On "Deamons" in Commorragh

So I thought I'd split this discussion off of the one in the Drazhar thread. What are our thoughts on deamons, or warp enties existing within the dark city?

Personally I'm of the opionion that Deamons and warp enties are two different things. Deamons are quite plainly the more "sentient" species in the warp, they have higher inteligence and serve a higher purpose. Deamons serve the gods, and they're good at it. Deamons are characters like the Skulltaker they have their own personalities and are, if I can use this word...individuals, people.

Warp enties on the other hand are the lesser animals of the warp. They don't possess the higher inteligence of the deamons, they act purely on instinct. Things such as warp levithans and Khymerae fall into this catagory (as I believe would Juggernaughts although they're on their way to being deamons in their own right).

So with this distinction in mind, which I feel the DE would share a similar distinction, I think the prescence of warp enties within the dark city is possible (well we know this) and is tollerated because they can be controlled. They have little to no link back to the bigger threats which live in the warp and so pose a minimal threat to the city.

Something with a higher connection though is considered dangerous, prime example of this is the Baron and his farseer as well as the minor incursion which forced a subrealm to collapse.

By looking at this approach this allows for things which we already know, such as where the web and the warp bleed into each other (dark gateway style). Creatures of the warp can exist in the webway, and the dark city but there is a fine line which shouldn't be crossed.

What are your thoughts?

I had a decent post that got deleted. *shrug* Don't see myself going into all over again.

Sorry to hear it, was hoping breaking into it's own topic would help avoid such situations. Unfortunettly I didn't see the posts before they were deleted so can't comment. But if you do feel like throwing in two cents later you're more than welcome, it's always good to hear all approaches to these subjects.

Preacher wrote:

Warp enties on the other hand are the lesser animals of the warp. They don't possess the higher intelligence of the deamons, they act purely on instinct. Things such as warp levithans and Khymerae fall into this category (as I believe would Juggernauts although they're on their way to being deamons in their own right).

So with this distinction in mind, which I feel the DE would share a similar distinction, I think the prescence of warp enties within the dark city is possible (well we know this) and is tollerated because they can be controlled. They have little to no link back to the bigger threats which live in the warp and so pose a minimal threat to the city.

Something with a higher connection though is considered dangerous, prime example of this is the Baron and his farseer as well as the minor incursion which forced a subrealm to collapse.

By looking at this approach this allows for things which we already know, such as where the web and the warp bleed into each other (dark gateway style). Creatures of the warp can exist in the webway, and the dark city but there is a fine line which shouldn't be crossed.

What are your thoughts?

I pretty much agree with you, so I am only going to emphasize a few things and argue minor points. Daemons are warp entities, ones defined by their connection to the emotions of sentient creatures of the material world. Intelligence is not the cut-off line, so a Juggernaut is just as much a demon as the Bloodletter that rides it.

However, the Empyrean can, did, and does support life with no connection to reality as we know it. Warp spiders, for one, evolved in the Warp and defend the Webway because they live there, not because the ancient Eldar bound them to it. In the same vein, an Enslaver, for all it's predation on psykers, is not a daemon. It eats psychic energy like a Daemon, but it is a natural creature that is not formed from the feelings and sensation of material minds. Again, intelligence is not the delineating factor here; the Enslavers seem to be sentient and sapient according to Dark Heresy and not vulnerable to daemon-hunting weaponry.

This distinction made, it seems obvious that the Kymerae are Daemons. Daemons formed from the emotional responses to physical pain. So why do the Dark Eldar allow their existence?
I think there is a good reason, if you'll allow me to dip into metaphor for a bit.

The Warp is like an ocean, and the Webway is a kind of artificial lagoon or dam. It is created to hold water(souls) in a certain area, thus isolating and protecting them from whatever contaminants float around in the larger sea.

So the Webway is essentially a piece of the Warp that has been sealed off from the rest of the Empyrean. We know that, in the larger Empyrean, pain and pleasure usually strengthen Slaanesh, but because the Webway is separate from the domains Slaanesh can enter, that doesn't happen. I think that this would result in the creation of Daemons of Pain like the Kymerae, but unlike most Daemons, I think they would be relatively subservient to Dark Eldar bold enough to try. The torment that gives the Kymerae form is that of the same slaves whose souls the Dark Eldar savor and consume, so in the end the Kymerae are little more than weaker Daemonic versions of the Dark Eldar themselves. This, synergy, for lack of a better word, combined with the isolation of the Webway preventing the Kymerae being subsumed into the emotional vortex of Slaanesh, results in a Daemon reliable and enough to not be killed on principle.

As for why the Mandrakes are tolerated, I think there are three reasons. One, no one truly knows if the Mandrakes are actually Daemonic or not. Given that their presence results in mere physical cold and no unnatural emotional damage, it is entirely possible that they are a hybrid with less soul-imperiling warp entities instead of Daemons.
Two, Vect has a pact with the Mandrakes that seems considerably stronger than most. Even if one Kabal was ambitious enough to try to kill every last Mandrake, I doubt they would be stupid enough to anger Vect as well by attacking an ally of his.
Three, as terrifying as they seem to be to other Dark Eldar, they can be bargained with without bartering your soul, don't seem to be psychic in any way, and they don't seem to act as a unified threat to Commoragh at large. Better the Devil you can deal with than the multitudes you can't I suppose.

Once again Spanna you manage to understand and expand on my views most eloquently, I must doff my cap to you sir. And you are forgiven for dipping into metaphore as it's done so well and explains things very nicely. So much so I think I may have to use it myself in the future.

As for Mandrakes, I've a few theories on these myself but that may have to wait till later as I should really be leaving for work. (Gotta pay for my plastic crack somehow.)

The Dark Eldar don't seem to have any problems with using lesser Warp entities (Chimerae, Medusae and quite likely a lot of other things). Individual Daemons (lesser ones atleast. A single greated Daemon is already a very dangerous being) wouldn't necessarily be particularly dangerous eighter, but the don't want to risk a Daemonic incursion, which in the Webway could have catastrophic results (think of the Webway as an underwater tunnel. Daemonic incursion is somebody making a hole in the tunnel wall. The end result is large sections flooding or collapsing). The same reason they don't use psykers.

I wonder if the Warp Beasts of the last codex and the Kymerae have to be summoned into existence like daemons are. As far as I know the only way for a Daemon to manifest is through possession of a psyker or entry through a warp portal.

Hasoroth wrote:

I wonder if the Warp Beasts of the last codex and the Kymerae have to be summoned into existence like daemons are. As far as I know the only way for a Daemon to manifest is through possession of a psyker or entry through a warp portal.

The codex says that beast masters have to go on "dream-quests" to hunt them and that they "can draw entire packs...across the veil to the physical dimension to do their bidding." The Khymera are specifically noted to form around nightmares, and it is not said if beast masters call them directly into Commorragh. It is noted that they are called into realspace, however. They are certainly called forth from somewhere to elsewhere, though.

Are we excepting webway denizens as daemons though? The Medusae are noted as "strange creatures of the Webway," and are never suggested to be from the warp in any way. The Webway is not the warp, Spanna and Nomic have both explained it wonderfully as being akin to an underwater tunnel (The Rapture of Bioshock immediately comes to my mind). There's another example of Webway denizens in the Arcane Wargear section: the Dark Gate. The entry notes that "impossible entities" make their homes in sealed off parts of the Webway, but it is not said where they are from or if they are daemonic in nature or not.

On to the subject of Mandrakes. Their origins are not certain. They could have daemonic heritage, they could be living shadows, they could be something more entirely. We only have speculation here, nothing solid to go on.

Sorry, poor phrasing on my part, I meant to say since we seem to have accepted that a daemon is a specific class of warp denizen than do the methods that apply to summoning daemons apply to summoning other warp denizens? The answer seems to be yes although a "dream-quest" sounds like a more...natural way of commanding warp entities to do your bidding.

Warp entities appear to be allowed, but Daemons (Daemons of Chaos at least, if we consider all forms of Warp life Daemonic) seem to be not tolerated at all. And I'm still not convinced that a Chaotic entity in any form would be allowed. The Baron was cast out of his Kabal and was set for executuion for bringing the bones of a psyker into Commorragh. Talon Crixx got completely sealed off from the rest of the Webway when a daemon army was summoned there.

Hasoroth wrote:

Sorry, poor phrasing on my part, I meant to say since we seem to have accepted that a daemon is a specific class of warp denizen than do the methods that apply to summoning daemons apply to summoning other warp denizens? The answer seems to be yes although a "dream-quest" sounds like a more...natural way of commanding warp entities to do your bidding.

If I had to guess, you probably could summon Warp Entities in the same manner that you would summon Daemons. However, I think that the Kymerae of Dark Eldar Beastmasters work a little differently. From the way the Beastmaster entry for them is written, it sounds like the Beastmasters become the Alpha Kymera of the pack so the pack will follow them out of the dreamquest.

I don't think the Beastmaster actually does anything to summon them into reality. It reads like the Kymerae can do that naturally by 'coalesc(ing) around vivid nightmares as a pearl forms around grit'.

I'll have to point out that the Baron got banished for bringing a live Farseer to his Archon's keep. He only killed him later and kept the bones. It's also not quite clear how well the Archon's reaction represents the usual way of handling psykers. The Dark Eldar don't seem to have problems wiht Harlequin Shadowseers, nor did they particularly care that the Marine Battlebarge they captured might contain a Librarian (atleast not untill he sent a call for help and the whole fleet showe dup to wreck face), and the Crucible of Malediction is made from souls of tortured psykers (implying they take psykers to be tortured). Psychic powers are certainly distrusted and it is forbidden for the Dark Eldar to use them, but the Archon may have been overly paranoid for banishing the Baron from bringing in a single psyker. Alternatively, it was because this particular psyker was an Eldar Farseer. Psykers can attract Daemons, and a powerful Eldar psyker, presumably stripped of his ghosthelm and runes of warding, is like a huge blinking neon sign for Daemons of Slaanesh.

Spanna uv Komor-AAAGH! wrote:

We know that, in the larger Empyrean, pain and pleasure usually strengthen Slaanesh, but because the Webway is separate from the domains Slaanesh can enter, that doesn't happen. I think that this would result in the creation of Daemons of Pain like the Kymerae, but unlike most Daemons, I think they would be relatively subservient to Dark Eldar bold enough to try. The torment that gives the Kymerae form is that of the same slaves whose souls the Dark Eldar savor and consume, so in the end the Kymerae are little more than weaker Daemonic versions of the Dark Eldar themselves. This, synergy, for lack of a better word, combined with the isolation of the Webway preventing the Kymerae being subsumed into the emotional vortex of Slaanesh, results in a Daemon reliable and enough to not be killed on principle.

In the spirit of admitting mistakes, I have re-checked the Codex entry for the Kymerae, and since they are specifically said to come from Daemonworlds, this paragraph of mine is wrong.

Given that most Daemonworlds are former worlds of the Eldar Empire, I still think that the Kymerae would be some lesser Daemonic version of Dark Eldar, but they do not form from the torment of the unfortunate in Commoragh.

Just as you all were saying. In Commorragh psykers are distrusted and there is a taboo against psychic powers because there is a POTENTIAL risk of demonic incursion. Every psyker is a risk to open a tear between the warp and the webway but doesnt mean that it happens often. Dark Eldar seem to err on the side of caution.

Back on the thread subject, Kymerae are demons and are goaded into Commarragh by the beastmasters and the like because they have no higher demonic "god" affiliation. Kymerae have no tie to the Chaos gods in the warp and as such they are not motivated or manipulated by the whims of the Chaos gods. They are neutral demons in a sense and that is why they are tolerated because they cannot become a conduit of a specific chaos god's influence in the webway.

Guys. Guys. Look:
Q: What counts as a Daemon? (p21)
A: Everything in the Chaos Daemons codex, Daemon
Princes, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, Obliterators,
summoned greater Daemons, summoned lesser
Daemons, any vehicle with the daemonic possesion
upgrade, Daemonhosts, Mandrakes, Kheradruakh the
Decapitator, the Avatar.


Mandrakes, Kheradruakh the
Decapitator

From the GK FAQ. Mandrakes are apparently considered Daemons, but Khymerae aren't.

Torpedo Vegas wrote:

Guys. Guys. Look:
Q: What counts as a Daemon? (p21)
A: Everything in the Chaos Daemons codex, Daemon
Princes, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, Obliterators,
summoned greater Daemons, summoned lesser
Daemons, any vehicle with the daemonic possesion
upgrade, Daemonhosts, Mandrakes, Kheradruakh the
Decapitator, the Avatar.


Mandrakes, Kheradruakh the
Decapitator

From the GK FAQ. Mandrakes are apparently considered Daemons, but Khymerae aren't.

Way to ruin the mystery you built up around the Mandrakes, GW.

Given that the Mandrakes had the characteristic 5+ Invul Save, this isn't much of a surprise. The Kymerae, however, are very interesting. They have a 4+ Invul save, so they are obviously more of a part of the empyrean than even lesser Daemons. I'd guess that they are entirely natural Warp Predators that the Beastmasters have managed to tame in some way.

I've always thought Mandrakes might represent the ultimate fate of a Dark Eldar who cannot keep his essence refreshed and forfeits his soul to Slaanesh. Making a shadow daemon out of the withered, black soul of a Dark Eldar? Sounds like something Slaanesh would do.

Interesting they left the khymerae out. Very interesting they left the Mandrakes in...

*cough* Told you so. *cough*

If it comes from the warp, it's a daemon. Mandrakes are made by Dark Eldar breeding with Daemons, or something along those lines, hence their daemonic attributes and being affected by daemon-hunting gear. The difference is, only some of them are dedicated to a god.

I believe that the Khymerae aren't counted as daemons because Grey Knights have preferred enemy: Daemons, and that could mean that you would re-roll to hit against the whole beastmaster squad, despite the fact that only the Khymerae are daemonic. There are no actual rules for preferred enemy against mixed-race units, as they didn't exist before, so they didn't count them as daemons.

Except the clause that mentions anything daemonic in the fluff. That includes khymerae.

Xelkireth wrote:

Except the clause that mentions anything daemonic in the fluff. That includes khymerae.

Torpedo Vegas wrote:

Q: What counts as a Daemon? (p21)
A: Everything in the Chaos Daemons codex, Daemon
Princes, Possessed Chaos Space Marines, Obliterators,
summoned greater Daemons, summoned lesser
Daemons, any vehicle with the daemonic possesion
upgrade, Daemonhosts, Mandrakes, Kheradruakh the
Decapitator, the Avatar.

Where? This is not a question of fluff, but of rules. The Khymerae counting as daemons would present a problem with the rules, so they didn't count them as daemons. They're quite clearly beings formed of emotions in the warp, but due to the rules, they weren't counted as daemons, simple. ^^

I stand corrected. I must have misread something somewhere. I apologize.

The fluff part is from the plasma weapons questions so at least you read it in the same FAQ.

Anggul wrote:

If it comes from the warp, it's a daemon.

Neither the Enslavers, the Umbra, nor the Warp Spiders are Daemons, all of which come from the Warp.

A Daemon is explicitly defined as a Warp Creature shaped and sustained by the emotions of Material beings. Some Warp Creatures do not. Even the Daemon Codex mentions that there were creatures living in the Empyrean before Chaos existed.

Warp Spiders dont come from the warp... As DoW2 says, they "Skim the warp." They just use the Warp to go faster. They are Eldar and if Eldar enter the warp, Slaneesh cannot resist sending legions of daemons to greet them.