DE HQ options discussion

Continuation of discussion started in this thread:
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t15802p75-scourges-and-hellions-after-the-faq-thoughts-and-feelings

We were discussing the HQ options of bikes, wings and skyboards from various points of view. Plus special characters and other related issues.

Mandrake HQ is a strange thing since their "faction" is really small, but we do have Drazhar too...

As far as generic HQs go, I'd love to see something along the line:

Succubus - can issue a command for a certain stance to nearby wych units instead of current aura adjusting their role mid-battle. Melee-oriented, offensive.

Archon - Employing various artifacts to gain army-wide advantage. Tactical advantages, VP generation, Antipsykery.

Haemi - PfP boost, Drug boost, debuff of enemies.

From previous thread:

Ikol wrote:

Scourge Archon
Mv:14", WS2+, BS:3+, S:3, T:3, W:3, A:4, Ld:9, Sv: 5+/6++(Ghostplate)/2++(Shadow Field)
Wargear: Power Sword, Splinter Pistol, Darklight Grenades
Wargear Options:
May replace Power Sword with one of the following: Agoniser, Power Lance, Venom Blade, Husk Blade.

May replace Splinter Pistol with one of the following: Blast Pistol, Blaster, Haywire Blaster, Heat Lance, Splinter Cannon, Dark Lance

May take items from the Arcane Wargear and Artefacts of Cruelty lists.

Abilities:
Ghostplate (as per Scourges)

Shadowfield (as per Archon)

Winged Strike (as per Scourges)

Under the Eye of Your Lord: Any soul under the employ of an Archon that fails to pull their weight is liable to be cut down from behind in a dark alleyway the minute they return to Commoragh, for fear of such a fate, those that find themselves under their rulers scrutiny redouble their efforts to hit their targets. Faction Keyword "<Kabal>" and Keyword "Scourge" Units within 6" may reroll to Hit rolls of a 1 any time they make a Shooting Attack.

Eh?

Anyone?

@Ikol - Shouldnt he have BS2+ as normal Archon?
The keywords I guess would be needed both to be present, right?

I really like the Scourge Archon as he seems just scarier then our current iteration. He buffs up the factions he supports a LOT, and I could see having this guy around Ravagers just as much as any other unit. Overall I really like him.

I would prefer BS2 as this guy is an HQ and a 3+ HQ for Eldar just seems wrong IMO, but mechanically I see why he did it as his "Under the Eye of Your Lord" rule (Which I love btw) would (if he had BS2) mean he has hitting on 2s rerolling, which would make him terrifying to use with Scourges as a mobile Dark Lance or Blaster platform (Can the Scourge Archon take Dark Lances like Scourge can? Cause if so him baby sitting Ravagers would be an appealing role for him)

Overall @Ikol I LOVE the Scourge Archon

We lost so many characters makes me sad

Rhivan wrote:

I really like the Scourge Archon as he seems just scarier then our current iteration. He buffs up the factions he supports a LOT, and I could see having this guy around Ravagers just as much as any other unit. Overall I really like him.

I would prefer BS2 as this guy is an HQ and a 3+ HQ for Eldar just seems wrong IMO, but mechanically I see why he did it as his "Under the Eye of Your Lord" rule (Which I love btw) would (if he had BS2) mean he has hitting on 2s rerolling, which would make him terrifying to use with Scourges as a mobile Dark Lance or Blaster platform (Can the Scourge Archon take Dark Lances like Scourge can? Cause if so him baby sitting Ravagers would be an appealing role for him)

Overall @Ikol I LOVE the Scourge Archon

Yeah, definitely should have been 2+... the guys main gig is shooting and shooting buffs, after all. In other words; nice justifications, but it was a rushjob mistake. (Which is why I didn't print it, advertise it as perfect and then make you pay to be able to look at it...

One HQ model (who'd cost ~60-70 pts base carrying a 20 point gun in addition to other wargear having a 1/36 chance of missing doesn't seem too OP in my book. Powerful sure, but you're paying for it. And remember, -1 to Hit if he moves, so that becomes 4/36 chance of missing. Or it should. I haven't quite worked out how to math rerolls with GW's STUPID "modifiers after rerolls" rule. (So freaking dumb... this belongs in the rant thread. Moving on.)

Do you think he should have access to the Shardcarbine? I'd say not, reg Archon hasn't had Splinter Rifle access for a while.

I've actually got a thread going in Rules dev about a possible 8th ed Codex re-write... the Scourge Archon has been penned in for being added to it.

Thanks for the compliments!

aurynn wrote:

@Ikol - Shouldnt he have BS2+ as normal Archon?
The keywords I guess would be needed both to be present, right?

I kind of meant "and/or" there.

Good catch though, its' like I have an editting team!  Yay me!

Edit: avoiding triple Post:

Lady Aurelia Malys

"I swear, I'm not a clown!":

Steel Fan has Power Sword rules with a +1 Attack (that I just worked into the profile)

Duke Travellyth Sliscus

The Man, The Myth, The Legend:

Serpent Blades are just Poison 2+ Agonisers rules-wise. S: user, though.

Splinter Weaponry back to S:1.

Kabal Reliquary, Artefacts of Cruelty:

Parasite’s Kiss: 12” S1, AP0 Dmg1 Pistol, Poisoned(2+), Each time you inflict a wound with this weapon, the bearer immediately regains a Wound lost previously in the battle.

Archangel of Pain: Once per game, the bearer can open the Archangel of Pain instead of firing a weapon in the Shooting phase.  When they do so, each enemy unit within 9” of them suffers a permanent -2 Leadership modifier.  And must take a Morale test at the end of the current turn, regardless of whether or not they suffered casualties.

Djin Blade: Melee, S user, AP-3, Dmg1.  During any Fight phase, the bearer may choose to make double the number of Attacks in their Attacks profile.  When they do so, any attacks that miss are inflicted to themselves.

Helm of Spite: The bearer may attempt to deny any Psychic Power cast within 12” of them, with a +2 modifier on their deny roll.  If they successfully deny a Psychic Power, then the caster immediately suffers Perils of the Warp.

Armour of Misery:  The bearer receives a 3+ Armour Save and a 4+ Invulnerable Save.  All enemy units within 6” suffer a -1 Leadership Penalty.



Arcane Wargear I was figuring could be as follows, the idea was that all unnamed HQ's could grab from it:

Soul Trap: for every model killed in CC; +1 Strength.

Phantasm Grenade Launcher.

Webway Portal. Deep Strike Vector. Lets you deploy 2 units (or 1 vehicle and any occupants) in the Webway. They can be placed at the end of any movement phase, so long as they are wholly within 12" of the bearer.

Illusory Shroud. Any unit that is wholly within 12" of the bearer gains the Hard to Hit (-1 on Hit rolls, same as Venoms, Fliers and Mandrakes) modifier.

Thoughts?

Ad Malys
5W I think. 6W is exceptional and should be reserved for tougher characters. 4++ Rerollable has Urien and its awfuly strong.
We no longer have Plasma Grenades. Darklight Grenades. :-D Maybe no grenades at all. Its kinda fluffy for our HQs not to carry ones. Especially her, who is an Archon, not Succubus.
No PGL for her. She is elegant, likes to dress up and not carry a grenade launcher on her back.
Reroll to wound is very dangerous en masse. Maybe to one unit. Something like "Weighing the worth".
That premonition - We are DE. Don't think defensively. I'd go with her old ability. Pick 3 units and redeploy. Or give 1 unit scout move. That by itself would be great enough.
Illusory Shroud - nah. too much. We cannot have our squishy HQs have too many abilities and get too expensive IMO.

WWP - Can be used in one of three ways: Give one unit ability to be placed into reserves and arrive via DS min 9'' from the enemy. OR during the course of the battle, instead of movement, the carrier may move anywhere on the battlefield, more than 9'' from the enemy. He may move with a transport he is embarked on and any other passengers embarked on his transport. OR can be used instead of movement and causes just the carrier to leave the battle. The unit does not count as killed for the purposes of VPs. No Warlord VP, no Killpoints.

Sliscus
Again W5
I'd give him +1 on wound rolls of poison weapons. Making them more effective against vehicles too...
And ability to pick any drug for any unit even multiple times. Just 100% freedom.
And 2 drugs for himself. Its too strong for units.
His blades I'd go for 4+ wound (and the +1 to wound) with rerolls, No AP, D2 - he'd be great against big dudes, but still struggle with Termies and the likes.

Archangel - Permanent abilities like that make the equip expensive. Make it one turn to make it tactically challenging and fun.

Soul Trap - That would be so bloody strong given there is no limit on Str... Jump at some conscripts and by the end of T3 you are STR 12... Way too strong IMO.

Helm - would be awfully expensive like that. Its like having half of a very strong psyker on your head.

Armour - could be. Will be expensive again.

Djinn blade - I like it as long as the backslash hits are autohits.

Quote :

In other words; nice justifications, but it was a rushjob mistake.

xD I was operating under "If this isn't a mistake then he must be trying to balance it so what would be his reasoning for doing so?"

Quote :

One HQ model (who'd cost ~60-70 pts base carrying a 20 point gun in addition to other wargear having a 1/36 chance of missing doesn't seem too OP in my book. Powerful sure, but you're paying for it.

Oh I get that but I wasn't just factoring in his Dark Lance shots (although I like how reliable his would be) I was thinking about how beautiful a flock of Scourge with him all having Darklances, or him babysitting a Ravager and rerolling 1s there (As Ravagers would gain the Kabal Keyword if you choose)

So having 3 ravagers with an Scourge Archon babysitting would make those Ravagers all the more deadly. (Kinda like a Tech Priest Dominus for the Admech come to think of it)

Quote :

I've actually got a thread going in Rules dev about a possible 8th ed Codex re-write... the Scourge Archon has been penned in for being added to it.

Link please?

Quote :

Lady Aurelia Malys
"I swear, I'm not a clown!":

I like her, although I have some questions
1.) Points Cost
2.) Her Mistress of Predilection rule, would it affect her as well giving her a 3++? As she would have these special rules. If you don't want that you may want to change her Invuln to a 4++
EDIT: And rerollable 3++ if you don't fix things will make her a GOD in terms Tankiest HQ for us... I kinda love it xD
3.) She is missing PfP
4.) I assume so but will she be allowed to go Ynnari as I know Drazhar and Urien are not.
5.) Wounds are a bit high 5 works

Quote :

Duke Travellyth Sliscus
The Man, The Myth, The Legend:

I haven't read any of the rules yet but as I type this I must say I love you for giving us back the Duke (I started in 7th but I've read about him, and more importantly visited his 1d4chan page xD )

Well now that I've read the rules
1.) I think the Serpent blades should add 1 to his attacks (as it's blades plural)
2.) Best Kabal name after
3.) A bit high for wounds... Unless we want to excuse his 6th wounds by tons of drugs xD

Quote :

Kabal Reliquary, Artefacts of Cruelty

Glad to have these back.

So the weapons and armor are fine so far imo but I feel points will need to be played with to make them point efficient (I haven't played 8th enough to really to really get a good read on everything though)

Though the Soul Trap... dude you are going to need to reword it cause "for every model killed in CC; +1 Strength" is INSANE. I wouldn't make it a character because then we wouldn't get any milage on it but we'd need a cap otherwise our Archon could become S15 or something in normal games... Make a max of 5-6 that way he isn't absolutely insane.

rest of the Arcane Wargear I really like though espesially the Shroud. (I love the "You can't get me feeling" I get when I read about effects like that.)

With regard to the Scourge Archon, I'd probably have him give straight reroll 1s (shooting and combat). I think it would fit in a little better with the 'Bird of Prey' angle.


Anyway, here's a suggestion for a Mandrake HQ:


Mandrake Lord
Mv:8", WS2+, BS:2+, S:4, T:3, W:5, A:4, Ld:9, Sv: 7+ (4++)

Baneblast: Assault 3 S5 AP-1 D1 (6+ to wound causes Mortal Wounds, as per Baleblast.)
Blacksteel Blade: Melee S User AP-1 D1 (The Mandrake Lord may make an additional attack with this weapon. In addition, each 6+ to wound causes a Mortal wound.)

The Mandrake Lord may purchase wings for Xpts. If he does, his speed becomes 14" and he gains the Fly rule.

Power From Pain
From out of the Shadows (as the Mandrake rule)
A Shadow in the Darkness (Your opponent must subtract 1 from the hit rolls of any attacks that target this unit. In addition, the Mandrake Lord has a 4+ invulnerable save.)
Perfect Hunter (Mandrake units within 6" may reroll failed to-wound rolls).
Life Stealer (Once per turn, at the end of any phase in which the Mandrake Lord caused at least one wound, you may choose one of the following effects:
- The Mandrake Lord regains 1d3 wounds
- The Mandrake Lord may shoot as if it was the shooting phase. If the Mandrake Lord is within 1" of an enemy, his Baleblast is treated as a Pistol weapon.)


No idea regarding points. Probably more than our other HQs as he's likely to be a bit stronger on his own, though he obviously loses out in the buff department as he can only buff one unit.

I also wasn't sure what other weapons he should take. The idea I was working with was to basically make him free of technology (so no pistols, no power weapons, no jetbike/skyboard etc.). Maybe a Huskblade?

If anyone has ideas regarding other possible Mandrake Weapons I'm all ears.

@Shredder
I'd not be afraid of giving him S5
As for Baneblast... how about giving him some nasty Nova Power. Perhaps even causing MVs but maybe the reroll wounds on Mandrakes is good enough. The idea was to compensate that he cannot support that many units unless you spam mandrakes.
Healing himself... I'd rather not.
Life Stealer - why not add "pistol" weapon type with a range of 18'' and the aforementioned profile? Could do the trick.
Cost? Little around 100 I think would be OK considering Succubus stats and cost.

Digging the idea of a mandrake HQ. What about Kheradruakh? He did appear in name during GS2.

Giving a mandrake HQ the ability to "shadow step" or teleport around the board would be neat.

lament.config wrote:

Digging the idea of a mandrake HQ. What about Kheradruakh? He did appear in name during GS2.

Giving a mandrake HQ the ability to "shadow step" or teleport around the board would be neat.

This, i always felt Mandrakes shouldve had the 7th GSC ability "cult ambush" the one where they can re deploy.

aurynn wrote:

@Shredder
I'd not be afraid of giving him S5

Fair enough. I actually had him S5 initially, but then wondered if that was a bit much.

aurynn wrote:

@Shredder
As for Baneblast... how about giving him some nasty Nova Power. Perhaps even causing MVs but maybe the reroll wounds on Mandrakes is good enough. The idea was to compensate that he cannot support that many units unless you spam mandrakes.

I thought the rerolls would be enough, honestly, though I could maybe make his own weapon slightly better. Perhaps an extra shot or something?

Otherwise, could you maybe elaborate on what sort of 'Nova power' you're thinking of.

aurynn wrote:

Healing himself... I'd rather not.

I like the heal ability. i don't think it's a major thing, but IMO it fits the fluff well - with Mandrakes being particularly vampire-like (with their Baleblasts being powered by stolen life). It just seemed logical (and flavourful) to me that a more powerful Mandrake would be able to use stolen life for other means - such as restoring his own body.

aurynn wrote:

Life Stealer - why not add "pistol" weapon type with a range of 18'' and the aforementioned profile? Could do the trick.

I could but I thought this was a bit more efficient (since the Pistol rule is only relevant if he's actually in combat). The alternative would be to also give him the option to fight as if it was the fight phase.

aurynn wrote:

Cost? Little around 100 I think would be OK considering Succubus stats and cost.

Okay, that's a good starting point. Cheers.

Any thoughts on the price of wings? I'm thinking they shouldn't cost much - especially if he's getting a teleport ability anyway.

lament.config wrote:

Giving a mandrake HQ the ability to "shadow step" or teleport around the board would be neat.

That's a great idea. In terms of how to go about it:
- He could simply do it in place of normal movement (removed from the table and then immediately replaced as if arriving via From out of the Shadows)
- I could add it to the list of abilities he can perform when he successfully inflicts one or more wounds in a turn.
- He could do something along the lines of the Swooping Hawk Skyleap.

Any of those appeal to you?

Oh, one other thing - do you think he should have a 'killer not a leader' type ability that prevents him from being your Warlord?

Ikol wrote:

Duke Travellyth Sliscus
spoiler="The Man, The Myth, The Legend"

Thoughts?

SOMEbody, PLEASE! ...Get this man a drug.

Hey @Shredder, I really do like the Mandrake Lord, although I do agree that S5 would fit better for him (Most of our S guys are either 3 or 5 anyway)

For the healing I do like it simply because the life-stealer trait appeals to me (and I checked the lore on Baleblast and you are right on that so it could work fluff wise) So I'd keep it myself.

As for him teleporting around I have to agree with amishprn86 and say something like Cult Infiltrate would be a cool way to run him, especially if he can grab friendly mandrakes within 3 inches of him to come with.

Rhivan wrote:

Quote :

In other words; nice justifications, but it was a rushjob mistake.

xD I was operating under "If this isn't a mistake then he must be trying to balance it so what would be his reasoning for doing so?"

Fair, fair.

Quote :

One HQ model (who'd cost ~60-70 pts base carrying a 20 point gun in addition to other wargear having a 1/36 chance of missing doesn't seem too OP in my book. Powerful sure, but you're paying for it.

Oh I get that but I wasn't just factoring in his Dark Lance shots (although I like how reliable his would be) I was thinking about how beautiful a flock of Scourge with him all having Darklances, or him babysitting a Ravager and rerolling 1s there (As Ravagers would gain the Kabal Keyword if you choose)

So having 3 ravagers with an Scourge Archon babysitting would make those Ravagers all the more deadly. (Kinda like a Tech Priest Dominus for the Admech come to think of it)
And he'd be able to keep up with the boats!  Synnergy!!  

Quote :

I've actually got a thread going in Rules dev about a possible 8th ed Codex re-write... the Scourge Archon has been penned in for being added to it.

Link please?

Here: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t15777-a-fun-little-experiment#190151

Quote :

Lady Aurelia Malys
"I swear, I'm not a clown!":

I like her, although I have some questions
1.) Points Cost
2.) Her Mistress of Predilection rule, would it affect her as well giving her a 3++? As she would have these special rules. If you don't want that you may want to change her Invuln to a 4++
EDIT: And rerollable 3++ if you don't fix things will make her a GOD in terms Tankiest HQ for us... I kinda love it xD
3.) She is missing PfP
4.) I assume so but will she be allowed to go Ynnari as I know Drazhar and Urien are not.
5.) Wounds are a bit high 5 works

1.) 80-110. Unsure.
2.  Not intended.  Rerollable 4++ with a -1 to Hit was the plan.  @aurynn has recommended the Invuln angle of predilection is removed entirely, making her instead give redeployments.  I'm kind of iffy about that.  Shift the Invuln on datasheet to 5++, keep the invuln aspect of Predilection.
3.) She is indeed.  Oops.
4.) I think not, actually.  She has taken the word of Cegorach into her heart (pun), serving another God, even from the same Pantheon would be unbecoming of her loyalty.  Represented by Keyword Masque.  She's also a Harlies HQ!  Now I'm imagining Shadowseer + Malys.  3++, -1 to Hit, -1 to Wound bubble of despair.  And that's before we start throwing psychic defenses around.  Maybe that should be nerfed...
5.) Yeah, 5 Wounds as discussed with @aurynn.

Quote :

Duke Travellyth Sliscus
The Man, The Myth, The Legend:

I haven't read any of the rules yet but as I type this I must say I love you for giving us back the Duke (I started in 7th but I've read about him, and more importantly visited his 1d4chan page xD )

Well now that I've read the rules
1.) I think the Serpent blades should add 1 to his attacks (as it's blades plural)
2.) Best Kabal name after
3.) A bit high for wounds... Unless we want to excuse his 6th wounds by tons of drugs xD

Cheers.  He was a much beloved character, its a real shame GeeDubs seem to have caused him Critical Existence Failure.

1.) Hence the Attack profile.  I'll wind that one down and bring the Serpent Blades more in line with Demiklaive double blades.
2.) I think you mean ever?  Unless you meant "after something else."???  Also yes.  I couldn't remember the original name, this is just meant to be a placeholder.  He's more Corsair than Archon.
3.  Yeah.  5 Wounds.  Give him 3 drugs from the table to represent his addictions.  As @aurynn pointed out, he is currently lacking the rule. [/color]

Quote :

Kabal Reliquary, Artefacts of Cruelty

Glad to have these back.

So the weapons and armor are fine so far imo but I feel points will need to be played with to make them point efficient (I haven't played 8th enough to really to really get a good read on everything though)

Though the Soul Trap... dude you are going to need to reword it cause "for every model killed in CC; +1 Strength" is INSANE. I wouldn't make it a character because then we wouldn't get any milage on it but we'd need a cap otherwise our Archon could become S15 or something in normal games... Make a max of 5-6 that way he isn't absolutely insane.

rest of the Arcane Wargear I really like though espesially the Shroud. (I love the "You can't get me feeling" I get when I read about effects like that.)

I know, right?

Cheers.  I figured ~6 points for the Djinn Blade.  If it was a flat double Attacks, I'd be saying 8-10, but the risk of self-inflicted Mortal Wounds is enough to bring the cost down imo.  You certainly shouldn't be PAYING for that  Privelege!  Parasites Kiss... 3 Points more than the Stinger.

Soul Trap should cap Strength at 7, agreed.  Should be powerful, but not insanely so.  Succubi will enjoy this one.  Synnergises with their other +Strength vectors for a v/powerful melee combatant.  10-20.  I'd say 15+ to be safe,

Cheers.

aurynn wrote:

Ad Malys
5W I think. 6W is exceptional and should be reserved for tougher characters. 4++ Rerollable has Urien and its awfuly strong.
We no longer have Plasma Grenades. Darklight Grenades. :-D Maybe no grenades at all. Its kinda fluffy for our HQs not to carry ones. Especially her, who is an Archon, not Succubus.
No PGL for her. She is elegant, likes to dress up and not carry a grenade launcher on her back.
Reroll to wound is very dangerous en masse. Maybe to one unit. Something like "Weighing the worth".
That premonition - We are DE. Don't think defensively. I'd go with her old ability. Pick 3 units and redeploy. Or give 1 unit scout move. That by itself would be great enough.
Illusory Shroud - nah. too much. We cannot have our squishy HQs have too many abilities and get too expensive IMO.

5W is better, yeah.  6 for Urien though!
Okay, I'll remove the Grenades and Launcher.  That makes sense from fluff.

I kind of wanted to shift around the buff system we Deldar have, with our big HQ's giving a buff to Drukhari, and then a stacking buff to their "Faction".

Remember, these buffs only take effect once she's footslogging.  But yeah, redeploy would be cool too.

Illusory Shroud is a buff vector for HQ's to take, makes the army, yknow, HARD TO HIT.  Which is the entire Deldar Fluff.  Maybe Haemies should be unable to take it, but Wych Cults and Kabals?
The "too expensive, too many buffs" complaint is a legitimate one.  Maybe if the Predilection rule was changed to redeployment, then this would be fine?

aurynn wrote:

WWP - Can be used in one of three ways: Give one unit ability to be placed into reserves and arrive via DS min 9'' from the enemy. OR during the course of the battle, instead of movement, the carrier may move anywhere on the battlefield, more than 9'' from the enemy. He may move with a transport he is embarked on and any other passengers embarked on his transport. OR can be used instead of movement and causes just the carrier to leave the battle. The unit does not count as killed for the purposes of VPs. No Warlord VP, no Killpoints.

Don't go stealing Cypher's schtick.  I think this would be the definition of "rules bloat".  Does too many things.  The portalling around would make more sense for a teleporter (which this isn't).  DS would be okay, but I kind of wanted a return to the "there's a flag runner with the Portal.  The army is going to pour out halfway up the board and suddenly death will be thrown everywhere.
I think amending my version to disallow flyers, the Tantalus and non-Aeldari models would be enough.

aurynn wrote:

Sliscus
Again W5
I'd give him +1 on wound rolls of poison weapons. Making them more effective against vehicles too...
And ability to pick any drug for any unit even multiple times. Just 100% freedom.
And 2 drugs for himself. Its too strong for units.
His blades I'd go for 4+ wound (and the +1 to wound) with rerolls, No AP, D2 - he'd be great against big dudes, but still struggle with Termies and the likes.

5 Wounds, check.
Not sure I like the direction your'e going with for the blades.  Being innefrctive against Vehicles (he's S3, come on) was kind of the trade off for being very effective against single Wound Infantry.  Against Termies, they're still getting a 4+, and need I remind you of their two Wounds?  6 Attacks> 5 hits> 4.166666... Wounds> 2.08333 Wounds per fight phase. Which is 1 Termie.  Whilst Termies that are combat capable will be dealing ~ 0 wounds per turn until he fails a shadowfield save, at which point they jump to dealing ~ 1 Wound per model per Fight phase.  He fares better agianst Marines, dealing 2.777 wounds per turn.  Which is 2 models, with averages leaning towards three.  And against guard he'll deal 4.1666 Wounds per fight phase, as is appropriate.  Not overpowered.

3 Drugs for himself?  Maybe just make him unable to give the buff to Wych Cult models, as that's effectively what you're suggesting.

aurynn wrote:

Archangel - Permanent abilities like that make the equip expensive. Make it one turn to make it tactically challenging and fun.

Soul Trap - That would be so bloody strong given there is no limit on Str... Jump at some conscripts and by the end of T3 you are STR 12... Way too strong IMO.

Helm - would be awfully expensive like that. Its like having half of a very strong psyker on your head.

Armour - could be. Will be expensive again.

Djinn blade - I like it as long as the backslash hits are autohits.

Archangel- agreed
Soul-Trap- cap at S7?
Helm- get rid of the +2 and just let him try to deny-perils.  Also: this is Deldar.  It probably is a half-dead powerful psyker strapped to the Archon's head.
Armour-  I was thinking of this as the "run with Incubi" option.
Djinn Blade- Thought that was implied?  Succesful hits act as normal, unsuccesful hits are inflicted to the wielder as MW's.

Wooow. So much to reply to...

@Shredder
The nova power could be anything from "Deal D3 MV to all units within 6'' - friend and foe" to "Units within have -1 to hit on shooting and CC"
Or perhaps something like "Aetherial Assault - for the duration of 1 turn, enemy units must substract -1 from their Armour Saves and Invulnerable saves against melee and shooting attacks made by an unit with MANDRAKE keyword.

The healing is something I see as Ynnari thing. As was said before, I like to be faction-specific. So I'd give enemies -1 to hit shoting, -2 hit CC as he surrounds himself with the swirling souls of his victims.

The Pistol suggestion was in the interest of streamlining. He can shoot with it normally and use it in CC. Whats not to love?

Wings - for a Mandrake? Don't slap wings on anything that moves. I know the scourge wings look totally gorgeous. I am just looking at the sprue. But give him a shadow step or something like that if you want him to be mobile. Perhaps a mini WWP with limited range, from cover to cover (shadow) which could be used to assault automatically without overwatch. Maybe even for 1 unit of Drakes nearby. Again - nothing like Swooping Hawks. Its their thing, let them have it.

No Warlord thing is good IMO. Maybe if he is really good, I'd go as far as putting him ouside of FOC and not count against mandatory detachment requirements. Him and 1 unit of drakes. This would make the ability both boon and a curse.

@Ikol
I didnt realize I am stepping on Cypher's turf. Do not want anything of the sort. But I'd like the WWP be tactical shenanigans and not Hit-or-Miss with the carrier being shot down or not. In addition we are not allowed to put units into reserves. Just gaining this ability is worth a lot. Much more than in 7th, so I wanted to prevent WWP being again too expensive.

Drugs - I suggested that he gives 100% freedom in picking drugs in the army so you can take 3x Str drug on 3 units without the full table allocation. And 2 drugs for himself. Drugs by themselves are awesome tool of shifting unit's role. Emphasizing on it through the freedom of choice would support very fluffy armies, while his poison bonus would make you choose between the two AND boost the hellions a bit, who need it. Would also partially remove the need for Lances, letting you concentrate fully on the Duke's horde style of army.

Poison and blades - Partially explained above. As for his blades - he has 5A with dual blades without rerolls to hit, he is not going to be really effective against anything significant. Look at berserker champion and check his cost and tell me Duke is anywhere near. But I'd tailor him to wound things we have trouble wounding in CC. So he can have a special role in CC.

Helm - true, but are you willing to pay half the cost of a really good psyker for it? :-D

Soul Trap - This artifact is really good with either a Glaive, Powersword or Huskblade or similar weapons. I think the limit should be at S6 if the effect is permanent, making it very fast kick-in and then just be there and be "beautiful". How about +1 to wound rolls if the archon killed any model in previous fight phase. Not an easy artifact to make...

I would greatly like it if our options included multiple different HQ.
I do not care much if it is a succubus on a skyboard or a Hellion archon or a hellion baron or whatnot, same goes for a reaver bike and scourge wings.
The thing is I would dislike it if it were a special character. One I want to have my own fluff my own story not something forced. So I am less of a fan of adding only the special characters.

Hellion Baron
Mv:14", WS2+, BS:3+, S:3, T:3, W:3, A:4, Ld:9, Sv: 5+/6+++
Wargear: hellglaive, Splinter Pistol, splinter pods
Wargear Options:
May replace hellglaive with one of the following: Agoniser, Power sword, stunclaw.
May replace Splinter Pistol with one of the following: Blast Pistol.
May take phantasm grenade launcher.

Abilities:
Power from pain, combat drugs, hit and run.

Daring slash: Knowing that they get a bonus if they make the first kill in any engament and if they do not pull their weight the baron will strip their soul from them (and take away their skyboard) they all try a little harder. Keyword "Hellion" Units within 6" may make an extra attack during the charge.

You know what I would like to see as our army wide shenanigan? VP manipulation. Just a tiny bit. That would be an unique and useful ability that would let us loosen our focus on VP gain and mitigate KP missions. Nothing too fancy. +1/-1 VP would be more than enough.

Rhivan wrote:

Hey @Shredder, I really do like the Mandrake Lord, although I do agree that S5 would fit better for him (Most of our S guys are either 3 or 5 anyway)

That's fine. I'll try and do a revised version soon and will make it S5.

Rhivan wrote:

For the healing I do like it simply because the life-stealer trait appeals to me (and I checked the lore on Baleblast and you are right on that so it could work fluff wise) So I'd keep it myself.

Yeah, I think I'll leave it on him for now.

Rhivan wrote:

As for him teleporting around I have to agree with amishprn86 and say something like Cult Infiltrate would be a cool way to run him, especially if he can grab friendly mandrakes within 3 inches of him to come with.

Teleporting other Mandrakes would be nice. I'll take a look at the Cult Infiltrate rules and see if I can come up with an interesting twist.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on him.

aurynn wrote:

The nova power could be anything from "Deal D3 MV to all units within 6'' - friend and foe" to "Units within have -1 to hit on shooting and CC"
Or perhaps something like "Aetherial Assault - for the duration of 1 turn, enemy units must substract -1 from their Armour Saves and Invulnerable saves against melee and shooting attacks made by an unit with MANDRAKE keyword.

That's interesting, though I think it's a different direction from what I had in mind. I'd thought that Mandrakes were along the lines of hunters/assassins, so I thought single-target attacks would make more sense. However, I haven't read their fluff in a while so I could be misremembering.

aurynn wrote:

The healing is something I see as Ynnari thing. As was said before, I like to be faction-specific.

I disagree. I see no reason why Ynnari should have a monopoly on Eldar healing abilities. What's more, the mechanisms by which they heal seem different enough (at least to me) that they don't really encroach on one another. Ynnari characters heal when a nearby Eldar model dies. My Mandrake Lord heals when he inflicts wounds on enemy units.

aurynn wrote:

Wooow. So much to reply to...

@Shredder
The Pistol suggestion was in the interest of streamlining. He can shoot with it normally and use it in CC. Whats not to love?

Yeah, I was mostly just trying to keep his shooting attack consistent with other Mandrakes. It's a good point though. I'll do a revised version soon and give him a pistol attack.

aurynn wrote:

Wings - for a Mandrake? Don't slap wings on anything that moves. I know the scourge wings look totally gorgeous. I am just looking at the sprue.

Nonsense! Wings make everything better!

Seriously though, I don't think wings are wholly out of place on a Mandrake Lord:
- Given that The Decapitator had a second pair of arms, Mandrakes either employ the services of Haemonculi or else occasionally develop extra appendages (either of these would at least allow the possibility of wings).
- Wings fit in with the technology-free theme I was going for.
- From a modelling perspective, wings would help the Mandrake Lord stand out from normal Mandrakes.
- I'm a selfish bastard who happens to own a Winged Mandrake model.

That aside, it does seem that we disagree on quite a few things. Might it be easier if you were to write out your own Mandrake HQ so that's we'd have the full picture in terms of a comparison?

aurynn wrote:

But give him a shadow step or something like that if you want him to be mobile. Perhaps a mini WWP with limited range, from cover to cover (shadow) which could be used to assault automatically without overwatch. Maybe even for 1 unit of Drakes nearby. Again - nothing like Swooping Hawks. Its their thing, let them have it.

I only suggested Swooping Hawks because I was trying to get a feel for what sort of ability people wanted. But yeah, I'll try and think of some means of teleportation based on the various ideas you and others have kindly offered.

aurynn wrote:

No Warlord thing is good IMO.

Okay, I'll add it to Mandrake Lord v1.1.

aurynn wrote:

Maybe if he is really good, I'd go as far as putting him ouside of FOC and not count against mandatory detachment requirements. Him and 1 unit of drakes. This would make the ability both boon and a curse.

I think offering DE players a good HQ and then telling them they can't use him to help unlock a Battalion or other detachment would just be cruel.

I know we don't always agree but I nevertheless appreciate your feedback, aurynn.

@Shredder - If everyone would agree, no feedback would be necessary. I like to read your opinions too, both as a mirror when we disagree and as a positive feedback when we do.

Shredder wrote:

I disagree. I see no reason why Ynnari should have a monopoly on Eldar healing abilities.

Faction specific has nothing to do with the setting's logic. Its a game thing. And I believe the factions should be distinct. There is little difference between healing and preventing wounds result-wise. Preventing is more DE IMO. That was my reasoning.

Shredder wrote:

Might it be easier if you were to write out your own Mandrake HQ so that's we'd have the full picture in terms of a comparison?

I'll give it a thought.

Shredder wrote:

I think offering DE players a good HQ and then telling them they can't use him to help unlock a Battalion or other detachment would just be cruel.

100+ pts HQs are hardly anything anyone would use for unlocking Battalion or Brigade. It would also show that he as HQ is nothing to normal DE. He is a total outsider and not their leader. Let him count in Vanguard FOC with only Mandrake units in the detachment, but not with others. So you could either take 2 units of mandrakes and him for Vanguard or Him and one unit if you do want to take him and dont have enough Elite/HQ slots - escaping the Auxiliary detachment. Not bad trade methinks.
EDIT: He really is not a commander. From what I remember from the books, he could not really open anything that would result in CP gain. So I'd really go with him outside FOC and can take up to 2 units of 'drakes with him.

aurynn wrote:

@Shredder - If everyone would agree, no feedback would be necessary. I like to read your opinions too, both as a mirror when we disagree and as a positive feedback when we do.

aurynn wrote:

Faction specific has nothing to do with the setting's logic. Its a game thing. And I believe the factions should be distinct. There is little difference between healing and preventing wounds result-wise. Preventing is more DE IMO. That was my reasoning.

Maybe I just look at things differently, because I see preventing wounds as being almost the opposite of healing them.

Also, I'd actually argue that healing fits DE better than preventing wounds:
- It fits in with their general vampirism theme (which includes stealing life/causing pain to rejuvenate themselves).
- Also, in the fluff, DE don't really go out of their way to prevent injuries to themselves - indeed, many willingly inflict injuries on themselves. e.g. the armour worn by basic Kabalite warriors has hooks and barbs on the inside that did into their flesh. Apparently this helps keep them focused.

[quote="aurynn"]@Shredder - If everyone would agree, no feedback would be necessary. I like to read your opinions too, both as a mirror when we disagree and as a positive feedback when we do.

Shredder wrote:

100+ pts HQs are hardly anything anyone would use for unlocking Battalion or Brigade.

My Necrons would like a word with you.

Shredder wrote:

It would also show that he as HQ is nothing to normal DE. He is a total outsider and not their leader. Let him count in Vanguard FOC with only Mandrake units in the detachment, but not with others. So you could either take 2 units of mandrakes and him for Vanguard or Him and one unit if you do want to take him and dont have enough Elite/HQ slots - escaping the Auxiliary detachment. Not bad trade methinks.
EDIT: He really is not a commander. From what I remember from the books, he could not really open anything that would result in CP gain. So I'd really go with him outside FOC and can take up to 2 units of 'drakes with him.

I see what you mean. I'm actually starting to like this idea. As you say, I think it might help give the impression that this is a real outsider - a creature that's other-worldly even by DE standards.

Yeah, I'll see if I can add something like this to my revised rules for him.

I see where your healing arguments come from, but I was always under the impression that DE really do not want to get hurt, nor do they want to get rejuvenated or reconstructed. Ergo Shadowfields, Hard-to-Hits, lightning strikes, dodges... AND healing through inflicting pain is already reflected in PfP through - guess what - a save. Not healing. So it all led me to thinking that "no healing for the wicked".

To be fair, I think PfP is a save simply because most DE models only have 1 wound.

You can't heal when you're dead.

While I'm not one for wish listing in 3rd ed you could take a bike or board for any HQ (you could make a Incubi Lord to!).

In 5ed ed for some insane reason it was taken away. I think a succubus should at least be able
to take a bike or board - I'm not sure it fits the theme for other HQs but it would be nice to have some variety.