Pheonix Lords

Hey everyone! WARNING: This post is long, but I thought this would be better than 4 different threads.

In an effort to check out what our good-natured breathren have to offer, I decided to look for ways to best utilize the Pheonix Lords as allies for a Dark Eldar list. This is inspired partly by the lists that keep cropping up around the net with Maugan Ra and Fuegan. I figured it would be a good idea to see how we can best take advantage of the PLs. I've only done ones for Maugan Ra, Fuegan, Karandras, and Baharroth, because Jain Zar and Asurmen simply don't offer anything that I can see.

This also may or may not work, depending on how the exarch powers interact with other units. Basically, each PL has exarch powers, which used to only work for their aspect, i.e. Fuegan gave a unit of Fire Dragons Tank Hunters. There is an FAQ entry, which may or may not be outdated, that states that his Exarch powers only affectsa unit of Fire Dragons. Now, the rulebook reads that if one model has certain rules, then the entire unit benefits. So, Fuegan with a unit of Blasterborn would mean the entire unit had Tank Hunters. This doesn't contradict the FAQ, since he isn't affecting the unit with his Exarch power, but merely satisfying the requirement that one model must have the special rule. I believe, after careful deliberation, that this is in fact true. I have yet to find someone who adamantly says otherwise, but there are people who seem to be on the fence.

Below, you will find 4 lists, all at 2000 points.

Maugan Ra

Urien Rakarth
Baron Sathonyx
Maugan Ra

7 Master Grotesques, Liquifier Gun, Aberration, Mindphase Gauntlet - 310

20 Warriors, 2 Splinter Cannons, Blaster, Sybarite, Venom Blade, PGL - 250
10 Wyches, HWG, Hekatrix, PGL, Venom Blade - 145
5 Wracks, Liquifer Gun - 60
3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66

4 Beastmasters, 4 Khymerae, 1 Clawed Fiend, 4 Razorwing Flocks - 196
9 Reavers, 3 Heat Lances, Arena Champion, Venom Blade - 249

Razorwing Jetfighter - 145

Aegis Defense Line, Icarus Lascannon - 85

Strategy: This is inspired greatly/practically copied from hyv3mynd at Synaps3, and honestly doesn't really abuse the PL as much as the other lists. However, we have one very threatening unit with the Grotesques (3 pain tokens immediately, S7 on the charge, and one of the toughest Warlords in the game), and pretty resilient shock attack unit with the Beasts+Baron, and you can throw Maugan Ra in with the 20 Warriors to man the Icarus (with Fast/Crack Shot), or the Beasts to make them Fearless. This is a foot list (again, I ripped it from hyv3mynd), but with a lot of tough, Fearless units that aren't going to give up easily. We also end up with a Reaver unit to threaten up close, and a Jetbike unit for extra objectives.

Baharroth

Asdrubael Vect
Baron Sathonyx
Baharroth

4 Beastmasters, 5 Khymerae, 6 Razorwing Flocks - 198
4 Beastmasters, 5 Khymerae, 6 Razorwing Flocks - 198

5 Wyches, HWG, Venom, Splinter Cannon, Night Shields - 135
5 Wyches, HWG, Venom, Splinter Cannon, Night Shields - 135
5 Wyches, HWG, Venom, Splinter Cannon, Night Shields - 135
10 Warriors, Blaster, Splinter Cannon - 115
3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66

3 Scatterlaser Warwalkers - 180

Razorwing Jetfighter - 145
Razorwing Jetfighter - 145

Strategy: Baharroth gives Fearless and Hit & Run (two of the best rules for combat units) to a Beastmaster unit, and Baron and Vect combine to give it to the other one (while also giving Preferred Enemy, Stealth, and Grenades). Also, if I remember right, Vect's squad isn't slowed down too terribly much because you no longer move everyone at the speed of the slowest, but just move each model their speed and maintain coherency (can anyone confirm this for me?). This gives us two really hard-hitting units, plus we have a great opportunity to dictate who is going first with both +1 to the roll and a 4+ sieze. The Allies also bring the obvious Jetbikes for last-second objective grabbing and Scatterlasers for more ranged anti-tank. Razorwings were more of a fun choice, and could be replaced with Ravagers to help with ranged anti-tank as well.

Fuegan

Archon, Shadow Field, Venom Blade, Husk Blade - 130
Haemonculus, Venom Blade, Power Ax, Liquifier Gun - 75
Haemonculus, Venom Blade, Power Ax, Shatter Shard - 80
Fuegan

20 Warriors, 2 Dark Lances, Sybarite, PGL - 270
9 Wyches, HWG, Hekatrix, Venom Blade, PGL, Raider - 193
9 Wyches, HWG, Hekatrix, Venom Blade, PGL, Raider - 193
9 Wyches, HWG, Hekatrix, Venom Blade, PGL, Raider - 193
3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66

9 Reavers, 3 Heat Lances, Arena Champion, Power Ax - 254
9 Reavers, 3 Heat Lances, Arena Champion, Power Ax - 254

Aegis Defence Line, Icarus Lascannon - 85

Strategy: Another list with a large blob unit, but also a theme: every unit has an AP2 close combat weapon. The blob has Fearless, can start with FNP all-around if I want to do pain token shenanigans, has defensive grenades to scare off assaults, and also Tank Hunters on 2 Dark Lances plus the Icarus (and Firepike if the opponent gets close enough). The Wyches are actually fairly scary up close thanks to the AP2. Again, 3 basic Jetbikes for objectives.

Karandras

Karandras
Archon, Shadow Field, PGL, Husk Blade - 150
Haemonculus, Power Ax, Shatter Shard - 75

9 Grotesques, Liquifier Gun, Aberration, Venom Blade - 340

5 Wyches, HWG, Venom, Splinter Cannon - 125
5 Wyches, HWG, Venom, Splinter Cannon - 125
5 Wracks, Liquifier Gun, Venom, Splinter Cannon - 125
6 Wracks, Acothyst - 70
3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66

9 Reavers, 3 Heat Lances, Arena Champion, Venom Blade - 249
9 Reavers, 3 Heat Lances, Arena Champion, Venom Blade - 249

Ravager - 105
Ravager - 105

Strategy: Karandras has Infiltrate. Infiltrate restricts ICs from joining a unit of Infiltrators, but does NOT restrict an infiltrating IC from joining a unit of non-Infiltrators and letting them benefit (because, only one model is needed). So, we Infiltrate Karandras, the Archon, and the Haemonculus with the Grotesques. 12 models with majority T5, 3 AP2 weapons, a 2+ Eternal Warrior and a 2++ model, both types of grenades, Stealth, and FNP/Furious Charge for most of them. The 6 Wracks can sit back on an objective and GtG repeatedly if necessary, the Jetbikes steal objectives (again), and everything else threatens quickly. Because of the immediate threat of the Grotesques, the Wyches and Reavers should (hopefully) be unscathed for a little bit. Obviously the Grotesques can not assault their first turn, but they don't need to. They just need to soak fire for a shooting phase or two, and then go to town. This list could also switch the Baron in for the Archon, saving a few points to help work in another Venom or Raider maybe, and also providing Hit & Run for the Grotesques.

So, there's my take on the Pheonix Lords, and how they are best (ab)used. Even if you aren't able to take advantage of their Exarch skills, they still have the benefit of conferring Fearless and be T4 EW 2+ to go alongside Drazhar.

Thank you all for your patience in this exercise. I hope this promotes some good discussion, and maybe even helps a few people think a bit outside the box.

pretty sure pheonix lords powers only confer to units of their aspect mate, might wanna double check that

Yep... Eldar FAQ says they only work on aspects

Massaen wrote:

Yep... Eldar FAQ says they only work on aspects

The exarch powers don't need to work on the unit, all they need to do is confer the special rule to a single model, in this case the phoenix lord.

Some examples:

The shadow strike exarch power, won't be conferred to non-aspect units. However it doesn't need to be as it confers the infiltrate special rule to Karandras. Karandras has infiltrate, and as per the infiltrate special rule if a model in the unit has infiltrate then the whole unit may infiltrate.

The tank hunter exarch power, won't be conferred to non-aspect units. However it doesn't need to be as it confers the tank hunter special rule to Fuegan. Fuegan has tank hunter, and as per the tank hunter special rule if a model in the unit has tank hunter then the whole unit benefits.

Hope that helps.

yeah, be prepared for people to call shenanigans on that one :-)
its the whole RAW/RAI thing once more

I agree, I would be calling a judge if at a tourney as to me the RAI seems pretty straight forward. The exarch powers are 4th Ed prior to the whole 'one in all I'm special rules and it seems straight forward what the FAQ is trying to achieve.

true massen, but the arguement comes down to this.

Is the PL a member of his aspect? (i.e. is Fuegan a fire dragon or is Kharandras a striking scorpion)?

Does the power confer to that aspect?

If yes to both of those questions, then the PL gets those bonuses.

The BGB says if one model has that bonus, then the entire squad has that bonus.

There isnt any ifs or buts about it. The BGB is clear on which special rules spread to the squad, and it just so happens that tank hunters and infiltrate do. Its not like he is taking Jain Zar and giving everyone FC (which you cant as FC isnt one of those that confers to the squad) Its simple and straight forward. The only way you could bring doubt into this is if you try and argue that because the PL itself isnt his aspect (i.e. Fuegan doesnt count as a fire dragon) he wouldnt get the bonus from the exarch power, but I think even that is covered in the wording of the exarch powers (I dont have my codex on me atm)

The second last question of the FAQ seems to disagree

I had addressed all of your concerns in my original post. I appreciate your discussion, but I feel as though my explanation was suitable thanks to the difference in wording, and your counterpoint is not satisfactory, since you merely suggest I read the FAQ that I already referenced and countered.

Either way, if things were ruled as you see, it would only really affect the Karandras list. Fuegan would only lose a little bit with his squad, and Maugan Ra and Baharroth would lose nothing, as their lists aren't using their exarch powers at all for their squads' sakes, but other Special Rules.

So, any critiques from you guys on those three lists? Or, does anyone have anything else to say about the Karandras list?

How is the FAQ saying you can't use the exarch powers on non aspects not satisfactory??

The grey area around hit and run and stealth (as both specify who it can affect in the PL entry) aside, I just don't see how you can read the fact that the exarch power only affects the aspect unit any other way.

So, no comments on the lists otherwise?

Mushkilla and Shadows Revenge already explained it in detail, but I suppose I can do it again.

Karandras' power gives him, and his unit, Infiltrate. The FAQ says that his power doesn't affect his unit if it is not his Aspect. This means it would not give the unit Infiltrate.

Now, let us put him in a unit of Grotesques.

In 5th edition, an entire unit needed to have Infiltrate in order to benefit. Since the FAQ specifies that only Striking Scorpions are affected, the Grotesques would not have Infiltrate, which means they could not use it.

In 6th edition, only one model in a unit needs to have Infiltrate in order to benefit. Since the FAQ specifies that only Striking Scorpions are affected, the Grotesques would not have Infiltrate - BUT Karandras does, and he satisfies the "one model" requirement.

That is the argument. That is why the FAQ is not satisfactory. It is worded like a 5th edition entry. If it were meant for 6th edition, there are ways to word it appropriately. They updated every FAQ in great detail when 6th released, and many have had another update since. They caught a lot of issues around the massive changes to the game, and could have done something with this. They didn't. To suggest that (RAI) they meant for it to be your way is as absurd as suggesting that they didn't want Vect to give out Preferred Enemy and Fearless because he has it due to his combat expertise he's honed for 10,000 years.

Along those same lines, the PL all have Fearless, and they have a special rule saying they make their Aspect Fearless if joined to them. Are you suggesting that, because this special rule exists, we have to ignore the way the rulebook tells us to handle units with at least one model who is Fearless, because RAI they should only give it to their Aspect?

You are right that it is a 4th edition codex, and wording causes problems between editions. You are wrong that the FAQ has any bearing on this though.

I guess we will agree to disagree then. To me, the FAQ makes RAI pretty clear.

That said, on the topic of the lists, I applaud you for looking at ways outside the box to use these characters. I agree Jain zar offers nothing you can't get from another PL or Drazhar and that Asurman is inferior to the others as well thought the 4++ with eternal makes him a fair speed bump for challenges.

I personally think using Feugan or Maugan Ra on a quadgun is a waste when the cost is considered. I would rather them in the thick of things with Grots or the like.

I do like the idea of infiltrating different units and despite my personal opinion on the wording, can see hilarity with a good size unit of harlequins rather than Grots for sheer damage output

As for baharroth, I still see him as too pricy for what he brings

Drazhar is the best PL for the DE army.

Massaen wrote:

The second last question of the FAQ seems to disagree

Not to continue this arguement, but I would like to point out that the Q@A pointed out by Massaen is one they carried over from the 5th ed FAQ, and was when you needed the entire unit to have infiltrate to actually use the ability. While they did an extensive FAQ on each codex, they did it half heartedly by just carrying over the entire 5th ed FAQ and adding to it.