GW Pricing Discussion

As a community, I wanted to know what you all thought and felt about the latest price increases and pricing in general.

Will you as a result buy less or stop altogether? How about jumping ship?

Sky's story.... I've never been under any illusions, since I started as a kid I always knew it was an expensive hobby and it always will be. Since I started earning my own money I have lived to my means as most do, that means if I get paid xyz and I don't need z to pay for c then if I want something, I'll buy it.

I'm lucky in respect that most of my Dark Eldar collection is near enough complete but the prospect of starting another army for me is starting to look daunting, however as I said, if I want something and have the realistic funds, I will buy it.

Jumping ship? I wouldn't say I am interested in the wargaming hobby at all, only the GW hobby. I'm not stupid, there's loads of other games out there with great looking minis and cool ideas, I just love the systems and lore that GW have been building since before I was born. I LOVE my Dark Eldar, why would I want to collect Cryx or whatever they're called?

I would probably concentrate on Terrain building and maybe some of the DE items here and there, luckily i already have core of DE army.

But when im looking at prices i can be sure that it is becoming too much, the price have cross certain barrier in my mind. Before i was able to order GW stuff from online shops at big discount like 17%, now they GW closed that option and they raised prices. FLGS also sells for more then GW prices.

I probably wont start another army.

I even think i will have to concede my Apoc plans.


Pricing model of GW is basically like this - they dont really care how much does individual item cost, but rather they are aiming at our free money that we have when we pay our need and take away something for savings. So probably someone there decided that the average amount of that free money rise at their customer base.

If you are following their ocassional marketing materials you will see that their model of customer is a kid who pays for his army with his parents money, you can see this at every single advertisment material you have from GW, it adresses them.

One of the main big words for their selling managers are *recruiting* so basically it appears that they considers new customers (young kids) a priority, cause if they buy new army it will bring em more money then on average then some old customer who already have it.

So how does this connect to the topic - well their pricing doesnt really connect to rising expenses or inflation or whatever in a way like say food or other expendables are.

Does it suit me? Well, nope. It does cost too much, and gaming for me has become really less important then painting, and i dont really need GW for this. And i have less and less time for hobby. So my course of action - paint what i have, play with it, maybe pick up some Special Character or another squad for 2k point army. Thats it.

for me the annual increase from GW has become a joke actually. They are sitting on a gold mine of potential earnings, but their stubbornness and complete lack of interest to expand hurts them in the long run. Im not even a business major, and I can tell you their business model is complete BS. That being said they know they are a "nitch in a nitch" group, and dont want to threaten their crown as the king of that nitch group. They claim the increase every year is because of price of goods, and while oil prices do effect plastic, we all know they do it to increase profit margins.

That being said, they are also stuck up about being the only guy on the block. Sure they are other games around, but they arent up to the popularity of GW. That being said Warmahordes and FoW are slowly but suely growing in sales, and companies like CoolMinisorNot and Malenfaux (forget whats the actual company name) are starting up their own games as well. GW needs to change its business model and fast, and just increasing their prices to try and increase their profits is going to destroy their older gamer base.

The sad part the shift wouldnt be that hard to do. Change your marketing campaign to take in both kids and older players. Push your employees to actually spread knowledge about the game, not worry about how many core sets they sell. Find ways to decrease costs of manufacturing, not increase them with stuff like Fail Cast. Figure out what is wrong with the process, not just replace anything for the next year. Expand your markets, dont bleed them dry like in Australia and Japan. Sell your IP!!!!! And to failure of compainies like THQ [Im not saying I dont like Relic and their games, but THQ has shown to pull some terrible decisions, its sad to say but they should start trying the other big 3 (EA, Activison, Ubisoft, or heck, even Namco-Bandai)]

All of this is business 101, and yet it seems like every marketer and board director at GW skipped that day (or maybe was painting their minis, because as we all know GW is run by old gamers now) They have an amazing product, but this "we are a model company first, and a gaming company second" is complete BS and they know it. They are just too chicken to try anything new.

I have to think that GW is approaching a tipping point. Young kids (and their parents) cannot afford these prices to get into this game now, and even gainfully employed adults are having a hard time. Yes, many of us are horribly addicted, but as these increases continue to outpace any sort of economic reality, more and more of us will fall by the wayside.

There is no rational basis for these increases - they are higher than inflation, they do not match currency differentials, they are not consistent across the board, and as happened last year with the Spring DE releases, they are being applied this year to Necron items (among other things) that were just released two months ago. If you adjust the price of a new product by more than 5% only two months after release, then you are either an idiot or greedy.

GW has had two good years with the release of WFB 8th ed. and the Storm of Magic campaign with its amazing models. They also knocked it out of the park with DE and to a lesser degree, Necrons. This year is 40K 6th ed., which can only be a success, and either this year or next will see a new Beakie codex, which is their bread an butter. But they cannot keep this level of success going forever. They don't have enough material to make such big splashes each and every year, they seriously damaged themselves with Tyranid players, and there is the ongoing issue of Failcast, which wouldn't surprise me if I was told that at least 50% of the product is faulty and needs to be replaced for free.

My subscription copy of WD consistently arrives in the mail one week before the next issue appears for sale in local stores. Do I live in a yurt on the Mongolian steppe, or in a major global economic centre?

My situation - I am a professional librarian with many years of experience. I earn a good salary and have a secure job, but nobody becomes a librarian to get rich. My wife is in a similar position. We have two young kids, one of whom need extra help at school. We have just sold our house to move to a more expensive area where we hope we can the help our kid needs in a particular school, but that means a bigger mortgage and private-school fees on top of everything else.

Priorities.

I have been in this hobby for some 5-6 years now. I have three moderately-sized, basically complete armies and have half-started another. My son has two more, complete enough for his purposes. I will slowly acquire a few more items to finish my newest army, but it is as much for modelling and painting as for playing, so its not exactly a 'must-finish' scenario.

I don't have any other hobbies, addictions, vices, etc., and I am not interested in any other gaming systems. So in that respect, continuing with 40K is quite reasonable, considering the enjoyment and relaxation I get out of the hobby as well as the games. But apart from a small number of new flyers as they appear and the new 6th ed. rulebook, I don't see myself buying anything else for the next year at least. And what I do purchase will come from 2nd-hand sites like Craigslist and e-Bay, or online bitz suppliers.

As Shadows Revenge states, it wouldn't take much to turn this situation around and achieve wide-spread, sustainable growth for all. Essentially, rational business decisions a high-schooler could make and proper respect for your customer base. But I just don't see that happening at time in the foreseeable future.

I'll be buying two boxes of scourges and the 6th edition starter set and then I am done with buying GW models (unless there is something totally worth the $$$).

I feel saddened by the price hike since I want to have reasons to like 40k but GW is making it harder. 40k is no longer my main wargame but I do enjoy there models and fluff. The Price hike isn't going to stop me from playing from time to time but I don't have a reason to want to make it my main wargame when I feel there's little to no tactics involved (hope 6th is more tactically fun and it's my opinion.)

40k is competing with a lot of my hobbies right now like warmahordes, infinity, malifaux, skiing, golf, gun shooting, MtG, RPGs, movies, and video games. GW just isn't giving much of a reason to really want to focus on there game right now. I do have a sliver of hope that GW just goes awesome and theirs a big boom of people playing there game and such.

I've been playing GW games off and on for 20 years, and I fully expect to continue playing (and buying) even as their prices increase. For me the main appeal is the fluff and the models, with actually playing the games as secondary.

Yes, it's an expensive hobby, but most hobbies are big time and money sinks. For me hobby money choices go between the expensive ones: GW and Lego, and the inexpensive ones: Tabletop RPGs, G.I. Joe toys, and video games*. I used to play several CCGs, but those make GW look like a bargain.

*I'm one of those people who never buys a video game with a year of its release, with the exception of World of Warcraft expansions - and at $12 a month and a $40 expansion every two years, that's cheap. Otherwise I won't pay more than $20 for a game or $150 for a console, and only buy a new console every 3-5 years.

Sky Serpent wrote:

[...] I've never been under any illusions, since I started as a kid I always knew it was an expensive hobby and it always will be. [...]

Exactly! Furthermore, I don't see why people seem to expect their hobby to be an exception to the ultimate trend that everything gets more expensive as time goes by.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't agree with every increase of prices. However, I have to admit, I don't care that much anyway. At least it's not an influential factor for me as long as the price increases are once per year and stay in the same percentage range. Thus, no need to adapt hobby-wise on my side.

I've been in this hobby nearly 20 years, and I've seen plenty of price hikes in that time believe me.

It's an expensive hobby there's no doubt about it, but the way I look at it, a £31 Ravager will keep me entertained for a lot longer than an equivalent amount of beer/video games/blu-rays. My next project is likely to be necrons and I have to say I'm really pleased that they've doubled up most of the basic units into plastic kits when they could conceivably have done deathmarks etc in finecast.

I also happen to know that GW plough a lot of money into research into technology etc, to make their casting processes better, the plastics these days are a lot more creative and versatile than when I started, when a standard box of skaven clanrats gave you ten models all exactly the same!

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there'll always be price rises, and the time that you dedicate to models is much better value than a lot of pastimes. As such I'm not going to stop collecting, though I will be selling some of my old stuff to help fund new projects (bye bye raven guard)

The_Burning_Eye wrote:

I also happen to know that GW plough a lot of money into research into technology etc, to make their casting processes better, the plastics these days are a lot more creative and versatile than when I started, when a standard box of skaven clanrats gave you ten models all exactly the same!

Agreed, and I think part of the reason for the negative reaction to finecast is that GW's plastics just keep getting better and better. Is there anyone here that doesn't wish that Grotesques had been a plastic kit that built 3 models and had lots of optional bits like the Talos/Cronos?

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I guess what I'm trying to say is that there'll always be price rises, and the time that you dedicate to models is much better value than a lot of pastimes. As such I'm not going to stop collecting, though I will be selling some of my old stuff to help fund new projects (bye bye raven guard)

I never sell anything (still have all my vintage toys), but yeah, a realistic appraisal of how much money (and more importantly, time) I can devote to hobbies has prevented me from starting the many other armies I want to collect, or developing a proper Battletech collection. I have found that a good rule to go by is neever to have more than one project each for two games going at once, and no starting a new project until an existing one is at a satisfactory level that I can leave it as-is for at least a year.

Then this past weekend I got sucked back into papercrafting after being clean for 20 years. Stupid World Works even got me to buy a cutting machine... I'm trying to justify it as part of my upcoming RPG campaign. Yeah, that's the ticket...

I already left a lot of expensive hobbies because a lack of interest(card games, comic collecting) and the money that I used to spend there are now invested in GW games. I play both Fantasy and 40K and much of their Specialist games.

That said I am getting increasingly annoyed by their prices which are just insane. Not just the prices in themselves but how they will scare off potential new customers and alienate veterans. The only reason I stick around is that I already invested so much and I just love the models and fluff but I already find I can only buy something once every three months or so whilst I'd happily buy more if my wallet allowed it. This hobby keeps me sane as I am disabled and it gives me something to do and look forward to after being in the hospital. Cannot wait to get home to finish that squad!
From the nine armies I had I went down to three per system(Fantasy and 40K) a few years back and now two and I can imagine only having one really soon. I have lots of time to actually get so much done(do not envy me because I'd rather trade for less time and better health) but I just cannot see how anyone could afford it anymore, heck I know folks whom cannot even afford to keep up their only army and GW expects to attract new customers!?

I am willing to save up and pay for their plastics which have improved tremendously, the kits we see today weren't possible a few years ago BUT also increasing the price on Failc...pardon Finecast miniatures is nuts. If you know a product is flawed and you still need to sort a lot of issues you do not raise the freaking price!
I completely agree with Shadows Revenge that their business model bites and it is sad because we all love the hobby and would like a future for it but if they continue like this they will ruin themselves.

GW prices are far too high and are ever on the increase not to mention the ludicrous 20% V.A.T..
I'd rather eBay it for usually just above half the price. There is just no justification for what costs them pennies to produce and post to charge £60 for a starter set, much less £10.50 for an individual blister pack.
And they've never had a sale to date

Kcharranovus Grim wrote:

And they've never had a sale to date

Beg to differ. Granted it's very rare, but I used to work at Warhammer World a dozen years ago, and I remember spending hours stickering up stock for a big sale. Store openings used to get 3 for 2 offers too, though I've not seen anything advertised in that regard for years.

i mostly get stuff either through trades or online auctions, or convert/build it myself.

I play other games, because I like variety too, I may like the setting and mini's of GW, but it's not the only game in town,
I go through phases of time where I might focus on another game for a time, then swich back to GW as my main focus, price hikes get too annoying, I take a break, just get the occasional unit when I find them on ebay or mnanage to have a little extra money, and focus on my rezzers for malifaux, or work on another game that got my interest

Sorry for the Necromancy, but I think its important to put some of this is perspective
I started GW 17 years ago.

Back then, prices were, well, I'll go get white dwarf and see.
WD196, April 1996 at a guess.

Warhammer 40k was £40, Dark Millenim, the psycic power supplement was £20.
So right away, you are at £60, compared with £61.50 today.

Now, you did get a mini army list for everyone in that, which was roughly two pages of A4 per army.
You got 40 identical gretchin with autoguns, 20 identical orks, a picture of an ork dreadnought on card, two identical space marine sergeants with BP/CS, two identical space marine rocket launchers, and 16 identical marines, two with flamers and 14 with bolters.

Compare that with 5 Terminators two are duplicated, a Tactical Squad not sure about duplicates, three bikes, and two characters for the space marines, so as many models, but better models, and more variety.
Now, you dont get 60 chaos guys, you get 28, but the models are far better.

You also get some card terrain in the 2nd edition, which is frankly naff

So, on price, old and new 40k are equal, on quantity, old 40k wins, on quality, new 40k wins.

Army books
Angels of Death, £12.
Ok, here old 40k is miles better, the book is more than twice the size, for £8 less, however, quite a lot of that is just the stock codes to order things. So actually, a 60% increase over 17 years is not bad, petrol is up 60% in the 7 years since I started driving.
Again, I'm not prepared to call that one way of the other.

Today,
Captain Chenkov, £6.65
Then
Captain Chenkov, £5

A 33% increase. Again, thats over 17 years, historicaly you should be expecting 400% over 20 years.
UK minimum wage is up 47% in the last ten years.

A land speeder and a dreadnought were £18 and £20, yep, speeders are up 50p in seventeen years, and dreads are up £20.

Dont get me wrong, its not all sweetness and light, the predator was £15 not £35, but you didnt get anything like what you get now.

Eldar Guardians were £1.25 and guardian jetbikes were £5
A box of four guardians is £6 today, up £1, and a bike is £8, up £3.

Again, these are SEVENTEEN YEARS of price increases.

A Terminator was £4, today £5.60.
Except for the Cyclone, who was £5.

Snotling Pump wagon was £10!

So, there we are, some facts from a long fang who's actually been around for more than half white dwarfs life, and half his own

Oh bugger, white dwarf was £2.99, and was orders of magnitude better than todays £5.50 version.

I'll agree that some of these price increases are not all too high, some are in fact very low and I didn't expect that.

But, I have to agree with the others that the price rises and especially the prices of new releases are increasingly worrying to me and my bank account. I have 1 40k army and 2 for fantasy, all moderately sized but far from complete as I like to swith projects form time to time to get to paint something different.

I'd like to put up a price comparison of things I noticed in my 5-6 years in the hobby.

First: After a year of me being into the hobby a GW store opened in my city, there was a sale there selling 5 blisters for a set price equal to around 3 single purchases. Good deal. I haven't seen anythign like that after that one day. They're not even reducing starter set of the last edition in price to get them out of stock.

Individual prices:
I used to pay 6,95 EUR or 7,95 EUR for a metal spellsinger and thought that was already quite expensive when you consider it's one single miniature of 2" height at max.

Now the finecast version costs 15,50 EUR which is about twice as much. For the same model in some crappy new material that melts and breaks as it sees fit (yeah, I don't like it, but I digress, just look at the price)

Codex books: Were 17,95 EUR when I started and even though they were not hardbacks, I think the increase to 39 EUR for the new releases is more than astonishing. If you don't like to compare that, well, the old softcovers still rose to 26 EUR, same product and producing it has not gotten more expensive other that inflation which we all have to deal with.

Then look at the new Tau releases: Riptide is about the size of a Nemesis Knight as I've seen it so far, yet it is around 23 EUR more expensive... that's 65 EUR for a single model. Or the new broadside. Oh, you want to fill your heavy support with these? 3x3 suits is 360 EUR... who the hell can pay that? Now if I weren't a poor student and had a good wage, maybe I could, but I still wouldn't see the point in it. Ok, it's high quality, but that's still close to 400 EUR for 9 plastic models... I just don't see how people who are all new to the hobby are going to deal with this sort of costs. Even as a veteran I have problems and scour third party retailers and ebay wherever possible when I need something.

And that is in conclusion bad news for GW because I can't be the only one who is bugged by that.


On a sidenote: I agree about the white dwarf, haven't bought one in years and from looking at it in the GW store, I absolutely don't regret it.

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First: After a year of me being into the hobby a GW store opened in my city, there was a sale there selling 5 blisters for a set price equal to around 3 single purchases. Good deal. I haven't seen anythign like that after that one day.

I remember when GW did "sales", they were a disaster.
That really was the low point of the hobby.
Mid 90's, I remember the sales, buy two get one free on anything, I went in to Games Workshop on hobby night (just one night, at manchester, the flagship store) and I was the only person.
Cheaper, maybe, but it was not a better time, certainly not for me, it was a retail outlet, not a hobby shop.

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Individual prices:
I used to pay 6,95 EUR or 7,95 EUR for a metal spellsinger and thought that was already quite expensive when you consider it's one single miniature of 2" height at max.
Now the finecast version costs 15,50 EUR which is about twice as much. For the same model in some crappy new material that melts and breaks as it sees fit (yeah, I don't like it, but I digress, just look at the price)

Some of the fine cast changes have been a bit OTT, I'll give you that, certainly for HQs, but its far from across the board.

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Riptide is about the size of a Nemesis Knight

I thought it was more like Stompa sized?

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Oh, you want to fill your heavy support with these? 3x3 suits is 360 EUR... who the hell can pay that? Now if I weren't a poor student and had a good wage, maybe I could, but I still wouldn't see the point in it.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but thats nothing new. GW has *always* been expensive.
I think the original thunderhawks were £300, each.

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I just don't see how people who are all new to the hobby are going to deal with this sort of costs.

But thats just it, they'll deal the same way they always did, proxy, play small games, save up.
There never been a time when a blood claw with a saturday job could buy a 2000pt army in a month, theres just not.

To be fair, I'm kind of at my GW peak, I'm in an LTR, dont have kids, dont "go out", so my "personal budget" is a riptide a week. But I remember back when it was "cheap" using a Wood Elf Warhawk rider as my high elf prince on great eagle, my sea guard were just half and half archer and spearmen ect.

I'll give you that about the sales, I didn't experience them in person, still I actually don't see why havings something such as sales every now and then or even just before a new product hits (e.g. new starter kit) and being a hobby store are mutually exclusive.

I've seen the Riptide, it is around the same size as an NDK, not a stompa, those are far bigger.

I've also always been fine with a hobby being expensive, but recently I think it's getting rather excessive. Again I'm focusing this on blisters and new releases mostly since they seem to go up in price quickest..

GWs target group is shifting towards younger players, possibly even school kids - this is true looking at game and model design at least. Such horrendous prices put new customers off just as a matter of fact, they might not even have anything to proxy, hell they might not even know about proxy or simply don't want to. Of course I'll find my way around everything, I always will. But not everyone will be able or willing to do the searching and tinkering involved to get everything a different way, scratch built or simply at a discount and this is going to make GWs customer base narrower.

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still I actually don't see why havings something such as sales every now and then or even just before a new product hits (e.g. new starter kit) and being a hobby store are mutually exclusive.

Sales generaly come in two types.
Selling "old stock", and fake sales.
GW doesnt have old stock like a clothes shop does, wracks cant be in last seasons style, or shorts in september.

Fake Sales would be "Riptide RRP £100, sale price £65"

That said, I'd like to buy up the old codexs / army lists for fluff and collectable purposes, but from GWs perspective, they would probably rather sell one full priced than three at a discount before pulping.
They do sell off the old starter kits, not sure how much for.

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I've seen the Riptide, it is around the same size as an NDK, not a stompa, those are far bigger.

Fair enough, I figured it was huge

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GWs target group is shifting towards younger players, possibly even school kids

Again, I dont think its shifted much
There are more adult players now than I remember when I was younger, there are just more players.
Theres certainly a preponderance of kids with wealthy Dads whos mothers drop them of at GW and go shoppings, but that has just always been the case

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Such horrendous prices put new customers off just as a matter of fact

Some yes, but I dont believe any more today than last year, 5 years ago, or ten years ago

Well, to confirm either standpoint we'd need some actual data, especially with the age of players.

When it comes to target group I think I do have a point though. I talked to a GW store manager some time ago about design philosophies and some general stuff and while I agree that he as a store manager doesn't know much, he certainly gets info from his bosses what the target group is and how he should do his business.

As an example I'd like to take the daemonette models from the Chaos Daemon range, yes I'm sure you remember the boobies and general nakedness. Then look at the new kits that look a lot less sexually appealing, even though they still incorporate some old design elements of the "seducer daemon" models. This new design, he claimed, is due to the (at least partial) shift from adult gamers to kids - getting them into the hobby, not necessarily keeping them in, but that's another story - the reasoning was, that parents would not like to see their kids work with models of more than half naked females. There even was a course the employees had to take on how to play pickup games using less violent language to explain the game, so that the parents are pleased.

I'll give you though that the targeted audience is not entirely the reached audience, so you still have a point.


On the topic of sales:
Yeah, fakes sales like in the electronics and clothing business (yay, completely fictional crossed out prices to make me feel better) would not be of much use. But I do think clearing out old stock is. Examples being: Kits that got redesigned for a new release, old books, a metal model clear-out - things like that.

I don't know if and for how much they resell old starter kits, but I think I remember hearing that they have to send outdated products back to HQs to "dispose of them", whichever way you want to interpret it. The store manager mentioned about told me that unsold kits of dreadfleet for example had to be sent back to destroy them. While it's something else with limited edition collectibles like that I wouldn't be too surprised if it was the same with old books and metal models and plastic kits, unless they're just being repackaged.

[quote="DominicJ"]

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Mid 90's, I remember the sales, buy two get one free on anything, I went in to Games Workshop on hobby night (just one night, at manchester, the flagship store) and I was the only person.
t.

I miss that store, the new one is nice but just cant compare with the real estate on offer when the store was down in the Arndale's 'Dungeon'

I believe if the prices were cheaper they would sell more. More people can learn about it or will become willing to learn about it. People in this hobby from what I have noticed continue to buy units to make their army as large as possible, so making people more financially invested is unnecessary. This hobby grew from being cheap so that proves that the hobby is damn fun and addictive.
The marketing and pricing by GW is awful (and yes I know I should stop buying it if its so bad but remember I am human).

I learned this evening about GW pricing in Australia and apparently someone said they have a monopoly according to Australian law, supposedly so they are suing GW . That has me seriously thinking of not purchasing GW anymore even though I just bought the new Eldar units this morning.

Looks like Games Workshop might possibly have finally worked out that they can sell more stuff if they do it cheaper. They're actually doing a discount on some big purchases!

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/pre-orders/games-workshop/cat_531.html

If these are accurate, the Eldar Ghost Warrior one is £56 off the store price even before the 10% discount that the store is offering.

PS - I know this is a thread necro but this is new information on the same topic so I didn't think it was worth a whole new thread. If other mods disagree, I'll start a new topic.