Help against Tau

Hi, I am running a 750 point game against a Tau player and I am unsure of what to bring in a fight against tau or what kind of tactics I should use. I know speed will be a big help for me but it is getting into the range to take them down is the question. Any help would be nice.

Cover saves are your best friend. The only weapons Tau have to negate cover are flamers and a single AFP, if it is chosen. But don't flat out your transports, because you will lose entire squads that way. Instead, try for 25% obscurement from anything with a 4+ save or better (hills & steppes, ruins, rocks, rubble, and especially solid buildings which are 3+. With smaller venoms, try to hide them entirely, and put assault units inside. For Raiders, put ranged units inside and try to poke the vehicle's nose out of cover from something tall enough to block sight of its flank & sail. If you're facings are angled right, it'll get you a +1 to cover, on top of any stealth/shrouding you may have from night fighting.

The end game is to get close, so Mandrakes, oddly enough, are a very good unit against this particular foe. You can infiltrate them with a Haemonculus now, so they get to shoot right away with a bunch of S4 pinning shots that ignore Firewarrior armor. Just look out for the Crisis suits with flamers if he's got any.

Really, a small Tau force like this cannot bring much firepower to bare, so he's hoping to get lucky with his first turns of shooting. After that, you're on top of him and his units are being swept up. The suits are a little tougher, but Wyches or Wracks do just fine, as do S8 AP2 darklight shots (which cause ID).

Thanks for the advice, I am still going to make the list for against Tau but ended up playing against him and he surprised me with Eldar and it turned into a one sided match after my second round of shooting.

Two important things when facing Tau:

1) Never try and out shoot them (it's not going to happen).

2) Getting target saturation right is really important.

Bad target saturation, the raiders are the only units the Grey Knight player can shoot as he can't see the reavers.


Good target saturation, the Tau player has to make choices about whether to shoot the raiders, or shoot the reavers (all the units are a threat).


Here is a long thread about how to fight Tau:

DE versus Tau

If I remember right you play at the 750 points level? Then this battle report may be helpful:

Battle report 6 (vs TAU)

I hope that helps!

Thank you. I have the reports pulled up now and I am reading them. Yeah, for the moment 500 and 750 matches because we don't have much to use for proxies and it allows us to try out different units and see if we can make a style. Thanks again.

I'd advise a fairly combat heavy list with as much targets saturation as possible. Some Reavers, definitely a bunch of venom with wyches and maybe some wracks to take the overwatch hits.
If you can get into assault without too many deaths then you should be fine.

Okay, so I heave learned three lessons from everyone so far about how to fight against tau which means if I end up against tau I will have to chnage up my plans.
1, Cover is my friend, don't ever go out into the open unless you must. (Knew this but cover was being advised to me by Krovin and I read about how cover helped out Mushkilla.)
2, Saturate the field with targets. (Mushkilla and ftayl5 advised this and Mushkilla's battlereport back it up to a T.) going to need work on this seeing as I am not a fan of giving targets to the enemy.
3, Speed, Speed, Speed, got to cut down the distance and go for the throat the Tau. Gotta play aggressive yet safe. Thanks for all the advice guys, this has been an enlightening lesson for me.

Only one question comes to mind, Mushkilla, how did you figure out to make those pictures? It would be nice to use the same system when I give battle reports, see if anyone notices problems with my tactics and hopefully can help me fix them.

AgrealSlade wrote:

Only one question comes to mind, Mushkilla, how did you figure out to make those pictures? It would be nice to use the same system when I give battle reports, see if anyone notices problems with my tactics and hopefully can help me fix them.

I used Battle Chronicler it's simple and easy to use. In my experience writing up my battle reports has been a fantastic learning tool and a great way of sharing experience with the community, I would highly recommend it if you have the time.

Well, I have two reports up right now below the lists that I had for the matches. Should I consider reposting the battles with this program?

Here's another source: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t3583p60-de-versus-tau

I disagree with Krovin. Going flatout combined with target saturation works just fine against Tau. A small squad of 5 Wyches in a Venom/Raider (105/110 pts basecost) is enough to kill off 10 Firewarriors. Make sure to always declare assault with 2 units at 1 unit to minimize Overwatch effects. Consider Raiders for the Dark Lances if you're low on AT, but be aware that they are harder to hide behind cover.

Furthermore, you can't deploy a Heamonculus (or any IC) with Mandrakes, since they're Infiltrators. This has been discussed in the rulessection. So search there for explaination. Plus IMHO I wouldn't consider Mandrakes at 750pts at all. They cost too much for the target saturation to work.

So yeah, most Archons here agree on target saturation against Tau. They can't shoot everything in 1 turn. And when they failed, you'll be in CC the next turn.

Fair points. I must agree about the Haemonculus joining Mandrakes after revisiting the rules. The rulebook is littered with exceptions to global rules in disparate locations, which I find highly annoying, but I digress.

I will say that the flat out tactic is highly dependent on the terrain and units you're working with. If you can gain a 4+ cover save or better while still moving closer and also shooting, I view that as much better than not shooting and risking the whole squad being lost while being within range of more guns or charges. My suggestion is also based on the points level being played at, since at 750 or less, target saturation is not as effective. You simply cannot field that many units, and losing even one is a large portion of your forces.

Devil's advocate though: If there isn't good enough terrain, and you have tiny cheap squads that can't support with ranged firepower (i.e. not KWs or KTs), then going flat out may be your best bet. I would at least try to find a few pieces of terrain you can hide Venoms out of sight behind, if this is happening.

Thanks for the advice. I am going into a Tau battle right now so this tid bit of info really helps.

Edit: Well, I ended up in a match against Tau finally and man was it close. Before we had to call it a night we only got to turn 2 and I finally got the point where I got my hand around the neck of his forces and forced him into assaults with my army.

Please dont double post. If you want to add new infomation, just use the edit button. -Your Friendly Neighborhood Mod SR-

@Krovin:

Fair points aswell, but... Have you fought Tau recently? Not to be cheeky. Creeping up to the enemy hugging cover works better against marine style armies IMHO. If Tau gets 2+ turns of shooting with full force the 4+ and 5+ coversaves are only going to help you a little. 5 Wyches in a Venom cost 105 pts at minimum. So (quickly out of my head without the codex at hand) at 750 pts you could I think field like 3 Venoms with 5 Wyches each and 1 Raider with 5 Wyches and a Succubus (low cost HQ) and still have points left for a Ravager, Haywire grenades (or hekatrix + powerweapon for CC against suits) and a SC on each Venom. At 750 pts this is considered 'target saturation'.

Also remember that with 6th the game already begins at Terrain deployment. As you roll a D3 now per boardsection for terrain, you must place appropiate terrein. Put enough LOS blocking terrain on your own deployment zone, in the middle of the board and even in the Tau's player's deploymentzone (for when you need to hide as you go flatout).

@AgrealSlade

Could you elaborate a bit. What list did you end up with? What did you do? What went well and what didn't go so well?

@ SR, sorry about the double post thing. DIdin't realize that when I made a post a few hours after my original one it counted as double posting so I'll know now.

@tlronin
My normal list for a battle is in this thread.
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t3903-dark-eldar-750-points-revamped-and-used-list

However, I changed alot of things up so I'll post the one time army list and the answer to your questions and why I changed what I changed.

Squad 1
HQ Succubus with a Venom Blade
9 Wyches with Haywire Gernades and one Hydra Gauntlet (One of the wyches were upgraded to a heaxatrix with a venom blade)
Raider with Envenomed Blade, Flicker Shield,

Squad 2
HQ Succubus with a Venom Blade
9 Wyches with Haywire Gernades and one Hydra Gauntlet (One of the wyches were upgraded to a heaxatrix with a venom blade)
Raider with Envenomed Blade, Flicker Shield,

Squad 3
4 Reavers with a Heat Lance

Squad 4
4 Reavers with a Heat Lance

Reasons for chnages.
Normally, I have venoms with kabalite warriors on board for moving fast and to rapid fire into the enemy. However, I knew that my enemy knew about that tactic and was probably had things ready for that so I changed them out to allocate points to make two reaver squads. I knew they would get attacked the most since they shred up the player last time which would be okay with me. I took out the pain engine because it could only move 12 inches a turn and would probably get picked off before he had a chance to do a thing. So, with the venoms and pain engine out, I made two squads of my raider crew and two squads of reavers.

Going in, my plan was to use the reavers to keep him preoccupied while the raiders made their way into his lines and force him into assault.

The battlefield. Very little cover and I ended up placing my reavers behind my raiders for cover until I could deploy them out onto the battlefield.

What happened. I failed to steal the first turn so he spent the next half hour shooting on me. I was right he would go after my reavers first. He moved crisis suits to the front and started to unload on them. He failed to kill the reavers and during assault, he jumped back to get some distance between him and me.

My first turn I was able to close half the gap between him and me with my raiders and my reavers were able to hit his crisis suits during movement. I was able to get one raider out of combat range of one of the tanks he had but my other raider was staring down the rest of his forces. Once I got shooting over and softened him up some, I went into assault. One reaver squad assault a crisis suit group and the other reaver squad assaulted a crisis suit and flame warrior squad. I was able to weaken the two squads against my reavers to the point he needed to do a Leadership check and was able to stay in combat. My other reaver squad was able to knock his crisis suit group down to one wound each.

When I turned it over to him, he got his men around my two raiders and he looked like he was given a present on christmas. He first opened fire on the raider that was staring down his group and destroyed it and the explosion hit one of his HQs and the fire warrior group still in assault with my reavers. I lost a bit of my men in the raider and made my check and stood my group while his HQ survived and he lost a firewarrior. He then opened fired on the crew that was inside the raider and killed every last one of them. He then used the tank that had line of sight on my other raider and opened fire on it, destroying it and forcing me to do rolls on my squad and the reavers nearby. I was able to stand enough wounds and only lost a wych and my reavers acted like nothing happened. Then we measured the distance and found out that his crisis suits, two sniper squads, and his HQ were all in range of the explosion. This was the turning point. He failed wound saves on each of the groups except the HQ and had to do leadership roles and rolled double sixes on each of them. I lost a raider, he routed three of his own squads off of the board. Then when the assault came, he failed to take out my reavers that were on two of his squads and I took out more of the crisis suit and the fire warriors but he made the checks for them.

MY second round of movement got my freed up reavers to move against his third crisis suit unit which also hit his third sniper squad doing some wounds on the crisis suits. My wyches and succubus opened fire on a second fire warrior squad and knocked some of his troops down. Then, in my assault, I moved the freed up reaver squad to be able to assault his crisis suit unit and sniper squad and my wyches and succubus was able to move up to asault his tank and second fire warrior squad. He could no longer shoot me and I was ready to shred him to pieces now.

However, I found out when we ended it because we ran out of time and called it a draw that his army had more points then the agreed upon amount for both our armies which explained why he had so many troops and tanks out for his little bit of points.

So, what worked. If you have the points to spare, get flicker shields. They come in real handy at times and regardless if you think you are going against tanks or not, get haywire grenades on your wyches, infact, make that a standard. each wych has to have haywire grenades on them. Never know when they will help you out, I know they would have helped me out if I had enough time to finish the rest of the game. Lastly, speed is your friend when you go against shooting armies. You need to close the distance fast.

What also worked in my favor was an enemy who couldn't roll to save his backside when it came down to it.

What didn't work. Honestly, I feel that having those raiders might have hindered me some in the long run. Also, him having a bigger point army then me also didn't help out.

Also, he kept referring to my army as the glass hammer... yeah... his army couldn't stand up to me getting in close enough... I wonder who the real glass hammer is then?

Wow. Where to begin?

I'll begin at the end, seems logical. Not to insult you, but you know the concept of 'Glass Hammer' right? Dark Eldar are the definition of a glass hammer. When we dish out hurt, we dish out good. But when we get hurt back, we get hurt bad. So aslong as we dictate the game we win. When we need to react all the time to the opponent, we lose (rather simply put).

Note: How did you figure a Pain Engine can move 12" btw? Have I missed something in the rulebook?

About your list. Don't understand why you didn't split up your squads in 2 and placed them in 4 Venoms. More targets. More SCs to poison crisis suits to death. More chance of getting 5 models in CC after overwatch. Free flickerfields (which is kind of negated by the fact that you'll want that 2nd SC).

About the very little cover. I don't understand. You know that in 6th you have to roll a D3 for each 2' by 2' to see how much pieces of terrain go on there right? I rolled a 1 for each section in my game against Tau! And still I had enough cover... So you must've been doing something wrong.

Then we get to the next point. If you had placed terrain right you would've been able to withstand a turn of Tau shooting better. Did you roll for Night Fighting by the way? Helps too. But apparantly you got lucky and nothing died in Tau's 1st turn of shooting?

Brings me to your 1st turn. Did you just write that you moved over crisis suits with your Reavers and then assault them with the same Reavers? You know you have to Turbo Boost to bladevane right? And you can't do any voluntary move after that? So if you did, that was illegal.

Now Tau's turn 2. The reason I tell you that terrain placement is important and flatout is important is: If you give him nice big ruïns or fortifications to hide behind on his deploymentzone, this means that when you flatout with Venoms (I'm going with the Venoms from here on) you can hide after going flatout on his deploymentzone aswell! The Tau units that dó see you have to deal with a 4+ coversave. I got lucky in my fight against Tau and he only managed to wreck a Raider and destroy a weapon off the other. So I imagine on average stuff will explode. But in this example, he can't make áll Venoms explode, if you play it right. Do you understand what I mean?

Your turn 2. Did you remember to chuck those plasma grenades prior to assaulting? I forgot it too in my battle. In my battle I was fighting in turn 2 aswell, with most of my Wyches intact. Remember if you're taking smaller squads of 5 models (which is the case in this example), make sure to always declare the assault with 2 squads on 1 of the enemy's squad to cancel out most of the Overwatch effects (you'll ALWAYS end up with 5 intact Wyches this way, no matter how lucky the bastard is throwing 6s).

Last but not least. Yeah seems like a botched game anyway. Lot of rules not done properly. Your conclusions are right in general. Haywire grenades are a must for Wyches in ány game. But I would like to add to your conclusion that you should've gone for going flatout and gaining those 4+ and 3+ coversaves.

What about Aegis Defense Line in tau armies. im going to play Tau player who will use ADL and all Broadsides and 1 Hammerhead behind it. My question is, does Hammerhead gets 4+ save from AGL? I would say no, as its skimmer and hovering above, but I know Tau guy will say something different .
And how do you deal with such 2+/4++ Broadsides behind AGL? 50% of lances will bounce off, and we dont have as many lances as in previous codex.
Most of my long range shooting are splinter cannons, but I suppose (not good with mathhammer), shooting SC's to kill 2+ Broadsides is not smartest thing to do.

I know ppl here suggested to engage tau in cc, but what if my list doesnt have anything for cc? I had terrible experiences with both Wyches and Beasts in 6th, and I usually find Kabalite Warriors with Blasters to do a lot more kiling.

ADL grants 4+ coversave. Good discussion about this here: http://tomahawc.forumotion.com/t55-cover-from-the-aegis-defense-line

How to counter it? If he really has spend alot of points on broadsides and hammerhead you'll be better off ignoring them and getting into CC with his troops (Firwarriors/Kroot) as quick as possible. Other than that, see if you can get an angle where you can get a clean shot with your Ravager(s) (I assume you field them). If they are entrenched in 1 corner, flatout with the Ravagers 1 turn to outflank them and get clear shots the next turn (4+ coversave + smart cover hugging + NS will safe them). Broadsides can be taken down by SCs by the way too. So if you're fielding alot of Venoms (which is a good idea for target saturation) you can send them off to hunt broadsides after spilling their cargo. Buy the 2nd SC for more poisonned shots per Venom. Imagine 4 Venoms firing 12 shots (48 shots) into the broadsides. Something's gotta give. The 2+ is ofcourse a problem, you could also look at dissies to hunt broadsides. AP2 will ignore it.

I would even throw your Warriors into CC with Tau. The problem is that you want to keep Tau from shooting each turn as much as possible. That's why CC is a múst with Tau. If you want to win, you have no choice. Don't try to outshoot them...

750? i cant help you in that, other than cc them to hell! Your worst cc unit - aka warriors - will be able to kill them! But you should use wyches, they are more fun for that, and pale ladies in latex thongs are good for you
On the matter, i would go succu with VB, you may want to add a blast pistol, unites of wyches in venoms, maybe a unite of BB in a raider with the succu. Personally i would use Incubi, but they are to expensive for a 750 game...well as a single shocktroop unite, and they need backup.

Or, as said above: go reavers and bladevane the greater good out of them tau. Itz good for youh.

@ tlronin

BTW - 5th edition rulebook is the only one we have and whenever I try to get the rule book from them to learn more of the rules so I know what to expect but both of the players wern't exactly helpful. Luck would have it, another player gave me a mini version of the rule book for free, a little tattered, but now I can't start finding out the things that they wouldn't tell me.

I'll answer your questions in order.

He kept saying they are suppose to be the glass hammer over and over as if he was thinking he had won the battle long before we started the game so thats why I put my remark about glass hammer.

As for the pain engine, moves six inches in movement and then six inches in assault hence the 12 inches.

As for my list, yeah I messed up on it which I will learn my lesson from. My raiders are nice to have but honestly I do prefer my venoms when it comes to speed.

As for cover, 5th edition and we didn't have much to use for cover so we used some pieces of old toys for cover.

Didn't know you roll for night fighting.

I didn't know that, still learning.

I understand what you mean, I am still trying to learn the different tricks of the trade for DE but I am certain I am on the right path and with the right army.

I asked about my grenades but the player couldn't give me an answer I could understand and when I took the book from him I couldn't understand what it was saying so if you could help clarify it for me I would really appreciate that so I can use them next time.

Yeah, cover will be helpful for me from now on so I will see what I can do about that now.

Thank you for your help.

Cover is not your friend at all because marker lights lol at cover, get to them as fast as you can and DO NOT CHARGE FULL UNITS OF FIRE WARRIORS, the overwatch will tear wyches a new butt hole.

Kill Broadsides and all the suits first, those little buggers are annoying, if the person you are playing isn't a moron it will be hard to ever get a clear shot at them so charge them or get close and unload. Broadsides are terrifying and need to be killed with fire, shoot the drones with poison till they die and than shoot lances at the broadsides and watch them melt.

Take Night Shields if you know whats good for you; you need to cut as much of their range as possible. Someone said DE cannot out shoot Tau, this I disagree with, you just need to pick your targets wisely it's not easy by any means but it's not impossible either.

Night shields are great. I cherish the bulging veins in my friend's forehead when I tell him that his fire warriors aren't in range for rapid fire, or his big scary gun is *just* out of reach now.

Green = tlronin

AgrealSlade wrote:

@ tlronin

BTW - 5th edition rulebook is the only one we have and whenever I try to get the rule book from them to learn more of the rules so I know what to expect but both of the players wern't exactly helpful. Luck would have it, another player gave me a mini version of the rule book for free, a little tattered, but now I can't start finding out the things that they wouldn't tell me.

So, were you playing 5th or 6th edtion now? Just to be clear, all my previous post and the coming posts are about 6th. I don't look back to 5th anymore.

I'll answer your questions in order.

He kept saying they are suppose to be the glass hammer over and over as if he was thinking he had won the battle long before we started the game so thats why I put my remark about glass hammer.

Sounds like a very unfriendly opponent then.

As for the pain engine, moves six inches in movement and then six inches in assault hence the 12 inches.

Well, in 6th you roll 2 D6 for assault range. So your Talos could potentially move 18". But also 8" if you're unlucky.

As for my list, yeah I messed up on it which I will learn my lesson from. My raiders are nice to have but honestly I do prefer my venoms when it comes to speed.

To be clear, you don't need to take Venoms because they're faster than Raiders. 'Cause they are not. Heck Raiders could even be faster because of aether sails. You take Venoms for their SCs and because they're smaller, so easier to hide.

As for cover, 5th edition and we didn't have much to use for cover so we used some pieces of old toys for cover.

Right. No wonder you were screwed.

Didn't know you roll for night fighting.

6th edition.

I didn't know that, still learning.

Well you don't own a copy of 6th edition, so you couldn't know.

I understand what you mean, I am still trying to learn the different tricks of the trade for DE but I am certain I am on the right path and with the right army.

I asked about my grenades but the player couldn't give me an answer I could understand and when I took the book from him I couldn't understand what it was saying so if you could help clarify it for me I would really appreciate that so I can use them next time.

Well it's pretty clear in the 6th edition rulebook. So once you get a copy you'll know how to chuck grenades.

Yeah, cover will be helpful for me from now on so I will see what I can do about that now.

1 movingbox filled with cover is all you need to once and for all get rid of the "sorry I don't have cover" BS.

Thank you for your help.

You're welcome.

callofdoobie wrote:

Cover is not your friend at all because marker lights lol at cover, get to them as fast as you can and DO NOT CHARGE FULL UNITS OF FIRE WARRIORS, the overwatch will tear wyches a new butt hole.

Kill Broadsides and all the suits first, those little buggers are annoying, if the person you are playing isn't a moron it will be hard to ever get a clear shot at them so charge them or get close and unload. Broadsides are terrifying and need to be killed with fire, shoot the drones with poison till they die and than shoot lances at the broadsides and watch them melt.

Take Night Shields if you know whats good for you; you need to cut as much of their range as possible. Someone said DE cannot out shoot Tau, this I disagree with, you just need to pick your targets wisely it's not easy by any means but it's not impossible either.

@callofdoobie: I think we'll have to agree on disagreeing. While we actually agree, so that's funny. It seems though on first sight that you rebel against everything I said. Because I was the one who said: "Do not outshoot Tau." And i'll stand by it. But the funny thing is that your reply is a contradiction on itself. You start your post yourself with: "get to them as fast as you can" and you give advice to charge the broadsides. But there's a difference between: "Don't try to outshoot them" and "forget shooting alltogether". I never said we can't dish out the hurt through our firepower. We have nice DLs on our Ravagers and Heatlances on our Reavers to make a mess of any hammerhead or broadside they can throw at us.
But you are mistaken to play the same game as Tau. Our strength lies in the opponent's weakness. And with Tau that's assault. Furthermore they can only put markerlights on units with their Pathfinders. They only strip off 1 of the coversave per marker. They can only target 1 unit a gameturn. Keep in mind you'll ussually only see 1 unit of Pathfinders because the Tau player múst purchase a Devilfish with them aswell. The Pathfinders could for instance be run down by Reavers very efficiently. But I ussually just keep stuff out of LOS (not a problem in 6th if you're smarter with terrain placement).
As for not charging Firewarriors, I've said many times now to charge with 2 squads of 5 Wyches. You'll always know that 5 Wyches will make it in combat. In my games versus Tau I've been so lucky to actually have around 7 to 8 in combat on average. Besides how would you get rid of Firewarriors reliably then (besides running them over with Reavers again which works pretty well)? They have a 4+ armoursave you know. Shooting doesn't seem like an option to me.
Also, try to charge them while they are in cover. Our plasma nades will make us fight on our own Initiative. Plus the PGL you bought for your Hekatrix (which you did) will give you defensive grenades. Which will give you a coversave within 8" against shoot (includig Overwatch). So now you can take that 5+ coversave area terrein and make it into a 4+ coversave. Now, flip up that middle finger to Firewarrior's overwatch.

So yeah I wouldn't play the same game, shooting, because Tau do this much better. I'd try everything in my power to assault.

@Tlronin Yeah, playing out of 5th edition still since I can't get my hands on a sixth edition book. One question, whats a moving box filled with cover exactly have?

@Greenest I know the feeling man. When I played against the same player but he used Eldar and I had night shields I was able to get close without him being able to open fire on me and I was able to unload on him. In fact, I think I saw the neck vein thing on a space marine army player when he tried to open fire with his tank and he was just an inch to short to open fire.

I ment pieces of Terrain. Just buy cheap on Ebay or something some ruïns, a fortication, some woods perhaps. Bunkers, trenches. Stuff that you can use as cover in your games.

Got it, thanks for the help man.