Grotesques??

after some thinking, i concluded in to two variations...

1st
duke (with warriors deep striking)
4 grotesques, liquifier, aberration with whatever weapon you like, haemonculus with liquefier (in a raider deepstriking)

so, you have the advantage, instead of flat out and wait to see what your opponent's shooting will destroy, you get to burn something with 2 liquefiers.
deep strike is much safer if you mishap, also disembarking 6" makes it again a lot more safer (since you can put the raider in a safer spot), as well as rolling reserves on 3+
this could also work with an allied autarch along with some warp spiders perhaps (so they come on 2+), but then you would lose the second liquefier removing the haemonculus

2nd
baron + 4 gortesques as above, or 3 and a haemonculus in a raider, since jump infantry is bulky and can go in transports
so you get to have stealth, grenades and hit and run, all super effective for the grotesques

i think they are both quite competitive, what would you prefer and do you have any other suggestions?

Not a fan of deepstriking them. Remember you can disembark after moving at cruising speed so when you come down your still exposed for a turn but with less control and a 5+ Jink instead of 4. I like using Baron for Hit and Run makes them really fast moving through combats. But the Haemon makes them furious charge from the start and that much closer to Fearless.

well, if you have them on the table and play second you are risking them losing their transport in your deployment zone. If you play first, then you can of course deploy them, even if you have the duke and flat out them

if you leave them in reserves, then you would most probably flat out (if you come on second turn) and pray the raider will survive, which it won't most probably, then grots can be shot

If you deep strike them, then you still have the same chances for them to come on 3+ like if you would leave them in reserves. and still can hurt something (liquefiers) + shot from raider (in a side armor at least). when you would do nothing coming from reserves. yes the raider would have 5+ junk instead of 4+ but grots would most probably be already in some good cover, since you are not stupid and would deploy them there, and the raider could even be ignored to be honest since it's not a big threat, even if it gets hurt, you don't risk a pinning test+a rare wound in case of explosion (if inches rolled are less than grot deployment distance)

You can't fire Liqs as snaps. The only time where they sort of get snap is in Overwatch. But that's the wall of flame rule. And units inside still take a hit from explosion if it blows up and have to deploy in the crater of the vehicle. They can't make a disembark. I think if I had bad enough odds to deploy second and without Nightfight to keep me safe. I would still just deploy forward in cover, and use pre-measuring and Nightshields to keep me alive. Worst case, you have a T5 14 wound blob with FNP that should be moving through cover. If it lives, use aethersails and zoom in, if you get wrecked you should be in a good spot and not take much damage anyway.

unless i am missing something, with duke you can deep strike, and you can disembark, so you can shoot normally, not on top of the vehicle with snap shots. correct me if i am wrong
never said anything about snap shooting, or staying in the vehicle after deep striking.

Ahh, I see what you mean. Was reading the deep strike and transport rules and its weirdly worded. Deep strike says you can disembark after you deep strike but count as moving at cruising speed (6-12 inches), but in the transport rules it says you can't disembark if you've moved more than 6" (cruising speed).

It just seems too risky for my tastes /shrug

yeah it's a bit weirdly worded but deep strike is a usr, so extra rules.
just think about drop pods, everyone shoots normally after disembarking

well, will have to try both styles and report back

Shadows Revenge wrote:

if I was to run them, I would do 4 Grots, 1 w/ Liquifer; Aberation w/ Scissorhands or Flesh Gauntlet (I havent run the numbers onto which is better, but Im leaning more towards the extra attack...) w/ Haemie w/ Liquifer, Power Weapon, and Archon w/ Power Axe, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs, PGL. This way your squad has 4 T5 bodies, a T4 body, and then a T3 body. You have a challenge machine (Archon) that gives everyone grenades, and you have a ton of attacks, with the haemie coming through for some AP3 goodness.

Don't forget this unit has 2 Pain Tokens for FC too. Have you considered the Soul Trap?

cegorach wrote:

after some thinking, i concluded in to two variations...
baron + 4 gortesques as above, or 3 and a haemonculus in a raider, since jump infantry is bulky and can go in transports
so you get to have stealth, grenades and hit and run, all super effective for the grotesques

This would be awesome, but it seems Jump Infantry can't go into transports (but they do have the Bulky rule...?)

Page 78; "Only Infantry models can embark upon Transports (this does not include Jump or Jet Pack Infantry), unless specified otherwise.

The good ol' WWP is a tempting alternative for Grots as it makes it possible to bring a bigger unit with e.g. the Baron already attached. They should be sturdy enough to survive a turn of shooting, and while they're shooting at the Grots they're not shooting at the rest of the army

1++ wrote:

Shadows Revenge wrote:

if I was to run them, I would do 4 Grots, 1 w/ Liquifer; Aberation w/ Scissorhands or Flesh Gauntlet (I havent run the numbers onto which is better, but Im leaning more towards the extra attack...) w/ Haemie w/ Liquifer, Power Weapon, and Archon w/ Power Axe, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs, PGL. This way your squad has 4 T5 bodies, a T4 body, and then a T3 body. You have a challenge machine (Archon) that gives everyone grenades, and you have a ton of attacks, with the haemie coming through for some AP3 goodness.

Don't forget this unit has 2 Pain Tokens for FC too. Have you considered the Soul Trap?

the problem with the soul trap is that you actually have to kill the challenger. One thing Ive found out is that the Archon is good in challenges, but it takes awhile. His main job is to take on characters that would otherwise make mince meat of the Grots (so like captains w/ TH/SS, SC)

I have been running the following in a few games:

Haemy, liquifier, power axe
4 Grotesks, aberration, flesh gauntlet, liquifier
Raider, aethersail

Two liquifiers make them pretty nasty at both close range shooting or if they get charged. The haemy provides wound allocation shenanigans, furious charge, an extra liquifier and a S5 power axe on the charge. The aberration prevents the haemy from getting challenged and will tare most things up with 6 S6 instant death 2+ re-roll to wound hits on the charge (thanks to the new changes to poison). The aethersail means you can get in your opponents face, they can either waste their shooting on you (4+ cover save), or assault you (liquifiers on over watch), even if they do destroy the transport the explosion isn't that scary with T5 and 5+ FNP. Really fun unit that really dishes out the pain now that the haemy with power axe can't be singled out any more. Of course they don't get the I7-8 for sweeping advance that a archon/succubus would bring.

I would be careful of Deep Striking your shock troops. If all goes well, they'll arrive on Turn 2 and won't get to assault until Turn 3. That gives your enemies 2 or 3 turns to do damage before you start tearing them apart. If you get a bad roll, by the time you get to them they'll have done so much damage that they can die happy, which is not what we want at all.

On the other hand, if you run them flat out on Turn 1, they can be assaulting by Turn 2. Sure they'll get shot at, but they're going to get shot at anyway, there's simply no way of avoiding that.

I recently tried leaving 2 raiders and a venom full of wyches in reserve. One arrived on turn 2, one on turn 3, and one on turn 4. It didn't go well.