Advice against certain IA and FW units

So I dont really play with the local gamestore here, we are just a group of friends that play together and turnements around here are a long travel but we take the trip.

So now when the first local turnement in like 12 years is in the making I want to take my DE to it.

After reading the rules and stuff for the turnement I have to admit I'm not really happy, but its still the first local turnement in a while, so I will most likely attend. Now I know how to field an competitive turnement army list and play it well against GW rules and lists.

Problem are that they are allowing the following:
IA 1: Imperial Guard & Imperial Navy 2003
IA 2: Space Marines & Forces of the Inquisition 2004
IA 3: The Taros Campaign 2005
IA 4: The Anphelion Project 2006 IA: Apocalypse 2007
IA 5: The Siege of Vraks vol 1 2007
IA 6: The Siege of Vraks vol 2 2008
IA 7: The Siege of Vraks vol 3 2009
IA: Apocalypse II 2009
IA 8: The Raid on Kastorel-Novem 2010
IA 9: The Badab War vol 1 2010
IA 10: The Badab War vol 2 2011
IA: Apocalypse 2nd edition 2011
IA 11: The Doom of Mymeara 2012
IA: Aeronautica 2012

But the following are not allowed: Super Heavies, Garguantuan Creatures, Monstrous Creatures med Mass Points, Legendary Units and Apocalypse Battle Formations.

Experimental rules for FW cant be used.

I dont really know what to expect for all these stuff, I dont want to come there and meet some real nastys and have my target priority screwed all up, aswell as dont know what to look out for.

So any advice?

The hades breaching drill.

This thing has rhino armour and 2 HP, but when it comes in it puts out a large blast with S10 AP1 melta. That even destroy terrain, like D-strength blasts in Apocalypse. And then your vets pop out of the holes it leaves behind. Once it enters, it can go around blasting people with it's meltadrill, but it's probably going to die afterwards...assuming anything is left standing. And on top of this, it's elite but doesn't take up a slot in force organization. Finally the model is cheap by forgeworld standards making it readily available to the masses. If a tournament allows forge world it's because someone wants to run these things!

It is hands down one of the most ridiculous things forge world has ever come up with. Fear it.

The Hades breaching drill is not that scary. Sure it might hit (you roll the scatter dice to see where it emerges) and it does hit hard - but it comes in at the earliest on turn 2, and I vaguely recall something about the grenadiers only coming in the turn after that. Usually it's just a one-shot template.

As a TO myself I do allow FW on request. That is, if someone wants to use a certain list or unit they can write me and I'll tell them if it's okay or not.

So far there is only very few ridiculous units that I cannot allow.

Those units are auto cannon turret chimeras. That basically is like giving an IG player 10 extra auto cannons for 50 points total.

The lucius pattern drop pod, which you can charge e.g. iron clad dreads straight into combat from.

... and that's about it.

Usually a FW list, no matter which IA book it's from is slightly overcosted for what it can do.

If you don't want any surprises in-game, ask your opponent before deployment what his units can do if he's not telling you by himself. How is that unlike seeing a codex army with units you don't know?

Septimus wrote:

If you don't want any surprises in-game, ask your opponent before deployment what his units can do if he's not telling you by himself. How is that unlike seeing a codex army with units you don't know?

Always do that but then again I know all the GW units, so its easier to know what will happen etc.
Mostly its about me getting the army list correct. See if there really is something that changes the game so much I might need to change my list.

If you already have a balanced list that can deal with all the codexes then it can also handle a FW list or units.

The only real game changers I've seen so far are the aforementioned auto cannon spam chimeras and lucius pattern drop pods.

Might want to watch out for some of the FW flier models for the guard. Had a guy want to proxy an avenger. Frakkin nutz.

Luckily, most of the ForgeWorld stuff is all armour. So you just glance it to death like any other armoured vehicle.

Usually the ForgeWorld stuff isn't any worse than what is in the book, and doesn't change the army that much. The two exceptions in my mind are Orks and Tau. Orks get tons of things that slightly change the dynamic of the army and play big on the whole 'wacky orks' thing; Lifta Droppa wagons for example. Tau get some awesome additional units, like tetras, and some great new loadouts for battlesuits and Hammerheads.

The Eldar Corsairs list is worth looking into as well, a lot of flyers, and jet pack troops. Very fast moving list.

I have no problem with lucius drop pods now that dreads get hit on WS with grenades. If you get caught by them without an answer, then thats just bad list building...

The Autocannon chimeras are pretty OP, but its almost no different than a multilaser. Use your discresion with them. Also the avenger is pretty OP as flyers are concerned.

Pretty much my thing is if someone buys it, let them use it. Nothing I have seen is pretty over the top, and while some are really good, any well balanced list will be able to handle them.

My only problem with FW rules is my lack of familiarity with them. I own or have access to all of the current codexes but I have only 1 FW book so anything that comes from any of the other books is something that I am totally in the dark about.

Septimus wrote:

Usually a FW list, no matter which IA book it's from is slightly overcosted for what it can do.

If you don't want any surprises in-game, ask your opponent before deployment what his units can do if he's not telling you by himself. How is that unlike seeing a codex army with units you don't know?

This is my take on FW stuff as well. You usually aren't going to see a full FW list, but rather a vehicle here and there. Your opponents will generally gladly tell you what their shiny FW toys do (they're expensive, not easy to get here in the US, and more on the rare side- as such, people are proud of them and will be excited to tell you what they do). Most of them do one thing well, and pay a HEFTY premium for that ability. For example, the Eldar Firestorm is a great AA tank with 6 shots, Interceptor, Skyfire....and it's 180pts Some of the units are great for the points. Eldar Nightwings are an awesome buy for 145pts (Vector Dancer is where it's at; if you've used it, you know what I mean!)

In short, I wouldn't sweat it. I'll echo the sentiments of the previous posts: If you're list is balanced and can handle regular lists, it will do fine.

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I have no problem with lucius drop pods now that dreads get hit on WS with grenades. If you get caught by them without an answer, then thats just bad list building...

You're implying that my list is bad (reasonable I guess as most people have bad lists)... but you don't even consider that several armies don't have access to grenades, or another answer to an iron clad first turn charge, to go with the example scenario.

As a TO it's my job to ensure a level playing field for all legal armies.

It's not that bad if you have an army that has access to awesome AT grenades - but not all armies can do that. Besides, is it fair that you have to make a list with enough wych bubble wrap to prevent a lucius pattern alpha strike? How many wyches do you need to mitigate 2 lucius pattern pods for a mere 130 points?

Lucius pods only take 1 Fast choice each and are pretty cheap for what you get; the ability to tie key units in a lot of different army builds.

What about tyranids?

Daemons?

Tau? I don't think tau have any AT grenades - if they have I have never seen a tau player use them

Orks?

All the armies with S6 grenades - that's not going to be much help vs. AV13.

65 points for a complete game change where you force your opponent to castle? That's a bit too good for the investment.

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The Autocannon chimeras are pretty OP, but its almost no different than a multilaser. Use your discresion with them

Again, you come across like you only see it from a DE player's point of view. S7 does make quite a difference vs. rhinos, chimeras and flyers.
If you allow auto cannon turret chimeras, IG will be the only army that can take 10 (real) heavy weapons for only 50 points - it's not exactly like IG has a lack of that kind in the first place.

10 auto cannon turret chimeras deployed on the back line with inf + 1 autocannon inside (you could get more with heavy weapon team squads and stick 3 AC out of the hatch) - that's at least 40 auto cannon shots with 48" range ... and some guys complain about 3 GK psyfle dreads...

Septimus wrote:

Tau? I don't think tau have any AT grenades - if they have I have never seen a tau player use them

they have EMP grenades...and no, they are rarely used(WS2)

So from what I have read so far, my usual venomspam list should do fine then.
Are considering buying a razorwing and try and fit in to the list tho, even tho I'm not a fan at all, and the times I have tried to proxy it I havnt gotten much out of it, but still won the games.

Anyway thanks for the advice guys. and if someone pulls those IG lasecannons, then that means I'm just more dead than usual

Septimus wrote:

You're implying that my list is bad (reasonable I guess as most people have bad lists)... but you don't even consider that several armies don't have access to grenades, or another answer to an iron clad first turn charge, to go with the example scenario.

As a TO it's my job to ensure a level playing field for all legal armies.

It's not that bad if you have an army that has access to awesome AT grenades - but not all armies can do that. Besides, is it fair that you have to make a list with enough wych bubble wrap to prevent a lucius pattern alpha strike? How many wyches do you need to mitigate 2 lucius pattern pods for a mere 130 points?

Lucius pods only take 1 Fast choice each and are pretty cheap for what you get; the ability to tie key units in a lot of different army builds.

What about tyranids?

Daemons?

Tau? I don't think tau have any AT grenades - if they have I have never seen a tau player use them

Orks?

All the armies with S6 grenades - that's not going to be much help vs. AV13.

65 points for a complete game change where you force your opponent to castle? That's a bit too good for the investment.

For Imperials it is 5 point upgrade for meltabombs, which wreck any walker. For 25 points you can buy a powerfist which does the same thing. Orks have powerklaws, Nids have genestealers and their own MCs, Daemons have bolt, breath, and flying MCs, Tau have railguns and misslepods. The point I made is that if a list isnt built to kill a tank, then it has something wrong with it. Every list needs to have some AT, and a dreadnaught is no different, charging T1 or not. Last addition was full of things that could get charges T1, and even though this edition stops most of them, the tactics from last still apply to the drop pod. It is not overpowered at all against a balanced list. Infact if you are taking up 2 slots and one of them does nothing after T1, Im actually glad you did.

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Again, you come across like you only see it from a DE player's point of view. S7 does make quite a difference vs. rhinos, chimeras and flyers.
If you allow auto cannon turret chimeras, IG will be the only army that can take 10 (real) heavy weapons for only 50 points - it's not exactly like IG has a lack of that kind in the first place.

10 auto cannon turret chimeras deployed on the back line with inf + 1 autocannon inside (you could get more with heavy weapon team squads and stick 3 AC out of the hatch) - that's at least 40 auto cannon shots with 48" range ... and some guys complain about 3 GK psyfle dreads...

I do play other armies, and know the different from S6-S7, but you are also forgeting who is shooting that shot. Guard needing 4s to hit is their biggest weakness, and losing 1 shot makes a big deal against anything. Take a rhino for example. A multilaser has a 49% chance to get a result on the rhino, and the autocannon has a 50% chance to do the same effect on a rhino. The only difference is its easier to pen with the autocannon than the multilaser, but the multilaser is a better garentee for atleast a glance. Such a close statistical difference, I could care less about if he is taking the autocannon one or the multilaser one.

The point Im making here is forgeworld isnt really that bad. They are nice expensive toys that are either decent or absolutely terrible. The problem people have with forgeworld is their lack of familiarity with them, and they feel cheated when they forgot a gamechanging rule (like charging from a drop pod with a dreadnaught) and they call it OP because they didnt prepare for it. Ask your opponent what it is, and what is its stats and abilities, and then devise a way to kill it. Its like anything from any codex.

I dont know the rules for the units your talking about specifically, sometimes i thnik forgeworld additions do make things far too EZ mode though. Like i remeber back in 5th there was a FW land raider that ignored extra dice rolls to pen or something, which made melta and rending useless. If i recall it was only a tiny bit more than a regular land raider. But for some races it was a nightmare to counter.

Mud

Mudpuppet wrote:

I dont know the rules for the units your talking about specifically, sometimes i thnik forgeworld additions do make things far too EZ mode though. Like i remeber back in 5th there was a FW land raider that ignored extra dice rolls to pen or something, which made melta and rending useless. If i recall it was only a tiny bit more than a regular land raider. But for some races it was a nightmare to counter.

Mud

And they still have that (the achillies if I remember right) but my question is we always had vehicles like that. Take a look at the storm raven and storm talon, oh and lets forget the old monolith (which was no 2d6 or lance rule) and what about blessed hull landraider from BT??? If you played the old DE codex and didnt have wyches, you were pretty much screwed. GW has always had units that if your army didnt have a count too, it was a tough battle. It is up to you as a general to prepare for as many of those curveballs that you can, and if you know that Forgeworld is being used, that means you just have to prepare for a few more.

Dont misunderstand me, i agree with what i think your saying which is you need to cover all your bases or pay the price in dead models. I couldnt agree more in fact.

However that said i instictively dont like units or armies that you dont really have to think with them and your leadership/gameplaying abilites dont really influence how well they work they are just that powerful.

Again dont misunderstand, i dont know if the units being mentioned here are like that, but i think sometimes FW can drop a doozie like that, especially in the experimental rules. It usually gets fixed when it gets stamped though.

Mud

The hades comes in automaticallly on turn 2, no deviations, and the engineers (or veterans)come in on turn 3, again, no deviation...unless this has been covered in a faq I don't know about.

I think there are a couple fringe examples of forgeworld being game changing, but I think there are just as many examples of gw codex units being just as broken. Seems the biggest complaint against fw as a whole is based around ignorance.

@Shadow: imperials usually only get 1 melta bomb for 5 points, a few units can take melta bombs for all squad members but that's the exception not the rule.

It's not really the imperials who have a hard time countering such a unit as a lucius pod with an iron clad - it's mostly the xeno armies.

A powerfist? The chance of a fist hitting an actually killing a dreadnought is not that great.

Anyways, yes a lot of things could charge turn 1 in 5th even if you were first player - but nothing as easy mode powerful, and cheap, as a lucius. You could argue that people just have to L2P ... and I'll agree but even though a lot of people have heard about "bubble wrap" or the "rhino-V (or triangle)" tactic, I very rarely saw people actually do it.

I think that's why GW went nuts about changing the game so drastically that it's impossible to make a turn 1 charge as first player in 6th.

It's fine that people can and should take AT to deal with enemy vehicles, but a tau railgun is not going to be of much help when an iron clad is in cc in the middle of the tau lines.

You can't only look at the chance of a multi-laser or an auto cannon damaging a rhino as there is a lot of AV12 to handle too. Then a multi-laser hits with 1.5 shots, and can only glance, which it will have a 25% of doing. An auto cannon will glance or pen 33% of the time. An 8% difference is not much but it's there and it can actually pen AV12.
AV13, the multi-laser doesn't have a chance but the auto cannon will glance 16.7% of the time.

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The point Im making here is forgeworld isnt really that bad. They are nice expensive toys that are either decent or absolutely terrible. The problem people have with forgeworld is their lack of familiarity with them, and they feel cheated when they forgot a gamechanging rule (like charging from a drop pod with a dreadnaught)

Agreed.

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However that said i instictively dont like units or armies that you dont really have to think with them and your leadership/gameplaying abilites dont really influence how well they work they are just that powerful.

But this is the real problem. That unit is too good for what you invest and require zero skills to use.

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And they still have that (the achillies if I remember right)

They have - but it's expensive. Like 300+ points, can't remember the exact amount. Tau rail guns don't care about the achilles and DE lances don't either.

@Fraust: are you sure the Hades breaching drill automatically come in on turn 2? And that it doesn't deviate? Unless the rules have been completely changed for it, it has to roll a scatter die when it comes in and it's automatically in reserve but you have to roll for it like all other reserves.

Septimus wrote:

But this is the real problem. That unit is too good for what you invest and require zero skills to use.

There isn't much point debating the skill required to use a unit in 40k. The game isn't balance and there will always be point and click armies that rely on a gimmick, whether it's drop pods, twinlinked everything with Vulcan, infiltrating terminators with fleet, Grandmaster's Grand Strategy etc. Hell guard tend to sit back and shoot most of the time, which other than target priority doesn't take much thought against most opponents. The fact is some armies require a lot more thought than others, some armies are very one dimensional and don't allow for creative play, it's just the way it is.

The Hades Drill for example is just an annoying gimmick that isn't much of a threat to a mobile army like DE, but would absolutely wreck and ork kan wall or an elite army. I listed it earlier because it's one hell of a surprise if you have never seen it in play before and has about a page of rules (the rules are available from the forge world website here for those who are interested).

That being said I would be hard pressed to find a forge world unit that is more "broken" than some of the things in the Necron or Grey Knight codex, or more cost effective than the vendetta or grey hunters.

As for dreadnoughts assaulting first turn, it's only really a problem for units that cost more than the Ironclad + Lucius Pod, that will generally be death-star units that should have a way of dealing with dreads. Why? Because of being able to chose to flee when fighting a unit you can't hurt.

Two examples.

Tau fire warrior squad of twelve gets charged by the dread, they chose to fall back get swept and killed, the dread gets annihilated by fission blasters or rail-guns, reasonable trade. If the fire warriors had a single gun-drone in the squad they would have been I4 for sweeping advance and had a reasonable chance of getting away.

Reaver squad of nine gets charged, and don't manage to kill the dread with overwatch, they can't hurt the dread in CC so elect to run away, I6 means they have a good chance of getting away.

Both these examples leave the ironclad exposed in his opponents turn of shooting. Add to this the fact that the pod scatters and charge ranges are unreliable, and using a lucius drop pod ironclad is a bit of a gamble.

On the other hand I can understand wanting to stick to GW 6th ed design concept of no first turn charges, the only problem being that you would then have to ban vanguard vets, and those special gene stealers.

In conclusion I think the biggest problem with forgeworld is it has a lot of surprises and gimmicks people are not aware of, and this ignorance is a huge advantage for anyone using a forge world unit. It's a lot harder to "know your enemy" when they have a forgeworld book and knowing what your opponents army is capable of is one of the keys to victory. That is why personally I'm not the biggest fan of forgeworld.

Missed the fact I was asked a direct question a while back, sorry. Found the PDF of the Krieg update...
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/k/kreig.pdf

Under Subteranean Assault it states the drill comes in on the second turn, and the engineers come in on the third. The drill follows the rules for deep striking, so it deviats and all that, with some exceptions, and then the engineers come up out of the "hole" next turn.