depending who is left alive this has some varied effects, especially with the power weapons now down to .75 on the wounds inflicted chart. By the look of it this fight could go either way depending on a few variables I'm too lazy to check.

Old Haems have the Charge
They take re-roll misses and Strike First with their drugs.

15 attacks - 11.25 hit - 10.93 wound - 4.55 dead.

And that's pretty huge right out of the gate, as there is assuredly a dead Haem already.

New Haems respond
Power weapon - 3 attacks - 1.5 hit - .75 wound - no saves
Scissorhand - 4 attacks - 2 hit - 1.77 wound - 1.18 after saves
Aggie - 3 attacks - 1.5 hit - .75 wounds - no saves

Depending on who survives they manage some damage, but there are still 3 Haems standing across from them any way you cut it, and those three will do 2 more wounds next turn, basically assuring the death of another New Haema nd also assuring the win.

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Old Haems basically are assured win if they charge, New Haems are probably around 60% win if they have the charge. Not much of a question there for advantage. We could work around with it a bit (give New Haems Ancients, give Old Haems Jetbikes, try to work in shooting results) but clearly on the assault the Old Haems have a huge advantage and receiving the assault they can do better than New can manage...gawds I love Old Scissorhands

Also, as far as shooting goes the advantage is a little debatable. New can maybe do better with really expensive one shot items - but Old have more reliable tools, a lot of pinning tech, and can also afford to take Jetbikes (+1 Str, +1 Toughness, a splinter rifle, and increased movement) all while still costing basically the same as the New Haem.

Easy call here for me.

Advantage? - Old!

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So that's my breakdown.

It's odd, because going into this thing I honestly was expecting the New Haems to do better than they managed. At this stage when you consider stats, cost, ability on the battlefield to kill and survive being killed...man, the Old ones stand head and shoulders above the competition.

This really is "better unit" vs. "Pain Token" And the crazy thing is, I'm still leaning towards voting New right now because...oh my gawd - FNP Wyches are amazing. It's odd though, because I'm sorta more voting for the overal Sharing the Pain Army rule than I'm voting for what the New Haem actually can do on the battlefield. It's kind of a strategy/synergy vote more than a clear cut 'this is better' vote. and I've often debated if I should be voting for Army Wide rules or not...

I think the basic answer for me is this - back in the day I *often* fielded Haems.
Nowadays I *almost always* field Haems. I seriously have only 2 or so common lists that lack them.

That probably says it all, even though the numbers and information mocks that decision.

That's my call - what's yours?

The Pain tokens are SO huge. It really is the deal breaker for me.

I vote for the new. The old one might have better stats, but the new one gives my Wytches fnp. If I wanted a killy HQ I would just take an Archon. The new Haemies fill an important role in the army by making our fragile units less fragile.

Good break down as usual. I do think tho a lot of these compares end up coming down to 2 real pros and cons.

Old wargear list vs pain tokens and poison splinter weapons.

Wargear list is very old school and is history now, most armies miss their wargear lists, de especially. But almost all the benefits of the old dex are directly linked to the excellent old war gear lists.

I like the old dex but wouldn't go back, pain tokens, scoring wracks and splinter weapon buffs are huge, but will never be clearly visible in a unit compare. Not to mention supersonic , etc....

Its hard for me to say this, but I have to go with new as well. As with thor I almsot always fielded atleast 2 haemie last codex for the destructor and scissorhands on jetbikes (and awesome crucible) to give my reavers an extra punch in CC or a really nice flame template. Now adays I run them just with a liquifer and flame out of a transport. Same idea... different concept. The only major difference other than the pain token is the cost, which sometimes hurts, but its the price to pay for an awesome army wide ability.

Fatuous wrote:

I like the old dex but wouldn't go back

I would - I easily think the old Dex is just as competitive.

@SR - yeah, this one was very tight and odd to call. I also used to run Flamers in boats back in the day (but with Scissorhands because...hey, for 5 points, why not?) But it was very much just as a support piece (sometimes would assault if fleet not needed, otherwise would stay back) Nowadays there are whole other reasons to take that build and the flaming/assault possibilities are the secondary ones, not primary. Odd

I like the new ones for their Pain tokens. Being able to choose Wracks as Troops is a pretty big deal in the right lists as well. To me, this one's easy.

Vote: NEW

[quote="Thor665"]

Fatuous wrote:

I like the old dex but wouldn't go back

I would - I easily think the old Dex is just as competitive.

While I wouldnt totally disagree with you there, I wouldnt go back because of the simple fact that baring Mandrakes, everything in our book can be competitive. Unlike the old one where it was the same Archon/Incubi, Wych, Warrior, Ravager with some extras or Wych Lord, Warrior, Wych troops, Ravager combos...

Competitive Lelith was pretty nice too, as was the ability to do a bike theme that didn't suck. Also, Old Scourges were competitive in 4th, they're not intrinsically bad, it's just 5th edition kind of wuss slapped them. Talos were just as competitive in the Old Dex also.

Quote :

I easily think the old Dex is just as competitive

Really? My understanding was that almost all of the stuff that REALLY made the old dex competitive and really awesome became universally shared between almost all races (like the ability to run/fleet).

That being said, I'll have to cast my vote for the new... It's the most readily available pain token, and the cheapest WWP system around, and those things are amazing. When you look at it, the homun went from being a primary assault unit to a primary support unit, and to me that means that at the end of the day it's not really a fair matchup, so I have to decide which one supports the current dex... the one I have to use... better, and in that respect its the new.

I know that it's a bit off topic, but what made the scourges better in 3rd and 4th than they are now?

Ruke wrote:

Really? My understanding was that almost all of the stuff that REALLY made the old dex competitive and really awesome became universally shared between almost all races (like the ability to run/fleet).

Go read the Wych battle again, then go read the Archon/Wych Lord battles. Take a note of what Wych weapons and the old combat drugs did to battles. Fleet was pretty awesome, but let me assure you it was hardly the best tool in the arsenal.

Ruke wrote:

I know that it's a bit off topic, but what made the scourges better in 3rd and 4th than they are now?

They changed the damage tables. Back in the day vehicles were death traps and it was pretty easy to glance a vehicle to death. Scourges could DS in behind a Rhino/Razorback/Chimera/what have you and unleash Splinter Cannons into it, wrecking the transport and mauling the unit inside all for an incredibly affordable price.

Also, with the larger infantry theme of 4th edition the Scourges equipped with S.Cannons were useful starting on the board and sniping away at exposed infantry and could actually do what they were supposed to do - serve as mobile heavy weapon support.

Then in 5th...not so much anymore.

XD I'll hold off on persuing this point further until the battle of scourges...

As a side note, votes are overwhelmingly in favor of new.

what i really miss is being able to block the access points on vehicles then blow them apart and effectively instant kill the unit inside.

back on topic i like the new rules (even though they now take more of a backseat) but i prefer the old models

Thor665 wrote:

Competitive Lelith was pretty nice too, as was the ability to do a bike theme that didn't suck. Also, Old Scourges were competitive in 4th, they're not intrinsically bad, it's just 5th edition kind of wuss slapped them. Talos were just as competitive in the Old Dex also.

lol well I dont think any old DE players would ever forget about the awesomeness that Lelith was Its like if baron came with a power weapon also +1 on the bike theme... I of all people felt that loss.

The problem with scourges were that they took a heavy last dex, and even in 4th with the infantry heavy armies, Dissies were by far a better option. Talos has been a fire magnet since the dex came out. I can see his competitive nature, but with the nerf of them gaining cover that came from 5th and the prevailence of AT weaponry which doubles as anti_MC weaponry, he has lost something in translation.

Lets wait to talk about the differences in the codexs till their respective threads come up. So far we have had alot of wins from the old, but Im sure the new will pick up some when they get to the stuff that was terrible in the last book. Heck, I even think new Mandrakes will win their respective battle, which is really sad.

Actually new and old are currently tied for wins - I suspect this one will be a New victory though.

The Incubi battle is a lot less clear in my mind which way it will go.

What? is my vote page stuck or something, cause right now it's showing me 1 old : 14 new

This one is really hard for me. But in my mind it boils down to what you want to use your Haemonculus for. Personally, if I wanted a killy HQ, I'd take an Archon/Dracon in the old dex. Whereas, in the new dex, with Pain Tokens, Haemonculi get a new level of support ability, which is very valuable. So it's a very close tie, but for me, personally, I'd be leaning towards the new.

I voted new. They've got a pain token ánd make Wracks scoring... Awesome.

Raneth wrote:

I like the new ones for their Pain tokens. Being able to choose Wracks as Troops is a pretty big deal in the right lists as well. To me, this one's easy.

Vote: NEW

My sentiments exactly

I think if I could only take new Haemonculi as a locked-in sergeant for Wych squads, I would still value them higher than the old ones. The benefits are that good, and seeing the look on my opponent's face as the FNP negates an entire assault is to savored like a fine wine...

Sorry, what were we talking about? Haemys or something? You pay more and you get more nowadays. That's sort of a rare thing- either it's pay 3 points less and have a lateral change, or all your Blasters cost 5 more points and don't change a bit.

PAIN TOKENSSSSSSSSSSS
NO PAIN, NO GAIN
THEREFORE, MORE PAIN - MORE GAIN

This might be our most lopsided battle since the Vehicle one - I may try to get a new poll up tomorrow.

OLD!

Old Haemonculi all the way.
They could be mouted on Jetbikes for Khaine's sake.

New all the way. They may be inferior statistically to the old, but the PT and the way it buffs sections of the army is a clear winner.

NEW, who doesnt want a 4+ invunerable save on a fragile unit? Sure the old had a better armour save but PAIN TOKENS this is the swinging point for me.