are terminators really godlike?

so. terminators are supposedly god-like in toughness now eh? why? I may be missing something but from what i see, its just because of power weapons becoming AP3 right? well how often do we, as dark eldr use power weapons? sometimes on archons but very rarely. so is their something im missing to why terminators are god-like now?

It's not just power weapons its ALL power weapons. So the agonizer, the huskblade, all that fun stuff is AP3, and idk about you, but i use those rather often.

Your wych squads can no longer take a weapon that can hurt armor 2 enemies anymore, without a severe nerf to I.

Eh, it means you can't use Incubi to smash standard Shootynators anymore. And yes, you don't normally wanna assault them anyway. (Seen them bounce off before) Only fools ever assaulted Hamminators.

Realistically, it means that whereas before, assaulting Terminators was inherently risky, now it's totally futile. But.... Since this edition seems to be focusing on shooting, this may not be such a big deal.

IMO, under the new rules, it's the standard Terminators with assault cannons and storm bolters which have become awesome. Now if you assault them, expect to get popped with bolter fire, and then see your attacks bounce right off. (Hamminators have always been nigh invincible to power weapons, now they're totally immune to them in close combat)

We have Dissies for that(which you should have a lot more of in your lists now since we don't have to take billions of dark lances anymore, wyches+HWG's=FTW!!!).

They wanted the fight's to feel more like the lore; I am not a lore player myself but from my understanding of it termies and marines in general wreck face in CC, so the days of charging a full squad of wyches at a full squad of marines and winning are in all likely hood gone, it makes me sad but that's how it is. So just the fact that Incubi can still cleave a marine squad to pieces is awesome, and overwatch doesn't really effect them because they have a marine armor save.

Just shoot termies..... a lot(that's honestly what you should of been doing in the first place)

Assaulting termies always was sort of a last resort, if you couldn't manage to open their land raider and CC seemed inevitable, so in that sense the PW->AP3 nerf isn't as bad as many tend to claim. It still sucks though

But yeah as Callofdoobie said

callofdoobie wrote:

Just shoot termies..... a lot(that's honestly what you should of been doing in the first place)

On the plus side, we can run circles around Terminators and just try to ignore them. Not real solid on Marine Rules, but as I see it, Terminators have three means of deploying--via Landraider, Stormraven, and Deep Strike. Taking a Landraider is just dumb, Stormraven will take an exceptionally long time, and Deep Strike still has all the problems it ever had. Between our awe-inspiring firepower and speed, I honestly don't think that Terminators are going to be a big deal.

Exactly. The most effective weapon against terminators is simply to ignore them thus preventing them from fulfilling their role as firemagnets

Xasper wrote:

Exactly. The most effective weapon against terminators is simply to ignore them thus preventing them from fulfilling their role as firemagnets

Indeed, even shooty Terminators aren't all that shooty compared to tactical Marines - a slightly better heavy weapon, and at 12-24" one more bolter shot per model, at 250% the points of a tactical marine. They're paying for defense and assault, not firepower. And their mobility is very limited, especially compared to DE - they have to dedicate multiple units to ensuring that a Terminator squad gets a charge off by wrecking transports/pinning squads/etc., so that's no different from us setting up an effective assault against an enemy unit.

IIRC, the only squad in the game that can have every model strike before Terminators at AP2 is Necron Triarch Praetorians, and they a) cost just as much, b) have no grenades, possibly losing their Initiative advantage, and c) only have 1 base attack + charge bonus. They may beat shooty Terminators, but Hammernators will still wreck their faces.

I am a bit concerned about armies that can field huge numbers of Terminators--Grey Knights and Deathwing. You get a mission with lots of objectives which they can park on, you might have some problems dislodging them. This, of course, assumes that your opponent will be nice and packed. If they're not, then they're just islands that you can deal with one at a time.

Actually, the Triarch Praetorians have unwieldy weapons so they hti at i1. Tyranid Warriors on the other hand have armour-ignoring boneswords that hit with their own i. I still wouldn't charge Termies with em as any surviving Termies is pretty much quaranteed to rip them apart with s8.

Lances are still the better choice against termies. They can deal against FNP termies with instant death (with dissie can't anymore), they ID their IC with 2+ armor, they still wound nobs bikers and plague marines at 2+ instead of 4+, you can use against vehicle and instakill paladins. Less shots but more versatility. That's, and a torrent of poisoned shots...

Played three games in 6th so far and pretty much did indeed ignore termies(like I always did).

Most MEQ armies can fill in the blanks with other stuff but a friend of mine who plays Thousand Sons is really getting frustrated. Everything is just so slow in his army because of slow and purposeful and in 6th DE got even faster.
He used to just go rhino-heavy but even that doesn't help him much now my Scourges pop those suckers right open, leaving him stranded like a turtle on his back. His two termie squads are killer but they just never get in range to do any serious damage...hooray for pre-measuring!

Also played against GK's, and I think it has to do more with the player being average and not yet accustomed to 6th, but I pretty much felt like my 5th ed. tactics still did the trick. Will play a battle against a really nasty GK player next week, we'll see.

So far I really don't think termies are as invincible as people make them out to be. Shoot them enough and they will eventually fail a save. My Duke with his buddies in a Raider are perfect for them.

First two games of 6th last night, first opponent had one squad of normal Terminators, second opponent had Deathwing....

Concentration of fire wins all.

I concur with Firdeth.

Played it like that in 5th and will continue to do so in 6th.

We're DE, so we play nasty. We throw our best assault units on their weakest (or average) CC units. And we shoot their best CC units from a save distance.

Sky Serpent wrote:

First two games of 6th last night, first opponent had one squad of normal Terminators, second opponent had Deathwing....

Concentration of fire wins all.

Night Fight helps.

But yeah, Terminators won't be a huge problem I think. At least they'll be easier to deal with than 5th Edition Parking Lots......

Staying on topic: terminators are godlike in surviving an amount of fire capable of filling the atlantic two times over and still they survive...well the hammernator do anyway
They wreck face in cc, shootinators are easier to kill, but have PF and storm bolters usually, if not, than something nasty.

as said above: shoot! We are pirates, Khain damn it! If they win cc, then shoot them instead, if they are shooty, tie'em up, or massacre with incu...hmm...im starting to wear out my initiall "6th is bad for us" disease...hmmm...niiiiiice.

If your units are in combat with Terminators then your doing it wrong.

The only thing i can see being annoying is that +2 save character who will take advantage of the fact your weapons don't do jack anymore.

@Farmer: disintegrator?

Terminators are supposed to have the ultimate in personal armour in the galaxy, hence not much can ignore it in close combat.

As above though, shoot them and they're not quite so tough, when I ran the numbers I figured out that (assuming they don't have FNP) then against standard termies, disintegrators are nearly twice as effective as dark lances and a dissie ravager should reliably kill two or three per turn, and against hammernators dissies are nearly 2.5 times more effective.
This is all down to the fact that whilst one shot from a dark lance is more likely to kill than one shot from a disintegrator, you get three shots from a dissie not one

Enfernux wrote:

@Farmer: disintegrator?

You dont really even need those. Just shoot their transport down and let them come to you and deal with the units that are going to rip apart your transports.

Assuming we are talking about TH/SS termies once they are footslogging it they are practically useless as it will take them a good 2-3 turns to get to you.

You could send Lelith at standard termies because her attacks ignore armor and technically aren't power weapons, so therefore you aren't wearing armor when you fight her. I checked the FAQ and it doesn't say she has power weapons and her special rules states she ignores armor. What do you guys think, viable?

MasterofPuppets wrote:

You could send Lelith at standard termies because her attacks ignore armor and technically aren't power weapons, so therefore you aren't wearing armor when you fight her. I checked the FAQ and it doesn't say she has power weapons and her special rules states she ignores armor. What do you guys think, viable?

It's well-established that her attacks ignore armour but unfortunately, unless she has 2 Pain Tokens, even with 11 attacks on the charge against Terminators she only causes 2-3 wounds, one of which may still be saved by the Terminators' 5++. She's slightly more survivable now though as long as she is in a unit as she has a 2++ Look Out Sir! save.

Yeah, what both you said :p

Can always buy her two pain tokens for 100pts and let her run off with 7 Wyches to rain down her attacks.

Terminators are god-like in assault. Even Normal tactical terms can cause us a huge problem. The solution is simple though... shoot them full of poison and darkmatter... Enough said...

Actually, I'm thinking of experimenting with using Lelith in a squad of Grotesques, as ablative wounds and a pain token until she can get in there and do her stuff.

However, the lack of poison hurts her combat effectiveness a lot.